If your Foetus is diagnosed with down syndrome do you Abort?

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Originally Posted by j2k4

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Originally Posted by pentomato

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Originally Posted by j2k4

Killing what in the womb? A malignant tumor is alive to, should we leave it alone because of a few alive cells? Who are you to play GOD?
Mentally/emotionally people feel, love like you and I, but they can't defend theirselves in the real world.
These people haven't made any progress, you call progress to 12 people living in a house, knowing they might be abused?
Living in a house for them, it is the samething that not living at all, the only difference between a hospital and those group homes is that jobs are been created now.
I hate it when you see a person that has been tied up for hours, (something illegal) when their lunch is a few pieces of bread and they don't have a way to fight for their rights, when they are been push around, when their wrists are burn from those ropes they use on them in those houses, when they are been physically hurt and they can't talk.
And you are telling me we have made progress with these people? Get down from your cloud, because the only progress here is job creation, these peoples rights are worst than have ever been.
And the feeling of talking to an investigator to end this people suffering is amazing, it is worthwhile.
Don't you preach to me about their living conditions, you have done a terrible job if you worked in this field, you forgot that they not only don't know their rights, but they can't understand and assimilate what's going on with them and why, and the saddest part is, they can't fight back.
So your reasoning to bring somebody to this world, to suffer and be abuse in theory is beautiful, but in reality people like you create the abuse they have to endure in the course of their lives and all for what? Abort or not your reasoning doesn't make any sense, change jobs because you haven't help these people at all.

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Originally Posted by j2k4

So, then, as you say, better to kill them, right?

Tell me - why shouldn't they be killed postpartum?

Why shouldn't (by your own reasoning) mentally and emotionally impaired people be put out of their (your) misery?

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That way we woudln'd have a mentally retarded president in the White House again, eight years is enough.

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This is how your post should look.

Learn how to edit properly, dumbfuck.

You're not allowed to mix your unrelenting and unremitting idiocy with my postage.

If you can't do better than that, get your narrow ass back to the lounge. :mellow:

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Why are you out of control Sir, Madam?
You seem to get angry very easy, it is a shame, you remind me of Papa Oreilly or whatever his name is.
Anyway, when you have to insult anyone, you are a lesser person, of what you actually were.
Just breath and relax, life is to short.

Who is out of control?

Seems to me you're kinda sloppy, and I took note, that is all.

I didn't insult you, after all, you are a dumbfuck. :whistling

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Originally Posted by j2k4

Who is out of control?

Seems to me you're kinda sloppy, and I took note, that is all.

I didn't insult you, after all, you are a dumbfuck. :whistling

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Prozac would do wonders to you, just relax, life goes on.

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Originally Posted by pentomato

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Originally Posted by j2k4

Who is out of control?

Seems to me you're kinda sloppy, and I took note, that is all.

I didn't insult you, after all, you are a dumbfuck. :whistling

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Prozac would do wonders to you, just relax, life goes on.

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BIFF!!!


BAM!!!


ZOWIE!!!





Just cut the blue wire, dumbfuck. :whistling

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Originally Posted by j2k4

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Originally Posted by pentomato

Prozac would do wonders to you, just relax, life goes on.

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BIFF!!!


BAM!!!


ZOWIE!!!





Just cut the blue wire, dumbfuck. :whistling

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Is dumbfuck the only word you know? It is time to learn some new one's, no wait, Bush doesn't learn either, he is dumb, it must be you are imitating him, lol lol
Go to the beach and make air castles plase.

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Originally Posted by pentomato

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Originally Posted by j2k4

BIFF!!!


BAM!!!


ZOWIE!!!





Just cut the blue wire, dumbfuck. :whistling

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Is dumbfuck the only word you know? It is time to learn some new one's, no wait, Bush doesn't learn either, he is dumb, it must be you are imitating him, lol lol
Go to the beach and make air castles plase.

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Are you as smart as Bush, dumbfuck?

When you consider the sorry state of the US economy, foreign affairs, domestic affairs, and so on of when he took power 8 years ago, to the time he is leaving, it would seem to me that President dumbfuck isn't the brightest shining bulb on the tree.

Ironic?
It seems that this thread has been hit with downs syndrome
"a lower than average cognitive ability, often ranging from mild to moderate developmental disabilities."

