forgetting your roots

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Originally Posted by manker

You don't speak English, muthafucka.

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Hroðgar maþelode, helm Scyldinga:
"Ic hine cuðe cnihtwesende.
Wæs his ealdfæder Ecgþeo haten,
ðæm to ham forgeaf Hreþel Geata
angan dohtor; is his eafora nu
heard her cumen, sohte holdne wine.
ðonne sægdon þæt sæliþende,
þa ðe gifsceattas Geata fyredon
þyder to þance, þæt he XXXtiges
manna mægencræft on his mundgripe
heaþorof hæbbe. Hine halig god
for arstafum us onsende,
to Westdenum, þæs ic wen hæbbe,
wið Grendles gryre. Ic þæm godan sceal
for his modþræce madmas beodan.
Beo ðu on ofeste, hat in gan
seon sibbegedriht samod ætgædere;
gesaga him eac wordum þæt hie sint wilcuman
Deniga leodum."
word inne abead:
"Eow het secgan sigedrihten min,
aldor Eastdena, þæt he eower æþelu can,
ond ge him syndon ofer sæwylmas
heardhicgende hider wilcuman.
Nu ge moton gangan in eowrum guðgewædum
under heregriman Hroðgar geseon;
lætað hildebord her onbidan,
wudu, wælsceaftas, worda geþinges."
Aras þa se rica, ymb hine rinc manig,
þryðlic þegna heap; sume þær bidon,
heaðoreaf heoldon, swa him se hearda bebead.

Edit: just wondering, since you are telling others what they do and do not speak properly, what Africaneers speak proper Swahili? I mean there are over 50 different dialects of this language. Surely if trunk/boot seems to chaff you, have 50 different words talking about the same thing in 50 different places must drive you ape mad?

he was only pointing out that it wasn't officially english, he attached no value to his or or anyone's use of colloquialisms beyond that, he was just stating facts.

And what does your quoting of old english have to do with anything?

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Originally Posted by InMyPocket

Edit: just wondering, since you are telling others what they do and do not speak properly, what Africaneers speak proper Swahili? I mean there are over 50 different dialects of this language. Surely if trunk/boot seems to chaff you, have 50 different words talking about the same thing in 50 different places must drive you ape mad?

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I'm not telling anyone what they're speaking properly, only which language they're speaking. Is that okay.

Why would people speaking Swahili chaff - or maybe you meant chafe - me. I would say that there are far more than 50 regional variations of English and that doesn't bother me one bit. There are 57 varieties of Heinz and I'm okay with that too.

Do you have a point or did you just take issue with me teasing Busyman in that excerpt of mine you posted.

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Originally Posted by bigboab

Yes it is. In your statement it would come under the Trough definition of Bosh.

Websters Third International Dictionary.Volume 1.

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:dry: :lol:

I call a cuddle a cwtch, and that aint in the dictionary.

Btw, bosh isn't under that definition on dictionary.com.

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Originally Posted by manker

I'm not telling anyone what they're speaking properly, only which language they're speaking. Is that okay.

Why would people speaking Swahili chaff - or maybe you meant chafe - me. I would say that there are far more than 50 regional variations of English and that doesn't bother me one bit. There are 57 varieties of Heinz and I'm okay with that too.

Do you have a point or did you just take issue with me teasing Busyman in that excerpt of mine you posted.

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Actually, chaff is correct.

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Originally Posted by InDaPocket

Actually, chaff is correct.

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Really.

Chaff.

Chafe.

You meant that a linguistic nuance makes fun of me in a good natured way :unsure:

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Originally Posted by manker

Really.

Chaff.

Chafe.

You meant that a linguistic nuance makes fun of me in a good natured way :unsure:

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Do you speak Welsh when British people are around. I read a novel based in Wales and although it was a horror novel, the obviously Welsh author had definite issues with the British and their penchant for buying up prime real-estate for retirement homes (Homes to retire to, not that place for old people).

