Abortion: For Or Against?

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Originally Posted by Rat Faced

k, then its FOR... The womans Right to Choose

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Glad to see that you voted.

For anyone else, the poll is not directed as FOR or AGAINST like it's something you would like to see more of or your favorite team.

It's regarding a woman's rights which I thought was fairly obvious.

My apologies. :dry:

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Originally Posted by JPaul

I do understand your position and if it were only the Mother's rights to consider then the question would be much simpler.

However I also think that the unborn has rights too. In which case it is not a case of black or white. It is a case of balancing those rights.

For anyone who believes the unborn (be it child or fetus) has no rights then it really is a non-question.

I suppose what the whole abortion debate can be summed up by a couple of questions.

1. Is the unborn a human being.

2. Do they have any right to life.

If the answer to these questions is no (for the individual) then it is wholly down to the parents to decide. With the Mother having the right to make the decision

However if the answer is yes (which I believe), then it is no longer the black and white issue that you suggest. I believe that all human beings have inalienable rights. The first of which is the right to life, which outweighs everything else. So the unborn's right also have to be considered.

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Good post.

I don't believe an embryo is a person. It is the equivalent of a tadpole and before that, it's the equivalent of a protozoa.

To further the point, if one takes the hardline religious stance then abortion should be illegal under any circumstance.

No bullshitting around with incest or rape conundrums. The religious stance should be, "Have the baby no matter what."

So depending on what you believe is a baby or whatever, there shouldn't be grey areas.

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Originally Posted by Busyman

Read carefully. I said the 7th month is out of the question not the appropriate cutoff. Nice try though for someone who, hmmm, himself, hasn't voiced a stance. Maybe I can find it somewhere by using the Advanced Search. :dry:

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I apologize, B., I voted several days ago when I first saw the poll, but never thought to confirm this in light of the board's recent spasms; I now understand your pique, and have voted and verified same.

I would be interested to hear how you would divine the exact point at which life begins; I myself stick hard by the moment of conception, as it signifies the point at which the march toward a new life seems-forgive the term-fated.

I see no other more-or-less obvious point of reference.

Your thoughts?

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Originally Posted by JPaul

I can only speak for myself and my understanding of the stance taken by my religion. Which is not a black and white one. It is a case by case one.

However the default position is that abortion is wrong. It is seen as the taking of a life, there must be overwhelming reasons for that to be acceptable. The main one being, as you have stated the choice between one life or the other. The mother will take precedence.

For anyone who takes the same or a similar position to yours "I don't believe an embryo is a person. It is the equivalent of a tadpole and before that, it's the equivalent of a protozoa." then surely it is a non question.

I don't believe a tadpole or a protozoa has the same rights as a human being, but then I don't see how one can view an unborn person as not being human. I don't think we metamorphose into a human being. I think that is what we are, we may not look it in the early stages but it is what we are.

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Now we are getting somewhere. Explain how it is not black and white based your stance. Barring that the mother is in danger, where does case by case come into effect?

I mean, what other cases can there be (based on your stance)?

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Originally Posted by j2k4

I apologize, B., I voted several days ago when I first saw the poll, but never thought to confirm this in light of the board's recent spasms; I now understand your pique, and have voted and verified same.

I would be interested to hear how you would divine the exact point at which life begins; I myself stick hard by the moment of conception, as it signifies the point at which the march toward a new life seems-forgive the term-fated.

I see no other more-or-less obvious point of reference.

Your thoughts?

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That's my man!!!

I believe that life starts at the moment of conception as well. I just don't view a merged sperm and egg the same as a baby.

Btw, what case(s) would you view abortion as being kosher?

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Originally Posted by Busyman

That's my man!!!

I believe that life starts at the moment of conception as well. I just don't view a merged sperm and egg the same as a baby.

Btw, what case(s) would you view abortion as being kosher?

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:)

I cannot reply to your last as I am not Jewish.

I would regard it (however regretfully) an option to be considered only in case of rape/incest/survival.

Avoidance of "stretch-marks" (as was profferred recently) wouldn't qualify.

I'm interested that only 3 people were against, one gets the impression that the proportions would be somewhat more even from the media.