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Originally Posted by Santa

Ironic?
It seems that this thread has been hit with downs syndrome
"a lower than average cognitive ability, often ranging from mild to moderate developmental disabilities."

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I'll echo that.

abort. And no I am not a cruel guy but it makes life for the parents much more difficult and for the child aswell. And I do not want to start about the when life starts....

Though I might say abort now, I do not know what I would REALLY do. This is my first opinion.

It's also a tremendous burden on the non developmentally disabled siblings, who usually wind up with the responsibility of taking care of their brother or sister once the parents pass. It's something potential parents need to take into account when wresting with this decision, because you're basically passing the responsibility onto your other children.

I'm not saying that should affect the decision one way or the other but it's something to consider.

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Originally Posted by winter

This is my first opinion.

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:blink:

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Originally Posted by nrfuller

It's also a tremendous burden on the non developmentally disabled siblings, who usually wind up with the responsibility of taking care of their brother or sister once the parents pass. It's something potential parents need to take into account when wresting with this decision, because you're basically passing the responsibility onto your other children.

I'm not saying that should affect the decision one way or the other but it's something to consider.

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Here in the united states mentally retarded people are not a burden on any siblings, families do not want these people, so they go to group and private homes, where families supossely take care of these people for more than $2500 a month each person, group homes take more money than private homes, (they are a big burden on taxpayers). Mentally retarded people go to day programs to spend the day, they get back home, they give them some food and there they go to their locked rooms till the next day, most times they tie them up, (something illegal in my state)so they will not bother anyone in the house or if they get violent. Is that a way to live?
We should know by genetic tests if the person is going to be mentaly challenge, so women could terminate a life of missery to someone that never asked to come to this world.
It is funny that here in this forum and everywhere else, men are against abortion, controling women has to end, this fanatic conservatives it reminds me of Saudi Arabia, Iran, afganistan, where they control women too. Women should decide, after all men will never get pregant.
It is not fair that mentally retarded people come to this world, and they are abused over and over.
That tax money should be well expend in other places in the United States.

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Originally Posted by pentomato

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Originally Posted by nrfuller

It's also a tremendous burden on the non developmentally disabled siblings, who usually wind up with the responsibility of taking care of their brother or sister once the parents pass. It's something potential parents need to take into account when wresting with this decision, because you're basically passing the responsibility onto your other children.

I'm not saying that should affect the decision one way or the other but it's something to consider.

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Here in the united states mentally retarded people are not a burden on any siblings, families do not want these people, so they go to group and private homes, where families supossely take care of these people for more than $2500 a month each person, group homes take more money than private homes, (they are a big burden on taxpayers). Mentally retarded people go to day programs to spend the day, they get back home, they give them some food and there they go to their locked rooms till the next day, most times they tie them up, (something illegal in my state)so they will not bother anyone in the house or if they get violent. Is that a way to live?
We should know by genetic tests if the person is going to be mentaly challenge, so women could terminate a life of missery to someone that never asked to come to this world.
It is funny that here in this forum and everywhere else, men are against abortion, controling women has to end, this fanatic conservatives it reminds me of Saudi Arabia, Iran, afganistan, where they control women too. Women should decide, after all men will never get pregant.
It is not fair that mentally retarded people come to this world, and they are abused over and over.
That tax money should be well expend in other places in the United States.

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What a glittering jewel of ignorance.

If your misrepresentations even approached the norm, you would be living in such an institution.

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Originally Posted by j2k4

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Originally Posted by pentomato

Here in the united states mentally retarded people are not a burden on any siblings, families do not want these people, so they go to group and private homes, where families supossely take care of these people for more than $2500 a month each person, group homes take more money than private homes, (they are a big burden on taxpayers). Mentally retarded people go to day programs to spend the day, they get back home, they give them some food and there they go to their locked rooms till the next day, most times they tie them up, (something illegal in my state)so they will not bother anyone in the house or if they get violent. Is that a way to live?
We should know by genetic tests if the person is going to be mentaly challenge, so women could terminate a life of missery to someone that never asked to come to this world.
It is funny that here in this forum and everywhere else, men are against abortion, controling women has to end, this fanatic conservatives it reminds me of Saudi Arabia, Iran, afganistan, where they control women too. Women should decide, after all men will never get pregant.
It is not fair that mentally retarded people come to this world, and they are abused over and over.
That tax money should be well expend in other places in the United States.