Sort of a snub was to exclude British patrons at a bar by speaking only in Welsh.

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Originally Posted by hobbes

Do you speak Welsh when British people are around. I read a novel based in Wales and although it was a horror novel, the obviously Welsh author had definite issues with the British and their penchant for buying up prime real-estate for retirement homes (Homes to retire to, not that place for old people).

Sort of a snub was to exclude British patrons at a bar by speaking only in Welsh.

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I can't speak Welsh but what you say is right, some Welsh people, not I, particularly, do take issue at that.

In West Wales, where the prime real-estate is, it is not uncommon for shop workers to start talking Welsh on hearing an English twang. That may be as much to do with general tribalism and an aversion to English folk as real-estate issues but there are extreme groups that burn down English owned holiday homes. It seems to have abated but a few years ago it was a recurring theme on the news.

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Originally Posted by hobbes

Do you speak Welsh when British people are around. I read a novel based in Wales and although it was a horror novel, the obviously Welsh author had definite issues with the British and their penchant for buying up prime real-estate for retirement homes (Homes to retire to, not that place for old people).

Sort of a snub was to exclude British patrons at a bar by speaking only in Welsh.

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Welsh people are british....you are talking about English people buying up land in wales thus pricing the locals out of the market.

Edit: manker already sort of said that

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Originally Posted by vidcc

Welsh people are british....you are talking about English people buying up land in wales thus pricing the locals out of the market

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Well, I did start us down Pedant Street, I suppose.

could you please give me time to edit :angry: :D

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Originally Posted by vidcc

could you please give me time to edit :angry: :D

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:lol:

You edited yet you still didn't capitalise Wales or Britain, but you did with England. You heartless brute.

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Originally Posted by manker

Who knows where you're going with the rest of the irrelevance but what I point out only exists in colloquialisms in the UK, not in the dictionary.

I call a sink a bosh, but that isn't in the dictionary. You call a boot a trunk and it's in the American-English dictionary.

That's the point. You officially don't speak English.

Sorry to break it to you so bluntly, old chap.

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Irrelevance? If I speak American-English it is still English...called it a colloquialism of English or whatever the fuck.

You try and define it as an entirely different language. It is not.

In essence, a mere variation of a language is not a different language otherwise NO ONE speaks English. :dry:

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Originally Posted by Busyman

Irrelevance? If I speak American-English it is still English...called it a colloquialism of English or whatever the fuck.

You try and define it as an entirely different language. It is not.

In essence, a mere variation of a language is not a different language otherwise NO ONE speaks English. :dry:

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I speak English, you speak American English.

They are different languages with different words and different grammatical rules. It is official.

What the hell are you arguing about :huh:

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Originally Posted by Busyman

Irrelevance? If I speak American-English it is still English...called it a colloquialism of English or whatever the fuck.

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The effectiveness of your harangue is mitigated somewhat by the gratuitous insertion of the emboldened German derivation, B.

Please chasten yourself severely; for me to do it would be a grievous overstep.

Thank you.

@J2

As an American it would be nice to get your take on the thread subject...... What is your opinion on the boycott?

Let me review it for sec...

I may also need to have a nosh; I'll get to it, though.

At first blush, it would seem that, in the obviously politically-correct context of "International Languages Week", such a presentation would be appropriate; looked upon strictly as an exercise in the literal translation of words from one language to another, it might serve if the ultimate aim was to foment interest in the general subject of languages, individually or collectively.

I am also struck by the rather obvious incongruence of reciting the American "Pledge of Allegiance" in ANY foreign language, for any reason other than the ones I have mentioned.

It would be just as fitting (if only slightly more incongruent) to be reciting the equivalent words of other countries in English.

I hereby pronounce the entire project idiotic and ill-advised, though it isn't clever enough to considered subversive.

In my humble American opinion.

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Originally Posted by j2k4

I am also struck by the rather obvious incongruence of reciting the American "Pledge of Allegiance" in ANY foreign language, for any reason other than the ones I have mentioned.