:huh: I don't know if you're referring to the legal side of abortion, I know here what we actually want appears to have little to do with laws made/amended.

I couldn't have an abortion myself unless it was an extreme circumstance, but I generally wouldn't condemn someone that has one.

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Originally Posted by SnnY

I'm interested that only 3 people were against, one gets the impression that the proportions would be somewhat more even from the media.

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You are noticing an effect of media bias:

Popular opinion (as defined by most feminists, aided and abetted by the major media) holds that the "gray" area (option 3 in our poll) does not exist, and the public whose opinion resides therein are no different than those who would choose the "black" (#2) option.

It does their "cause" no good to publicize the fact that this school of thought even exists.

now busy cleared it up i voted "for" as i believe in the right of choice, even thoughit is not a choice i would make myself

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Originally Posted by JPaul

It is always case by case, that's what case by case means.

Like I said I will not produce a list of possible scenarios. I have already mentioned a particularly extreme (true) case to illustrate the point.

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Well your true case was not a case of abortion so it did not illustrate your point.

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Originally Posted by JPaul

When do you believe that the unborn is entitled to rights, or does that only occur after birth.

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That, consequently, is my conundrum. I'm against partial birth abortions wholeheartedly

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Originally Posted by vidcc

now busy cleared it up i voted "for" as i believe in the right of choice, even thoughit is not a choice i would make myself

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I thought you were a guy. :blink:

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Originally Posted by Busyman

I thought you were a guy. :blink:

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Geez, and I thought I had left out the most important fact.... :lol:

Coming back late to this, and observing JPaul's comments, guess I must respond.

Obviously, no offence is taken in any way. The debate moved on...but my position at the time was one of ambiguity and provocation towards other issues... and I give you that. :)

Still, that debate still rages, and will continue for some time. :P



My 'opinion' if I have to give it is this...

I do not dispute the right to life of a human being, nor the repulsiveness of 'cosmetic' abortion.

Exceptions may and will apply, and they must be considered individually and pretty bloody quickly.

Abortion is ultimately the woman's choice although the father of the child should be allowed input.

I am against late abortion beyond say...12-14 weeks unless there is a very, very, very good reason.

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However let's be honest, how often is one talking about life and death, or a situation like the above. As opposed to the convenience of the parents.

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Besides getting into one's perception of "life or death", it should also be considered that mental health issues have a large role to play in the decision to abort or not...for many people, that is.
It really isn't anyone else's business if a woman chooses to have an abortion..
Abortion should be available, and not in a back alley.
I am sure some people make what some seem to refer to as selfish decisions, and, well...should that person be having a baby? How about a baby born with fetal alcohol syndrome, crack addictions, etc?
In some ways, I am amazed this is an issue for anyone,as it's no one's business.
Too much judgement..never know what a person's experience is unless you've walked in their shoes, and the bottom line is, we haven't...experience is unique to each and every individual,as is the way they perceive and process said experiences.
side note...for all the places abortion is illegal, I hope that ship keeps sailing that women can get on to have an abortion if so desired.

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Originally Posted by JPaul

It's the unborn's business.

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;)

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Originally Posted by JPaul

It's the unborn's business.

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Then that's something for the mother to take up with her maker.

Ultimately the mother is the vessel for life. She is in control.
If she consumes alcohol, indulges in smoking, etc. it can affect the baby.

Here's where black and white comes in:

If one sprout's the religious perspective that the moment of conception is where life begins them how can any instance of

possible birth defects
rape
or incest

be a reason for an abortion? What makes the unborn in these instances have a lesser right to life than the unborn that may cause stretch marks? :helpsmili

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Originally Posted by JPaul

Firstly thank you, no offence was intended. However, I must once again take objection to the time issue.

I remain of the opinion that one accepts that the unborn is a person, or one denies it. Any "time from conception" based argument must be rejected.

For the simple reason that it assumes that there is a moment, post conception that one becomes a human. That makes no sense to me, we are not tadpoles, we do not go thro' a larval stage. We are human, from the moment of conception.

The argument seems to base it's validity on when the unborn looks sufficiently human to be afforded the same right to life as the rest of us. The core of my being tells me that argument is wrong.