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What a glittering jewel of ignorance.

If your misrepresentations even approached the norm, you would be living in such an institution.

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Where is the ignorance in what I wrote?
Get down from luniland, because I think you are living in a dream.

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Originally Posted by pentomato

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Originally Posted by j2k4

What a glittering jewel of ignorance.

If your misrepresentations even approached the norm, you would be living in such an institution.

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Where is the ignorance in what I wrote?

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That post is plated in 24K ignorance, dipped in idiocy, and served with a side order of stupid.

To actually parse the length and breadth of it's assininity would overload the server.

Luckily, even a retarded person could ascertain it's lack-o-sense. :whistling

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Originally Posted by j2k4

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Originally Posted by pentomato

Where is the ignorance in what I wrote?

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That post is plated in 24K ignorance, dipped in idiocy, and served with a side order of stupid.

To actually parse the length and breadth of it's assininity would overload the server.

Luckily, even a retarded person could ascertain it's lack-o-sense. :whistling

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With insults you won't discredit me, prove me wrong, come on try.
It happens a lot with with fundamentalists when you don't have a valid argument, you attack the man itself.

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Originally Posted by pentomato

...the man itself.

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There is something wrong with that phrase - can you guess what it is. :whistling

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Originally Posted by j2k4

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Originally Posted by pentomato

...the man itself.

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There is something wrong with that phrase - can you guess what it is. :whistling

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Now you made me laugh. Anyway merry Christmas to you and yes I know what it is, thanks for correcting me I apreciate it.

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Originally Posted by pentomato

With insults you won't discredit me, prove me wrong, come on try.

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I am loathe to even attempt to clarify that which is so flatly self-evident.

To do so would be presumptive, you see. :whistling

If my partner had no input in the decision then I would definitely abort. I doubt I would be attached to a fetus that had a developmental problem enough to want to keep it and deal with the stress of raising the child. I am also pro-abortion if it's within a reasonable time after the pregnancy, which makes the decision easier and more straightforward.

In reality I wouldn't be 100% certain that we should choose this 'cause it wouldn't be solely my choice.

Honestly, I'd abort. Life can already suck for regular people. It'd only be magnified for them.

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Originally Posted by pentomato

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Originally Posted by nrfuller

It's also a tremendous burden on the non developmentally disabled siblings, who usually wind up with the responsibility of taking care of their brother or sister once the parents pass. It's something potential parents need to take into account when wresting with this decision, because you're basically passing the responsibility onto your other children.

I'm not saying that should affect the decision one way or the other but it's something to consider.

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Here in the united states mentally retarded people are not a burden on any siblings, families do not want these people, so they go to group and private homes, where families supossely take care of these people for more than $2500 a month each person, group homes take more money than private homes, (they are a big burden on taxpayers). Mentally retarded people go to day programs to spend the day, they get back home, they give them some food and there they go to their locked rooms till the next day, most times they tie them up, (something illegal in my state)so they will not bother anyone in the house or if they get violent. Is that a way to live?
We should know by genetic tests if the person is going to be mentaly challenge, so women could terminate a life of missery to someone that never asked to come to this world.
It is funny that here in this forum and everywhere else, men are against abortion, controling women has to end, this fanatic conservatives it reminds me of Saudi Arabia, Iran, afganistan, where they control women too. Women should decide, after all men will never get pregant.
It is not fair that mentally retarded people come to this world, and they are abused over and over.
That tax money should be well expend in other places in the United States.

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To witness such abuse and not notify the authorities would be quite the load to carry.

I make it a habit to drop by the group home my step son is in at all times of day and if EVER I witnessed his or any other client's human rights being violated...........suffice it to say someone would have hell to pay.

And it is quite sadly twisted thinking, In my opinion, to assume families of mentally disabled children place them in group homes because they do not want them.

The hardest thing I ever did was to agree to place this young man in a group home as a young adult. But I knew it was the best for him in the long run to become independent of me and established in his own community. A community that he thrives in and has become very independent and vital and productive in.

I am very concerned about the conditions you describe in your place of employment and even more so that it is allowed to continue by those of you witnessing it and obviously remaining silent...basically allowing such conditions to continue.

