Smoking in Scotland

Lynx......do you have a good link to a newspaper in Ireland? I would like one.

I can tell you from experience, as one who has smoked outside during a snowstorm...........you aren't out there long. I think the breathing of the cold air as you smoke doubles the nicotine to your brain!!! :D


But I have a very silly theory. Could some of the health problems attributed to smokers themselves be attributed to very cold air getting in the lungs due to having to smoke out in the very cold air? :blushing: And that type of thinking is one very big rationalization, I know. :lol:

If this was brought in England (and it will probably happen) I can still nip out the pub for a smoke outside though?

Bit of a bother but perhaps I'll smoke less on a night out.

What about beer gardens? :unsure:

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Originally Posted by Withcheese

If this was brought in England (and it will probably happen) I can still nip out the pub for a smoke outside though?

Bit of a bother but perhaps I'll smoke less on a night out.

What about beer gardens? :unsure:

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Beer Gardens are exempt as far as I know.

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Originally Posted by Biggles

Beer Gardens are exempt as far as I know.

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Sweet.

I can see beer gardens getting popular even when the weather is cloudy and cold... :D

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Originally Posted by lynx

I think this is a different argument altogether. However, for many the same would apply to alcohol. But given that neither is likely to happen soon (I think someone tried the alcohol ban with stunning failure :whistling ) I can't see it has much bearing on this discussion.

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But of course. I am trying to introduce a different view to the discussion, that of someone who is trying to stop smoking but finds it difficult because of the availability of cigarettes.

I did mantion in my post that I realise that the total ban view is biased but I hoped that despite this it may make some realise that if smoking was banned in public places then it would make the battle to give up smoking that bit more managable.

They will still wink at me from behind the counter in the Newsagents but I will not have it blown in my face while having a quiet pint or seven.

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Originally Posted by manker

But of course. I am trying to introduce a different view to the discussion, that of someone who is trying to stop smoking but finds it difficult because of the availability of cigarettes.

I did mantion in my post that I realise that the total ban view is biased but I hoped that despite this it may make some realise that if smoking was banned in public places then it would make the battle to give up smoking that bit more managable.

They will still wink at me from behind the counter in the Newsagents but I will not have it blown in my face while having a quiet pint or seven.

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But would you stay in the pub on your own while all your mates went out for a fag? :unsure:

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Originally Posted by DanB

But would you stay in the pub on your own while all your mates went out for a fag? :unsure:

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I think I mentioned to you before but out of all the people who usually go out of a Friday or Saturday, there are probably only about 4 or 5 smokers out of 20 or so. An unusual percentage but ... ehh.

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Originally Posted by manker

I think I mentioned to you before but out of all the people who usually go out of a Friday or Saturday, there are probably only about 4 or 5 smokers out of 20 or so. An unusual percentage but ... ehh.

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That is strange.

All my friends smoke. Yup, both of them.

But seriously my local almost everyone smokes (bar-staff included), will be very strange if none of us are allowed to. We'll have the whole pub standing in the street like chavs...

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Originally Posted by DanB

But would you stay in the pub on your own while all your mates went out for a fag? :unsure:

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So gays are not allowed in bars?

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Originally Posted by manker

I think I mentioned to you before but out of all the people who usually go out of a Friday or Saturday, there are probably only about 4 or 5 smokers out of 20 or so. An unusual percentage but ... ehh.

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ah, you should know my memory isn't the greatest :blushing:

I rescind the question then :frusty:

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Originally Posted by hobbes

So gays are not allowed in bars?

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:D :lol:

I did let that go because we're in teh serious part of the board. Bad hobbes.

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Originally Posted by manker

:D :lol:

I did let that go because we're in teh serious part of the board. Bad hobbes.

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:blushing:

I'll be in the lounge if you need me.

Anyway, we were talking about smoking in public places, I believe.....

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Originally Posted by Biggles

Beer Gardens are exempt as far as I know.

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How many people smoke beer gardens?:wacko:

If so many people want complete smoke free places, why don't pubs, restaurants do as the public asks? just a sign on the front smoke free.
But also give people the right to have smoking places.
That way people can choose where they wanna be, they're free to choose themself. If the majority wants smoke free i'm pretty sure that almost all clubs/pubs and restaurants will turn smoke free.... just because they want to attract people

But the dictatorship of the non smokers probably try to prevent that, just because they know that smoking places will always be more fun to visit, then places that the saltless non smoking Jerks visit. :nuke:

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Originally Posted by Everose

Lynx......do you have a good link to a newspaper in Ireland? I would like one.