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What would your thoughts be then if it was said in both English and spanish in New mexico?

And what about us Spanglish speakers?

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Originally Posted by hobbes

English is the official language of the United States except for New Mexico which is English and Spanish.

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ahhhh....
you never been to southern California have you? :P
there's also Texas, Arizona, with established Hispanic communities,
as well as Florida, I am sure, with the Puerto Rican, Cuban, Dominican immigrants
funny, because they seem to have the same beef about the Spanish language
that some seem to have about the English language
at least between people from Old Mexico vs those that have emmigrated
whats it all boil down to?
people are just itching for an argument, no matter the topic, IMO :P

we are ALL immigrants in America, save for the Native Americans
my ancestors, so you can all stfu & gtfo :P
(you know, the ones the Spaniards called "Indians" when they hit the wrong continent)

"America is the melting pot of the world."
heard that said somewhere, and how true it is

as for the kid that got in a huff about the Pledge....
he needs to have his ass kicked :lol:
I dont buy into that "let's bitch & protest" mentality
leave that for the liberals and left-wing psychos
that kid is NOT American, he's some new breed of Nazi or somethin
he's probably the same type of person (as well as his dad)....
that would use words like "n*gger", "sp*c", "w*tback", etc. :dry:

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Originally Posted by vidcc

What would your thoughts be then if it was said in both English and spanish in New mexico?

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Why?

As part of "International Language Week"?

As a normal course of events?

I thought I made it clear such strenuous exertion merely to provide a context in which to say the Pledge in a foreign language is a defective notion.

"International Language Week" could have consisted of a variety of exercises such as "construct an autobiographical statement in one of these foreign languages".

The fact those in charge thought it necessary to begin the day with a foreign-language recitation of the Pledge is indicative of a tremendous mis-understanding of the mechanics of learning; was it intended that listening to or saying the pledge that way would somehow imbue the participant with a much-needed empathy for practitioners of that particular language?

As to the mis-guided urge to ease the way for our southern neighbors by assimilating Americans to them, instead of the other way around, that is precisely the reason for our immigration problem.

After all, we don't have any similar difficulties with the hoards of Canadians pouring over our northern borders, do we? :D

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Originally Posted by HeavyMetalParkingLot

And what about us Spanglish speakers?

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Type something in Spanglish; I will attempt to translate. :)

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Originally Posted by vidcc

What would your thoughts be then if it was said in both English and spanish in New mexico?

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As to the kid and his boycott, throw him to the lions.

But if we are to live in New Mexico and the children are allowed to recite it in Spanish, let's look at the words they are saying:

I pledge allegiance
to the flag
of the United States of America

and to the republic
for which it stands.

One nation,
under God,
indivisible
with liberty and justice
for all.

Pero,
no quiero aprender el idioma


So it makes no sense to say it in Spanish if you want to think of us as one nation, indivisible. The very recital of the pledge would divide classrooms with some saying it in English and some in Spanish.

A language barrier, if you will.

Actually the state of New Mexico is doing it's citizen no favors with the dual official languages. It should be pushing them to learn English because here in San Antonio, not speaking English locks you into being that guy that cuts my grass and takes out my trash. It locks you in to the lowest socio-economic class.

Well, the school playing the pledge in different languages was a pretty cool idea. If I weren't a native English speaker I would feel more a part of America that someone took the time to say the Pledge in my own tongue. However, the compromise which was reached AFTER the kid whined should really have been thought of beforehand. In today's age of everyone whining and sueing everyone else because they were called a bad name or they're ideologies were contradicted in some form, one would think the compromise the only sensible thing to do.

Thinking of these ppl as neo nazis is ridiculous. Good for them for loving the country they live in, even if it is a bit overzealous.

It sort of reminds me of a quote by Clint Eastwood.
"If you move far enough to the right, you'll run into the same kind of idiot coming from the left."

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Originally Posted by hobbes

As to the kid and his boycott, throw him to the lions.