The very, very least of the blessings this young man has brought into my life (and there have been so many blessings) is the ability to ascertain the state of the heart and soul of others when approached by him.

I realize that unless you have lived the blessings, the fear of what seems a horrendous task ahead would lead many to abort.

I would have to 'keep'.......because I have been there and it is worth it.

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Originally Posted by Everose

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Originally Posted by pentomato

Here in the united states mentally retarded people are not a burden on any siblings, families do not want these people, so they go to group and private homes, where families supossely take care of these people for more than $2500 a month each person, group homes take more money than private homes, (they are a big burden on taxpayers). Mentally retarded people go to day programs to spend the day, they get back home, they give them some food and there they go to their locked rooms till the next day, most times they tie them up, (something illegal in my state)so they will not bother anyone in the house or if they get violent. Is that a way to live?
We should know by genetic tests if the person is going to be mentaly challenge, so women could terminate a life of missery to someone that never asked to come to this world.
It is funny that here in this forum and everywhere else, men are against abortion, controling women has to end, this fanatic conservatives it reminds me of Saudi Arabia, Iran, afganistan, where they control women too. Women should decide, after all men will never get pregant.
It is not fair that mentally retarded people come to this world, and they are abused over and over.
That tax money should be well expend in other places in the United States.

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To witness such abuse and not notify the authorities would be quite the load to carry.

I make it a habit to drop by the group home my step son is in at all times of day and if EVER I witnessed his or any other client's human rights being violated...........suffice it to say someone would have hell to pay.

And it is quite sadly twisted thinking, In my opinion, to assume families of mentally disabled children place them in group homes because they do not want them.

The hardest thing I ever did was to agree to place this young man in a group home as a young adult. But I knew it was the best for him in the long run to become independent of me and established in his own community. A community that he thrives in and has become very independent and vital and productive in.

I am very concerned about the conditions you describe in your place of employment and even more so that it is allowed to continue by those of you witnessing it and obviously remaining silent...basically allowing such conditions to continue.

The very, very least of the blessings this young man has brought into my life (and there have been so many blessings) is the ability to ascertain the state of the heart and soul of others when approached by him.

I realize that unless you have lived the blessings, the fear of what seems a horrendous task ahead would lead many to abort.

I would have to 'keep'.......because I have been there and it is worth it.

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Who said I haven't done anything about it? but I did and I had to talk to investigators, anyway whatever comes out of that I may never know.
It is the same as old people and nursing homes, the elderly are a burden and they end up there.
I am not saying every family of the mentally retarded do not care, most times they can't care for them, because the disability is to much, and some of these people get out of control a lot.
In this city there are houndres of group homes around, and I hate when these people send them out without a coat in the winter and many more things, and yes I always do something about it.
I am glad you care.

I am glad you have stepped up then, and do your best to see others are treated as you yourself would like to be treated.

I don't know how lines can be drawn and as many have pointed out their are varying levels of disabilities.

I guess we all have only our own experiences with things to draw from.

When I am in a rest home I am sure to drive the workers crazy with my drag racing in my wheel chair in the halls. Don't be putting me down for that. ;-)

Remember any policies and laws you put into effect now will affect you also when you get there!!! :D

Thank you very much, I will never be afraid of speaking out for those that need me, "Evil thrives when good people do nothing"
Been in a wheel chair or been old or mentally ill is not reason for anyone to abuse anyone, if those things bother anyone, they should not work doing those types of jobs, I know I will give them hell like around 30 more years lol.

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Originally Posted by pentomato

Thank you very much, I will never be afraid of speaking out for those that need me, "Evil thrives when good people do nothing"
Been in a wheel chair or been old or mentally ill is not reason for anyone to abuse anyone, if those things bother anyone, they should not work doing those types of jobs, I know I will give them hell like around 30 more years lol.

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Now, was that so difficult?

My only point was if you feel the handicapped are being short-changed by the world they live in (but we control), then better to advocate (which I have done, and which you apparently are doing currently) in their favor than to abort them as a default stance.

Use your human capitol for something positive, you see?

Unless, of course, you are an absolutely horrible, uncreative, and inept advocate, in which case you have nothing to say to me, correct?