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Jetje once posted a fantastic link to a site that linked to newspapers across the globe. Unfortunatly I lost it in a crash, so maybe we could be lucky and have him post this again, I am sure some of us would be greatly appreciated.

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Originally Posted by jetje

If so many people want complete smoke free places, why don't pubs, restaurants do as the public asks? just a sign on the front smoke free.
But also give people the right to have smoking places.
That way people can choose where they wanna be, they're free to choose themself. If the majority wants smoke free i'm pretty sure that almost all clubs/pubs and restaurants will turn smoke free.... just because they want to attract people

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The problem with this is that the majority of people who are chanting for a smoking ban do not in fact visit these places anyway. It seems that these people get a profound ego boost when they are able to control others to such a degree.

I see two problems with the way the "smoke-free" environments are being forced down our throats.

Firstly, the object group ( in this case, smokers) are demonized/marginalized as morally or socially deficient, thus making it easier and more palatable to slap them with sin-taxes.
Personally, I dislike chewing gum...I'd love to see a public ban on that disgusting habit. Does my dislike give me the right to look down MY nose at the practisioners?
And please, DO NOT get me started on Spandex....

Secondly, the tax is regressive...if it works as planned the tax base shrinks, yet the state's need for the income does not, so it must find another group to soak for the money.
It's easy to scorn those who use tobacco ( or alcohol) so it's easy to justify taxing them unfairly, but when they are gone who takes up the tax burden next?

Finally, there are the egregious examples of "political correctness" ( one of J2's favorite sore spots).
In Boulder, CO., a cigar bar was forced to implement a non-smoking area.
C'mon, get real.

As an unrepentant smoker I can appreciate and accomodate the desires of the majority and make every effort not to inflict my vice upon them, but I've had it up to here with the moral superiority inflicted upon me in the form of sin taxes and restrictions.

Bah, humbug.

:01: :01: :01: :01:

clocker

as a non smoker i don't want to stop you smoking, i just want to stop having to involuntarily smoke.
i don't see you as "demonized/marginalized as morally or socially deficient" or look down upon you for your habit. i do feel sympathy for the considerate smoker, however you must admit that there are a huge amount of inconsiderate smokers and they are the ones that have brought this issue to the forefront by their inconsiderate actions.

The gum issue i will stand with you... I remember what the statue of liberty was like before the ban on gum...that and i hate the noise from people that chew with their mouth open.

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as a non smoker i don't want to stop you smoking, i just want to stop having to involuntarily smoke.

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K, fine by me.

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however you must admit that there are a huge amount of inconsiderate smokers and they are the ones that have brought this issue to the forefront by their inconsiderate actions.

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Actually, no.
I don't know many ( or any, for that matter) such people.
I'm sure they exist, but I don't see this happening myself.
What I DO experience firsthand is the totally unsolicited advice from strangers who feel compelled to lecture me on the evils of smoking and what I should do to improve myself.

I am obligated ( nay, forced) to put up with this from my mother, but from strangers....no.

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Originally Posted by clocker

K, fine by me.

Actually, no.
I don't know many ( or any, for that matter) such people.
I'm sure they exist, but I don't see this happening myself.
What I DO experience firsthand is the totally unsolicited advice from strangers who feel compelled to lecture me on the evils of smoking and what I should do to improve myself.

I am obligated ( nay, forced) to put up with this from my mother, but from strangers....no.

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Point 1:
It is kind of like foreigners condescending attitude when they tell you how you should run your country and who you should elect. The old moral highground.

Even if they have a point, it certainly makes one a wee bit defensive. Who the hell are you to tell me what to do?


Point2:

About peoples attitude toward smokers, cry me an ashtry, smokie the bear.
(Not a constructive or helpful point, I just thought it sounded funny, so there.)

Its all a big con.:) They are going to ban smoking everywhere so that they can legalize the use of marijuana.:ermm:


@ Clocker! egregious ? :wacko:

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Originally Posted by clocker

Actually, no.
I don't know many ( or any, for that matter) such people.
I'm sure they exist, but I don't see this happening myself.
.

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Perhaps as a smoker you don't notice it as much.

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What I DO experience firsthand is the totally unsolicited advice from strangers who feel compelled to lecture me on the evils of smoking and what I should do to improve myself.