But if we are to live in New Mexico and the children are allowed to recite it in Spanish, let's look at the words they are saying:

I pledge allegiance
to the flag
of the United States of America

and to the republic
for which it stands.

One nation,
under God,
indivisible
with liberty and justice
for all.

Pero,
no quiero aprender el idioma


So it makes no sense to say it in Spanish if you want to think of us as one nation, indivisible. The very recital of the pledge would divide classrooms with some saying it in English and some in Spanish.

A language barrier, if you will.

Actually the state of New Mexico is doing it's citizen no favors with the dual official languages. It should be pushing them to learn English because here in San Antonio, not speaking English locks you into being that guy that cuts my grass and takes out my trash. It locks you in to the lowest socio-economic class.

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Simply and elegantly put, sir.

[QUOTE=FKDUP74]ahhhh....
QUOTE]

I live in San Antonio and my parents live in San Diego, I know exactly what people are speaking.

"Official language" means that state documents/services must be in English. Doesn't mean people have to speak it.

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Originally Posted by SideSwiped

Thinking of these ppl as neo nazis is ridiculous. Good for them for loving the country they live in, even if it is a bit overzealous.

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hmmm.....so it's a "good thing"....
that the Klan loves their country....
even if thier method is a bit over zealous?

:whistling

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Originally Posted by SideSwiped

If I weren't a non-native English speaker I would feel more a part of America that someone took the time to say the Pledge in my own tongue.

...It sort of reminds me of a quote by Clint Eastwood.
"If you move far enough to the right, you'll run into the same kind of idiot coming from the left."

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How did you feel when you were finally able to say the Pledge in English, SS? :huh:

BTW-

I had forgotten the Eastwood quote; thanks for recalling it.

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Originally Posted by hobbes

I live in San Antonio and my parents live in San Diego, I know exactly what people are speaking.

"Official language" means that state documents/services must be in English. Doesn't mean people have to speak it.

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oops :blushing:
i was was going more along the lines of...
the "Un-official-official" language

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Originally Posted by FKDUP74

we are ALL immigrants in America, save for the Native Americans

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Native Americans are of Asian descent :P

No, you missed it.
This boy and his father need not be 'Klan' members nor Neo Nazis.

How about I pose it to you this way?
Do you remember, or did you hear about a school in CA, in which, the board had decided to disallow the display of the American flag during graduation ceremonies? If not, you ought to check it out. Anyway, would I be right in saying that the faculty or school board is full of ppl that hate America and should all be prosecuted for high treason?

By calling or accusing someone or a group of ppl of something which you cannot possibly know to be true or not, are you not as bad seeming as they? Is not your view as narrow as theirs by jumping to conclusions? Maybe there is an underlying cause for such hostility.

Maybe their point of view was misconstrued, or they lacked the capacity to state it clearly. This is something we will never know.

I don't agree with them, I don't agree with a lot of people over many issues, but because I disagree, does not make them an idiot.

Besides, who was hurt in this incident? They didn't burn down the school, they didn't harass their neighbors, they didn't go out and threaten all immigrants they came accross. Just another case of misplaced anger and someones sensibilities being offended.

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Originally Posted by j2k4

How did you feel when you were finally able to say the Pledge in English, SS? :huh:

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I felt proud, and I believe in the pledge.

On the side...........
I forgot something very important to this topic. What they did was wrong, but, they don't realize that all naturalized American citizens must recite the Pledge before receiving their citizenship papers, so, it really doesn't matter if for the sake of honoring a week of appreciation to this great melting pot that it was said in languages other than English.

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Originally Posted by SideSwiped

Maybe their point of view was misconstrued, or they lacked the capacity to state it clearly. This is something we will never know.

I don't agree with them, I don't agree with a lot of people over many issues, but because I disagree, does not make them an idiot.

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They likened it to hanging a cross upside down in a church ffs.

Do you know how wrong some people think that would be?