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Originally Posted by j2k4

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Originally Posted by pentomato

Thank you very much, I will never be afraid of speaking out for those that need me, "Evil thrives when good people do nothing"
Been in a wheel chair or been old or mentally ill is not reason for anyone to abuse anyone, if those things bother anyone, they should not work doing those types of jobs, I know I will give them hell like around 30 more years lol.

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Now, was that so difficult?

My only point was if you feel the handicapped are being short-changed by the world they live in (but we control), then better to advocate (which I have done, and which you apparently are doing currently) in their favor than to abort them as a default stance.

Use your human capitol for something positive, you see?

Unless, of course, you are an absolutely horrible, uncreative, and inept advocate, in which case you have nothing to say to me, correct?

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Damn you j2k4 I was missing you man, how are you?
I know, to abort anyone it is a little extreme too, I know that.
If I was horrible my dear friend, I would not talk so much about the abuse, I prefer to go out of my way, putting my job in danger, but knowing that someone will be better because I did something about it.
Happy new year to you, I hope 2009 will be better than this one we are about to end.
Nice to see you again, happy new year.

I chose abort because I'd first have a Pre-Implantation Genetic Diagnosis done on the embryo. The major chromosome-level genetic disorders (like Down Syndrome) can be identified, and in the embryo there are only a few cells, so I really don't understand any non-religious, non-monetary reason not to have this done.

Breakthrough in Prenatal Screening for Down Syndrome

January 29th, 2009 by Femina
Lenetix Announces Successful Study of Improved Non-invasive Test Procedure
Lenetix, Inc. announced a significant step in the development of an improved first and second trimester non-invasive fetal chromosomal screening test to detect Down syndrome and other genetic fetal conditions. Lenetix presented preliminary study results at the 29th annual Society for Maternal-Fetal Medicine Conference in San Diego that indicate a potential breakthrough in testing quality and accuracy while preserving the safety of mother and fetus.
The maternal serum test developed by Lenetix medical director Dr. Stephen A. Brown at the University of Vermont incorporates the use of methylation-sensitive amplification (MSA) of fetal nucleic acid markers. In the preliminary studies, more than ten clinical plasma specimens of various ethnicities provided by clinical partners were tested with clinical partners using the MSA approach developed by Dr. Brown. Data from pilot studies indicate that highly accurate screening for common fetal autosomal (Trisomy 18, 21) and sex chromosomal (47, XXY) chromosome abnormalities is feasible, particularly in the first trimester of pregnancy when MSA features of early pregnancy-derived cells can be leveraged. This approach affords diagnostic confirmation by CVS, an invasive first trimester procedure, or genetic amniocentesis in the early 2nd trimester.
"The technique described by Dr. Brown and his team at Lenetix will create a revolution in prenatal diagnosis," said study investigator Allan Fisher, M.D., FACOG, FACMG. "This testing will ultimately decrease the number of amniocenteses, and thus reduce the number of miscarriages caused by amniocenteses. It will also help us identify patients who will need an amniocentesis or CVS where we may have missed them before. A better test that produces fewer false positives and negatives drives better patient care, and that's exciting for the future."
"Our preliminary results are extraordinarily encouraging, and complement nicely the work of other investigators whose efforts have focused heretofore in the 2nd trimester," said Lenetix president and CEO Leonard H. Kellner. "Such breakthroughs in improvements of current maternal serum screening for fetal aneuploidy, including fetal Down syndrome, will lead to better quality of screening and most certainly will result in less unnecessary, invasive diagnostic testing."
Source: Lenetix, Inc.