I am obligated ( nay, forced) to put up with this from my mother, but from strangers....no

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well i've never seen anyone (apart from health adverts, doctors etc.) lecture a smoker in public of the harm they are doing to themselves.... although i have seen (once) a non smoker in a resturaunt have a go at someone that lit up and the smoke was wafting over his table ( funny how it always heads for the non smokers :blink: ) if a smoker wants to smoke i am all for that...they must not blame the tabacco industry for the incured illnesses... and please let me be smoke free.

There are 2 sides to the arguement "why should i not smoke when i am out"... the smoker has a choice...the passive smoker doesn't, so why should the non smoker give up their social life because they don't want to smoke?

You as a considerate smoker may do everything in your power to be considerate, but you can't control where the smoke ends up once it's left you.

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Originally Posted by bigboab

Its all a big con.:) They are going to ban smoking everywhere so that they can legalize the use of marijuana.:ermm:


@ Clocker! egregious ? :wacko:

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And make gay wolf sex mandatory.

http://www.boomchicago.nl/Section/Videos/AttackAd

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Originally Posted by hobbes

And make gay wolf sex mandatory.

http://www.boomchicago.nl/Section/Videos/AttackAd

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I hate to disillusion you Hobbes. But I have this strange feeling that those 'wolves' are not real. There is a possibility that they have had human bodies transplanted on them by the use of Photoshop.:(

But dont let that stop you from dreaming about them.:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by bigboab

They are going to ban smoking everywhere so that they can legalize the use of marijuana.:ermm:

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This is a great idea, cos then they can tax it, and fill the hole that less tobacco use will create... :D

Since I partake of neither, and both will be banned from public spaces, I couldn't give a shit..

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Bigboab
They are going to ban smoking everywhere so that they can legalize the use of marijuana

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Originally Posted by barbarossa

This is a great idea, cos then they can tax it, and fill the hole that less tobacco use will create... :D

Since I partake of neither, and both will be banned from public spaces, I couldn't give a shit..

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Doing puns now barbie?:lol: :lol:

Seems like we are to have some sort of ban in England & Wales too. However, smoking will be allowed in pubs which do not sell food. This seems like a reasonable compromise, but somehow I have a feeling it won't be enough for the rabid anti-smoking lobbyists.

I think they should ban chewing gum while they are at it. Someone is going to bring out, if not already, tobacco flavoured chewing gum. As if the streets and seats of cinemas, trains and buses are not enough of a mess with the stuff already.:ph34r:

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Originally Posted by lynx

Seems like we are to have some sort of ban in England & Wales too. However, smoking will be allowed in pubs which do not sell food. This seems like a reasonable compromise, but somehow I have a feeling it won't be enough for the rabid anti-smoking lobbyists.

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In otherwords...

Suburban "Locals" will have the ban, while the younger party pubs in the Towns/Cities dont...

They've already banned smoking in most public buildings here. There was no great upcry about it, since the smokers can go outside if they want. It's not just for the health of the general public, but for the health of the people who have to work eight hours in a pub. Even if they didn't smoke, they would be subjected to breathing it in each day.

:shuriken:

I once had an employee that insisted that because we had a no smoking on the premises policy he had the right to leave for a "drag" and not just during breaks. He thought he was being discriminated against. He didn't make it past his probabtion.

Then again:

http://www.searchlores.org/images/imisslun.jpg

There's money lost on sales, but also gained.

/me lights up a Marlboro

Imo: the good (less cancer) outweights the bad (tax on sales)

Only time will tell how things pan out, as usual.

The lost Tax-income will be added on other "goods", but I think the
money saved on a long run when ppl stops, or dont begin smoking
can be big numbers too, no?

Less dieing sounds good to me. I could live with that.

:)

My post above seems a little out of place, but there was a mention about the
losses on Taxes if the sales of smokes drops dramatically/suddenly.

I say the Companys who makes the smokes should get a Big Part of the Tax Cake.

And of course the loss would be panned out as Tax on other goods. But there would be savings also, is all im saying.

About the smoking outside, we got the Law in here (Norway) too, no smoking in Pubs,
and basically, It dont shake my boat at all, I can go outside and smoke.

It is a first winter under the Law and it will be interesting to see how many pubs
survive if there's a drop on sales as ppl dont go there no more.

It rains here a lot, I think the pub with some sort of Roof in front has better chance to survive.
The smokers dont want to get wet, especially the Ladies, what with the Make up and all that.

