Get off the torrent and stop seeding and let staff decide that taking the sample is an allowed HnR.
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Get off the torrent and stop seeding and let staff decide that taking the sample is an allowed HnR.
when we assume the exact same conditions (which is of course hypothetical) both should have the same ratio (in relation to the download). the person who downloaded the whole movie will have a higher buffer though and a movie to watch.Quote:
Originally Posted by renwickftw
How can that be? If the partial seeder only uploads 5mb, then the other guy will have to upload 233mb. Would that be possible, such a big difference? What about on the other end of the spectrum? The first guy uploads 60mb, the other guys uploads 2.8gb. Does that sound right? Frankly, if you were to do this experiment, I have a good feeling that the partial seeder will have a better ratio than the other guy. The fact is that partial seeders help people with slow connections.Quote:
Originally Posted by Polarbearwhen we assume the exact same conditions (which is of course hypothetical) both should have the same ratio (in relation to the download) and the same buffer.Quote:
Originally Posted by renwickftw
It helps the partial seeder to build his ratio but on the other hand then it also makes it harder for people with slow connections whole want the whole file to seed it well
Which is why it shouldn't be allowed :yup:Quote:
Originally Posted by Duckater
I agree with SgtMajor I also disagree with over seeding, only person that should really over seed a torrent is the uploader, another exception is if a seed box is being used to boost the torrent around a swarm when a slower speed uploader has put the torrent up :)
Wow, I finally found a thread where Polar Bear is wrong. Rare, but still wrong. Of course partial seeding is successful. Crap speed people could start a torrent as soon as it hits ScT and by the time they'd downloaded 10mb of say the 700mb file, the file could have been snatched 40 times. And then of course by the time they'd grabbed the lot (all 700mb), it's so old it'd take 2 weeks of constantly seeding to hit a 0.75 ratio on the file. Partial seeding however is a recipe for success. My whole bitv buffer (quite large) is testimony to it. A zero day file, partial seeding 20mb can net me a gb a day. If I grab the whole 350mb file, I very, very, very, and another very, very, very, very rarely can get a full 1/1 ratio on it.
So jars you are the one that is making it harder for othr people with slow connections of sct to keep there ratios on torrents
forget about the same buffer. i edited this. the ratio is the same, but the buffer for the whole downloader will be higher of course, because he downloaded more.Quote:
Originally Posted by renwickftwHow can that be? If the partial seeder only uploads 5mb, then the other guy will have to upload 233mb. Would that be possible, such a big difference?Quote:
Originally Posted by Polarbear
both offer a certain amount of chunks to the swarm. both have to download this certain amount before they can offer it. there will be a demand for these chunks in the 12 hours. one can offer 15mb, the other 700mb. since the conditions are exactly the same, both of them will end up with the same ratio. one has downloaded less, but can offer less. one has downloaded more, but can offer more.
it doesn't make a difference, that's why partial downloading doesn't improve your ratio compared to full downloading.
your eaxampe is very good by the way and hopfully makes people understand the logic.
I have 2 torrents running at the moment; a 9gb that is partially dl (75mb) and a 6gb that will be dl to completion. They are from different trackers of about the same speed and about the same numbers of peers.
The partially dl torrent is already finish but the other one is still downloading and will be completed in about 15 hr from now.
Let see if PB is right. If he is wrong I may get banned from this tracker for low ratio.
added: my max seed is 60/30kb
The time sccale to seed to the same ratio would be different if was only torrent running as upload speed is slowed while downloading so the time scale if seeded at 100% time would take longer in proportion due to extra amount down loaded
Quote:
Originally Posted by TP635
A lot of this will depend on seeder to leecher ratio as well as speeds of both sets
I don't believe so, Duckater, I don't actually partial seed on ScT. I seed forever there and it takes an eternity for me to hit one one. While I do have a crap connection (fibre optic is arriving quite soon), ScT has free packs there's no need to partial seed there.
Although I dont agree that they will be the same ratio, I understand where you are coming from. From my eyes, what you are saying is not the reality. Let's just hope that I'm wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Polarbearforget about the same buffer. i edited this. the ratio is the same, but the buffer for the whole downloader will be higher of course, because he downloaded more.Quote:
Originally Posted by renwickftw
both offer a certain amount of chunks to the swarm. both have to download this certain amount before they can offer it. there will be a demand for these chunks in the 12 hours. one can offer 15mb, the other 700mb. since the conditions are exactly the same, both of them will end up with the same ratio. one has downloaded less, but can offer less. one has downloaded more, but can offer more.
it doesn't make a difference, that's why partial downloading doesn't improve your ratio compared to full downloading.
your eaxampe is very good by the way and hopfully makes people understand the logic.
Was joking jars m8 :)
Only reason I let me sct account go a few yrs back was due to slow connection and was a choice between there and few other trackers.
Still could not answer wether I let the right account go but still have me ftn, fsc etc accounts which at the time I valued more and decided means could not use it properly would be better letting it go creating another place for some one else.