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Originally Posted by 100%

Breakthrough in Prenatal Screening for Down Syndrome

January 29th, 2009 by Femina
Lenetix Announces Successful Study of Improved Non-invasive Test Procedure
Lenetix, Inc. announced a significant step in the development of an improved first and second trimester non-invasive fetal chromosomal screening test to detect Down syndrome and other genetic fetal conditions. Lenetix presented preliminary study results at the 29th annual Society for Maternal-Fetal Medicine Conference in San Diego that indicate a potential breakthrough in testing quality and accuracy while preserving the safety of mother and fetus.
The maternal serum test developed by Lenetix medical director Dr. Stephen A. Brown at the University of Vermont incorporates the use of methylation-sensitive amplification (MSA) of fetal nucleic acid markers. In the preliminary studies, more than ten clinical plasma specimens of various ethnicities provided by clinical partners were tested with clinical partners using the MSA approach developed by Dr. Brown. Data from pilot studies indicate that highly accurate screening for common fetal autosomal (Trisomy 18, 21) and sex chromosomal (47, XXY) chromosome abnormalities is feasible, particularly in the first trimester of pregnancy when MSA features of early pregnancy-derived cells can be leveraged. This approach affords diagnostic confirmation by CVS, an invasive first trimester procedure, or genetic amniocentesis in the early 2nd trimester.
"The technique described by Dr. Brown and his team at Lenetix will create a revolution in prenatal diagnosis," said study investigator Allan Fisher, M.D., FACOG, FACMG. "This testing will ultimately decrease the number of amniocenteses, and thus reduce the number of miscarriages caused by amniocenteses. It will also help us identify patients who will need an amniocentesis or CVS where we may have missed them before. A better test that produces fewer false positives and negatives drives better patient care, and that's exciting for the future."
"Our preliminary results are extraordinarily encouraging, and complement nicely the work of other investigators whose efforts have focused heretofore in the 2nd trimester," said Lenetix president and CEO Leonard H. Kellner. "Such breakthroughs in improvements of current maternal serum screening for fetal aneuploidy, including fetal Down syndrome, will lead to better quality of screening and most certainly will result in less unnecessary, invasive diagnostic testing."
Source: Lenetix, Inc.

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Sounds like a fait accompli, huh?

I guess I'd choose that over the "partial-birth" option...no, wait - the first one...no, the second one...oh, that's right: They're both "health choices".

Indeed
it ends with the same question.

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Originally Posted by 100%

Indeed
it ends with the same question.

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How to answer that question, then.

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Originally Posted by 100%

Ignas is getting his first baby, we had a heavy discussion about this.
He decided with his wife to not take an abortion. They took a scan last week, the child is fine.

It is possible to diagnose down syndrome at the first eccolog (scan) by looking at the shape of the spine.
To diagnose other malfunctions one needs to analyse the fluids which can cause miscarriage.

If you know that your future child is diagnosed with down syndrome would you abort it?
I say yes
but when the moment comes i have no clue what i would decide.

arguments i have heard for pro abortion


- unable to take care of itself
- does not develop
- will not reflect you :huh:
- first 6 years are fine then the difference shows
- survival of fittest


anti abortion views i have heard
- depends on the level
- life is life
- what is normal?

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I know someone with Downs Syndrome that has his own flat, a job and appears to have quite a good life.

Wonder what he'd think of this Poll?








Actually, has he got Downs Syndrome or is he just a Mackum, can be difficult to tell sometimes.

Who deleted my post?

One can't say one's opinion, with bitter sarcasm, about the issue?

Dry pin-heads...

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Originally Posted by j2k4

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Originally Posted by 100%

Indeed
it ends with the same question.

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How to answer that question, then.

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You bastard! dare to ask me this question... :P

So yes even if you can predict your offspring's "failures" to put in the future tense.

Depending on what failure means in the future.

The answer to your question is,

Is the child sustainable.







edit: this answer is wrong but right.
.

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Originally Posted by 100%

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Originally Posted by j2k4

How to answer that question, then.

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You bastard! dare to ask me this question... :P

So yes even if you can predict your offspring's "failures" to put in the future tense.

Depending on what failure means in the future.

The answer to your question is,

Is the child sustainable.







edit: this answer is wrong but right.
.

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You called me a bastard.

Now, that's ironic.

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Originally Posted by j2k4

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Originally Posted by 100%

You bastard! dare to ask me this question... :P

So yes even if you can predict your offspring's "failures" to put in the future tense.

Depending on what failure means in the future.

The answer to your question is,

Is the child sustainable.







edit: this answer is wrong but right.
.

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You called me a bastard.

Now, that's ironic.

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Somebody had to say it lol lol

I voted to abort. But down syndrome is not the only genetical disorder, life for a person with down syndrome and his parents is very difficult but they are really harmless and some of them integrates themselves to society very well. There are actually other genetical disorders that science can't predict before birth, like mentall illness, psychopath, etc.

I say abort, but it would be much different and harder to let go if the situation ever arose, especially for the woman.