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Although again this can vary with religion. I read somewhere that the Zoarastrians held that the soul enters the womb in the 22nd week of pregnancy. Quite how they knew this I do not know. :blink: However, I suppose all religious revelations look a tad odd when viewed from the outside.

I believe there is a move to reduce the time limits downwards in the UK to 14 or 16 weeks (except for medical emergencies). However, as I understand it, 98% of existing abortions occur within this timeframe anyway so it wouldn't change much.

Oh yeah, no question. :no:

Imagine: have sex with a condom, condom has a hole, get preggers at 16/17 ect.

If it happened to me I would get an abortion, I might feel a little bit bad about it but I hate children and I don't want any. :ermm:

Why'd you feel bad about if you hate children anyway?

I hate them but I don't enjoy watching them die......well...not always. :shifty:

I believe it should be up to the woman so I am for.

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Originally Posted by SpatulaGeekGirl

Oh yeah, no question. :no:

Imagine: have sex with a condom, condom has a hole, get preggers at 16/17 ect.

If it happened to me I would get an abortion, I might feel a little bit bad about it but I hate children and I don't want any. :ermm:

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Anyone who feels emotionally old enough to emark upon a sexual relationship should be responsible enough to deal with the consequences. Unfortunately it is often the emotionally immature who choose to abort because they don't feel that they can cope with a baby...... only to discover that dealing with ones own emotions after having had an abortion is often the harder road to travel.

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Originally Posted by brenda

Anyone who feels emotionally old enough to emark upon a sexual relationship should be responsible enough to deal with the consequences. Unfortunately it is often the emotionally immature who choose to abort because they don't feel that they can cope with a baby...... only to discover that dealing with ones own emotions after having had an abortion is often the harder road to travel.

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This is a point that isn't made often enough.

Thanks, brenda. ;)

I agree that it can be a more emotional road to travel, however there is a huge difference between

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emotionally old enough to emark upon a sexual relationship

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and being emotionally old enough to raise a child.

Having sex is only as meaningful as the participants make it and can range from being the most intimate act of love to just something for personal pleasure without even knowing the partners name.

As i said already though one has to accept responsibility for ones own actions and make the correct decision appropriate to oneself.

I dont think any of us should be able to deciede, it should be legal, and should be decieded by teh woman. Why should a president, let alone a male president deciede?

For. I wish I had been aborted...

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Originally Posted by Petri

For. I wish I had been aborted...

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I'm truly sorry you feel that way, Petri, but, on the other hand, it's good to see you posting again.

Hope you stick around.:)

Someone actually remembers me? :blink:

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Originally Posted by Petri

Someone actually remembers me? :blink:

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We never actually chatted, but sure, I remember you.

Where have you been?

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Originally Posted by Petri

Someone actually remembers me? :blink:

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Damn right. :D Where ya been hon? Missed you. :)

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Originally Posted by j2k4

Where have you been?

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Originally Posted by NikkiD

Where ya been hon?

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Umm... nowhere. :whistling

Aren't we getting a bit off topic?

Meh... it's the off topic section. :P

They'll just banish us to the lounge, methinks.

This is the serious polls section you know, off-topic talk may be frowned upon in here.
Someone would need to report it to IKE or someone who cares, first tho'.

And I for one wouldn't dream of doing that.


Again. :P

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Originally Posted by Petri

Umm... nowhere. :whistling

Aren't we getting a bit off topic?

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I've already used the words "yes" and "no" in this thread, so anything else I type is naught but an expansion of my earlier remarks, and as such is well worth anyone's time.

Considering the author.

Me.

Of course.


:P

Nice to see you Petri :hug:

don't worry about being banished to thelounge, haven't seen a mod around yet :unsure:

Plus the occasional hi-jack doesn't hurt. :unsure:

OK, let's talk about me then. :P
I just uploaded my website the other day. It's not that interesting, but here it is anyway: http://koti.mbnet.fi/exec/

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Originally Posted by Biggles

Plus the occasional hi-jack doesn't hurt. :unsure:

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Do you mean in an 'Entente cordiale' type way?

Cordial or wine - preferably wine. :ph34r:

Petri - not a lot on that site yet is there? Plus was it a cigar or flower or was that simply a very cunning dig at a well known (ex)politician?