I am totally against trading so no way was it going to be traded
Cheers mate. My sarcastic meter is way off tap when torrent talk is involved.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duckater
you can't compare two different torrents. even if they have the same number of peers, the swarm behaviour can be totally different depending on the speed of the peers. only if the conditions are the same you would see, that you will end up with the same ratio.Quote:
Originally Posted by TP635
since the discussion couldn't convince me otherwise let me summarize my opinion:
regardless where or when you download a torrent. your file ratio won't be different when you partial seed in comparison with a full download. stop the torrent after a certain amount of time: when you fully download you'll have the whole content, a bigger buffer and the same ratio.
I understand that, We will see what happen in 24 hr.Quote:
you can't compare two different torrents. even if they have the sam number of peers, the swarm behaviour can be totally different depending on the speed of the peers.
Polarbear...u are dumb or something...because they tell u to partial seed on ur home connections which suck! if u do that on a seedbox there no point obviously...but ur home connection like mine if its 40 kB/s up then partial seeding is sometimes necessary...understand?
Imagine that you are downloading a torrent that's divided into 6 blocks - call them Blocks A,B,C,D,E,F.Quote:
Originally Posted by Polarbearplease explain to me how seeding only a portion of a file gives you an advantage in the swarm when you compete with other seeders.Quote:
Originally Posted by tknaught
The partial downloader only downloads Block A. He is competing with one seeder who has all blocks. Assume that everyone's speeds are equal. If a new leecher comes on the swarm, he will see that there are two copies of Block A and one copy of Blocks B-F. He will request Block A from the guy who is partial seeding because that is the only block he has. In the end, the partial seeder has uploaded one block and has a ratio of 1 and the full seeder has uploaded 5 blocks and has a ratio of 0.83.
Now imagine the same scenario, however there is one partial downloader and 5 seeders. Each one of them will upload one block to the new leecher, however the partial seeder will have a ratio of 1, but the full seeders will have ratios of 0.17.
Now, in addition to this, because the partial seeder technically shows up as a downloader in the swarm, other leechers will be more likely to connect to him, since downloaders make both incoming and outgoing connections, whereas seeders only make incoming connections. This gives another advantage.
Now, this strategy can fall apart if a majority of the users try to be partial seeders, because they will probably all get the same blocks and have a lot of competition.
Partial seeding CAN (not necessarily 'will') be useful for new huge pack...with enough leechers.
the idea is that, for most connection, when downloading at max speed, the upload speed is diminished.
So, say if I download 1 gb out of 100 gb pack, from a connection like mine, it will take ~30 minutes. During that 30 mins, my connection will max out and my upload will be ~ 0 kb/s. However, once I am done downloading 1 gb, my download will go down to 0 kb/s (as i am done downloading) and i will be maxing out my upload instead, given that there is enough leecher. At max speed of my connection, it will take me like 2-3 hours to get my ratio to 1:1. In other words, it will take me 2-3 hrs to upload 1 gb back.
Now, during that time period, other leechers will likely be leeching at their max speed as well, hence their upload will be pretty low. Which kinda gives a partial seeder, who has partial portion of the torrent and will be maxing out his connection with it, an opportunity to upload.
BUT, partial seeding isn't good for long though. Once leechers have the portion of file you are partially seeding, your upload speed will fade out. For first hour or two, a partial seeder maxes out his connection (given that there is enough leechers) then his upload speed for that torrent will exponentially decrease.
edit: i just read it over, not sure whether what i wrote is understandable or not :-\
It's my opinion that partial seeding just sucks anyways... it only benefits a single user, but hurts the torrent itself.. i've read pretty this entire thread(started skimming when peeps started repeating).. and no mentions the fact it hurts torrents.. if you have 20 peeps partial seeding one part of a torrent how the heck is someone that might actually want that torrent to watch or play or whatever gonna get the whole thing!? it's a buddy fucking mentality, for lack of better terms... personally it drives me freking crazy when peeps partial seed.. it ends up killing the torrent sooner and frustrates other users whom otherwise would contribute to the swarm.. EI: help with everyones precious buffers... i've had no real problem with seeding from my home connection at the likes of s*t and b*tm*tv ...... if you have to manage yourself, plain and simple! to many users these days want huge buffers and big e-penises that go with it like yesterday... it's been proven that peeps with 30-40k upload can have decent ratios.. notice i said ratios, not buffers.. no one needs big buffers thats a want. it promotes poor torrenting imo..