Me? After few beers I really dont care.
(thats the way it works, hehehe...and im not made of sugar)

I have a feeling this Law might be a step on a series of actions to
make ppl realise how stoopid The Smoking Habit is.
I dint think its smart to Cut The Smokes in a one swift move, (Teh Law)
I wish there never was Sigarettes to begin with.
;)

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Originally Posted by Mr JP Fugley

Does it make me rabid because I do not wish to breathe the smoke of others, I think not.

Smoke if you want, enjoy it night and day. That's a mater for you, so long as you don't impose it on other people.

Just don't do it where you force others to do it as well. If society chooses to provide non-smokers with protection from that horrendous and noxious substance, great.

We speak of human rights often. I consider the most basic of these to be clean air. So, tough if you want to preserve your right to smoke anywhere you want. I want to breathe anywhere I want, it's really not a great deal to ask for.

Is that PC enough for everyone.

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I did not say that all non-smokers were rabid, nor did I suggest that your right to breath fresh air should be infringed. However, you do not have a right to go anywhere you want. Have you complained about not being allowed into ammunition dumps? These are guaranteed non-smoking areas. Take the matter up with your MP, demand your rights.

When there are places which you may have to visit, such as public buildings, I completely agree that they should be smoke free. By and large I think the same is true in places where food is served, although I can see no reason why the same restriction has to apply to parts of the same establishment which have a totally separate function.

If you choose to visit somewhere you have to put up with the conditions which the OWNER decides are acceptable, it is his/her choice, not yours. If he/she decides to sell dung-flavour beer, do you have the right to demand that it is stopped, because it offends your sensibilities? Or would you simply stay away? If that establishment chooses to permit smoking, you have the right not to visit that establishment. If you don't visit your right to clean air isn't compromised. Why should you have the right to demand that the owner accepts your conditions?

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Originally Posted by Mr JP Fugley

Drink dung flavoured beer if you want. So long as I don't have to taste it then it is no business of mine. However if I find the smell to be offensive then yes I will complain about it. That's fair enough. If my Government then decide that dung flavoured beer should be banned in public places, then 1 up for the good guys.

Why would I wish to go into an ammunition dump, that's just silly particularly if I were smoking. The whole idea beggars belief.

With regard to the OWNER having total say on what he can and can't sell, or when he can sell it or to whom, that is just specious tosh. We have licensing laws, these impose rules with regard to what can be sold, to whom and for how long. We also have rules regarding environmental health, safety of customers etc. An owner of an establishment catering to the public must keep his kitchen, pipes etc clean and hygienic. To extend these rules to the air is fair and reasonable, at least I think so.

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But you were not talking about environmental health, you were talking about your imagined right to dictate to the owner of the premises about what he can and can't do with those premises.

If you don't like what he does with his premises, don't go there. If you feel he should be driven out of business by providing the conditions he doesn't agree with, you are completely at liberty to try - those are your rights.

But get up off your arse and do it with your money, don't expect/force someone else to do it with their's.

Whether you want to go to an ammunition dump is entirely up to you. Whether you have the right to do so is not, yet you seem to think you have certain rights just because premises sell alcohol, why is that?

Just because a majority of people do not like something does not mean we should ban that thing. It has absolutely nothing to do with democracy, it is called intolerance, but that's just a polite way of saying bullying.

You responded to my comment which was about pubs and rabid anti-smoking lobby. I already agreed that publicly owned places and establishments serving food should be smoke free. Perhaps you should do a little more reading yourself.

There's still the unanswered question. You seem to think you have certain rights just because premises sell alcohol, why is that?

So you can see no difference between publicly-owned places and privately-owned?

Let's take that concept to it's logical conclusion, how about you share your home, there are plenty of homeless people out there and the government should do something about it. What about your car, government action on transport is one of the big issues of the day.

Or does it only apply when it is someone else's property?

Fudge

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Originally Posted by lynx

So you can see no difference between publicly-owned places and privately-owned?

Let's take that concept to it's logical conclusion, how about you share your home, there are plenty of homeless people out there and the government should do something about it. What about your car, government action on transport is one of the big issues of the day.

Or does it only apply when it is someone else's property?

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A private property that is open to public access for business has no difference to a publicly owned property.
If you choose to take in a vagrant for the night he has to accept your smoking in your house, however if you run a hostal it is a public place the same as a library would be.
if you offer someone a lift in your car they have no right to stop you smoking...if you are a taxi they do.
I can stop people smoking in my house but i can't stop them smoking if i visit theirs.

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Originally Posted by Mr JP Fugley

To say nothing of what Pub is a contraction for.

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Well i was answering the "private property" question but it didn't actually occur to me the "public house" part....