In essence they look down on all other languages used in the USA and that includes the official non-english ones.

The impression one might get from that is that they view people who don't have english as their first language as being of lesser worth. And that they don't feel other people have the right to their own language and an American citizenship at the same time.

Pride is all right, but this is stupid. And intolerant.


I do agree, in part at least, with the notion that there should be one official language everyone had to learn in school (English in your case), but that doesn't mean that speaking an oath in another language is somehow equal to heresy. Nor do I believe that one language and that language alone should be the only language allowed in public, bilinguality is after all a good thing, and something we all benefit from later in life.

And there really isn't that great a tradition to uphold that makes the official recitation of the same oath in the another language unthinkable, yours is a nation just a couple of centuries old, if there was any linguistic tradition that should be observed it would be the reading of the oath in a native american language, because the country was theirs so very long before it became yours.

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Originally Posted by SideSwiped

I felt proud, and I believe in the pledge.

On the side...........
I forgot something very important to this topic. What they did was wrong, but, they don't realize that all naturalized American citizens must recite the Pledge before receiving their citizenship papers, so, it really doesn't matter if for the sake of honoring a week of appreciation to this great melting pot that it was said in languages other than English.

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I appreciate your pride in the pledge.

I understand how you might have felt assuaged and comforted by a recitation of same in your native language (which would be what, BTW?), but I hope at this remove you can likewise appreciate what may have presented to you as a "club" to which you weren't entitled full "membership" until you had passed muster by demonstrating a genuine interest in belonging, which you have done by learning the language and (I assume) becoming naturalized.

Corny as it may seem, I am proud that my country attracts immigrants who actually desire to integrate themselves, and also proud of people like yourself who actually do see the positive need to assimilate.

Well done.

BTW-I thought the aegis for the foreign-language recitation was "International Language Week", not an appreciation of the "melting pot"?

I don't recall mention of this; I will re-read the starter.

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Originally Posted by SnnY

....because the country was theirs so very long before it became yours...

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...and someone else's long before that.

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...and someone else's long before that.

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Still, it was inhabited by what is today known as Native Americans (or more crudely "Indians") for much longer than the current (in majority) Caucasian population has been a majority there.

Looking by the ease and lack of afterthought with which they were replaced, would it be that unfair if the next wave of immigrants in turn replaced your language with their own, ie spanish, if the hispanic community becomes a majority?

Just thinking out loud now, mind.

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Originally Posted by SnnY

Still, it was inhabited by what is today known as Native Americans (or more crudely "Indians") for much longer than the current (in majority) Caucasian population has been a majority there.

Looking by the ease and lack of afterthought with which they were replaced, would it be that unfair if the next wave of immigrants in turn replaced your language with their own, ie spanish, if the hispanic community becomes a majority?

Just thinking out loud now, mind.

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One of the big differences between then and now is the fact that Native Americans had no concept of ownership of land. Why fight for what can not be owned? Kids these days fight for ownership of shoes....

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Originally Posted by SnnY

Still, it was inhabited by what is today known as Native Americans (or more crudely "Indians") for much longer than the current Caucasian population has been a majority there.

Looking by the ease and lack of afterthought with which they were replaced, would it be that unfair if the next wave of immigrants in turn replaced your language with their own, ie spanish, if the hispanic community becomes a majority?

Just thinking out loud now, mind.

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Most conquering peoples find themselves fraught with the need for much "afterthinking", SnnY, and fairness is, in the moment, a minor consideration.

Another difference is the methodology of the current "attack".

Out loud, then:

If assimilation/integration/time have their usual effect, to the extent the now-native and dominant Latino population finds itself communicating in English, what cockeyed brand of reasoning might possess them to harken back to their original language?

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Originally Posted by InDaPocket

One of the big differences between then and now is the fact that Native Americans had no concept of ownership of land. Why fight for what can not be owned? Kids these days fight for ownership of shoes....

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He looks askance at the steering wheel of the thread, mulling a new heading...