only exception is like PB had mentioned.... if it's a pack with multiple items in it and only want one thing.... other than that the whole idea is stupid
Yes some one else with same thoughts rather than arguing if it helps ratios or not it aint needed and does more harm than good to the torrent and other users :)Quote:
Originally Posted by jasperr
It is in a way blatent over seeding and that aint needed either :)
i dunno what u are on either...i have giant buffers...and im a good member...maybe its because im an uploader :blink:Quote:
Originally Posted by jasperr
I posted earlier that an uploaders buffer should not be considered in same way as a general user on sites :)
what you are talking about.. is an entirely different thing... this really doesn't apply to uploaders.. it's a trick used by leechers... unless you do, do this also on things you download.. which being an uploader at places, that really would put shame on yourself for overseeding/buffering ..Quote:
Originally Posted by hitman51
well i am on a low speed connection as they say.. if it is a myth how come that any time i only leech a sample for a quality check i get a ratio of about 10 after a day and if i leech a whole release i am at 0,2 after a week? that alone proves you wrong pb.. if you start to think about it you might understand why it is not a myth ;)
i think that partial seeding for ratio building is just ridiculous though. if you need to do that, join another tracker :P
i had seedbox and i used partial seeding because its the best fastest way to build your ratioQuote:
Originally Posted by Polarbear
you have to know you are right when you say : "20 x 14mb = 280mb upload - 14mb = 266mb buffer, file ratio 20.0"
but you cant seed all the 700mb to 20 peer (its more hard and there is many seeder and leecher who seed too)
when you download small parts, you will use the full bw for uploading , so you will get max speed, but if you download at the same time you will not max your up speed
also there is the 'disk overloaded" problem, when the disk wirte all parts of 4.3gb file at the same time and high speed, it will be overloaded
but if it write just some part, you will not get the overload and you will seed at the same time
and when you finish the parts and start seeding it, you have the priority to seed,
for ex :
if you full download torrent and alredy finished parts from "1->10" but not finished the whole torrent yet and me did partial download for parts "1->10" i finish befor you wich is totaly logic (with seedbox or good speed) and i will be as a seeder on my utorrent , and i have priority to seed parts from 1->10 then you , so leechers will take from me first
well exuse english :P , but for sure partial seeding is better then full download if you want build your ratio
here's an experiment that everyone of you can do and that will prove my theory.
-find a popular tv episode from a 0-day tracker right after it's released
-partial download only one rar file
-stop your torrent after 12 hours
-take a look at the file ratio
next week
-grab the next epsisode of the show on the same tracker right after it's released
-this time download the whole thing
-stop your torrent again after 12 hours
-take a look at the file ratio
even if the conditions of these two torrents can't be exactly the same, i bet there won't be a big difference when you compare the file ratios.
try it and convince me that i'm wrong.
You download a full 4.3 gig DVD, and you let it seed for a 48 hour period, and for the sake of argument, lets say you upload 7 gigs (you constantly seed at 60 kbs). Now, you download only 500 mbs of that DVD, you let it seed for 48 hours, and people are constantly downloading this movie, and again you upload about 7 gigs (again, constantly seed at 60 kbs)...
Which helped your ratio more?
This is a plausible scenario, I've done it myself on trackers that allow partial seeding... Otherwise, I would never get out of that 48 hour hole.
that would mean that only 1.6 people downloaded the whole dvd from you, but 14 people downloaded your partial file. that's not possible when you seed with the same speed.Quote:
Originally Posted by twist off
yep total agree , see my sign lol i used partial download all the time (1.3TB from 35GB) , impossible to do if you use full download, and it will be more easy to understand if you try by your self from a 100/100mb seedbox , you will see the partial is betterQuote:
Originally Posted by twist off
partial seeding from a seed box like ruins things for others it bad enough from a home line
Aint gonna say no more on that but I hope 1 day some karma kicks in :)
traders who want to buffer their accounts for the next deal usually don't think a lot about karma.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duckater
So he was already not wanted in torrenting and just proved it even more :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Polarbear
But if there are 100s of people in the swarm, more people are able to get certain files from you. Very unlikely that one person will be downloading at a constant 60 kbs and all of those 60 kbs will be coming from me (unless, of course, I'm the only seeder, and they are the only leecher - in that case, no, partial seeding wouldn't be better)... However, partial seeding very popular torrents helps your global ratio tremendously.
I was going to post something along the same lines .Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckaterYes some one else with same thoughts rather than arguing if it helps ratios or not it aint needed and does more harm than good to the torrent and other users :)Quote:
Originally Posted by jasperr
It is in a way blatent over seeding and that aint needed either :)
That's why I'm against it.It's an extremely negative act.
Whether it builds ratio more or faster I really couldn't care less.
We may not like it, but if it isn't against the specific trackers rules (hopefully most tracker staff will read this thread and do something about it), then there's not a lot we can do except live with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by IdolEyes787I was going to post something along the same lines .Quote:
Originally Posted by Duckater
That's why I'm against it.It's an extremely negative act.
Whether it builds ratio more or faster I really couldn't care less.
You can't blame users for exploiting a loop hole, no matter how sour it tastes, and they will do everything & anything to "buffer" and publicise gleefully how they went about it, but I do wish trackers would implement a take it 100% or leave it rule (excepting samples of course, and packs, and there may be others, but the general thrust stands).
Well on some trackers should no need any wayas they operate a no ratio policy or it is ratio per torrent/seed time not over all ratio that is important
I don't know about you guys, but whenever I see the word buffer, I think of getting a nice blowjob.
I donīt do partial download nor partial seeding.
I did it long time ago and I didnīt see any benefit on it.
But I think that besides of being not so useful itīs not fair... except if you download the sample to help yourself to know if the torrent is worth it or not.