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I wasn't pointing to his expertise in the constitution, I was pointing to the religious beliefs of some of the founding fathers. :rolleyes: He being a non believer doesn't alter the beliefs of the founders does it ? Some were christians some were not.Quote:
Originally Posted by JPaul
No, but it affects which particular evidence he uses, when he uses ellipsis and how he interprets what the evidence means.
The mere fact that you said some of them were not Freemasons is itself mentalist. Freemasons are normally Christian and at the very least must believe in God.
Not true, there is no such stipulation, in fact, many Christians have left Masonry when they have found out what it is really about.Quote:
Originally Posted by JPaul
right. there's some controversy, prolly even among the various masonic organizations, regarding what it actually IS about. is it a christian belief? is it in fact a different religious belief that takes up the public appearance of christianity for discretion's sake? is it a serious social/political movement, or a frivolous social club, which is so layered in complicated symbolism and formalities that the religious component is essentially garbled and useless? one of the above? all of the above?
Whichever it is, the one thing they do insist on is a belief in God (or at least the person joining must profess to having such a belief). It is also, because of the demographics, predominantly Christians who join, at least in my experience.Quote:
Originally Posted by 3RA1N1AC
I would certainly have thought that it would have been mostly Christians (or at least people who believed in God) who formed it's membership at the relevant time.
It would be correct to imagine the soul of Masonry was, at that point in time, a bit more prevalent than it is now, given the infernal pull of modernity; that is to say, it's strictures would have been stricter.Quote:
Originally Posted by JPaul
Big stars are born near Milky Way's black holeQuote:
Originally Posted by spinningfreemanny
You cannot rise above 33rd Degree in Freemasonry if you are a practising Christian or admit to a belief in "One God".Quote:
Originally Posted by JPaul
The Oaths refer to the "Old Religion" and the Maunday service states:
"We meet this day to commemorate the death of our 'Most Wise and Perfect Master,' not as inspired or divine, for this is not for us to decide, but as at least the greatest of the apostles of mankind."
ie: He is not the son of God but an Apostle until proven otherwise.
None of the prayers in the Masons ever refer to Jesus Christ as the son of God or "Lord", indeed most avoid mentoning the name at all...
The Grand Temple in Washington is decorated with Ancient Egyption sybols, not Christian.. the closest to anything Christian in the Temple is the Anke symbol.
So tell me JP... are the real players in the Lodges real Christians?
Im sure that that some are, and dont realise what they're doing.. I mean, its such an honour to be in a Lodge for most, that they dont look and listen...
Besides, like in society most people arent really "Christian"; they merely describe themselves as such because they were baptised into the religion. They dont actually actively practise it.. :P
has it been mentioned that the so-called "boffins" have found some more of those "hobbits"? not that it conclusively proves evolution. but. you know. the bones are startin' to pile up in favor of possibly adding another species to the human genus. a species that seems to have been intelligently designed to go extinct, possibly due to having rather small craniums.
Update
All Eight Intelligent Design Proponents On Dover, Pa. School Board Swept Out Of Office
sourceQuote:
All eight members up for re-election to the Pennsylvania school board that had been sued for introducing the teaching of intelligent design as an alternative to evolution in biology class were swept out of office yesterday by a slate of challengers who campaigned against the intelligent design policy.
Among the losing incumbents on the Dover, Pa., board were two members who testified in favor of the intelligent design policy at a recently concluded federal trial on the Dover policy: the chairwoman, Sheila Harkins, and Alan Bonsell.
The election results were a repudiation of the first school district in the nation to order the introduction of intelligent design in a science class curriculum. The policy was the subject of a trial in Federal District Court that ended last Friday. A verdict by Judge John E. Jones III is expected by early January.
"I think voters were tired of the trial, they were tired of intelligent design, they were tired of everything that this school board brought about," said Bernadette Reinking, who was among the winners.
The election will not alter the facts on which the judge must decide the case. But if the intelligent design policy is defeated in court, the new school board could refuse to pursue an appeal. It could also withdraw the policy, a step that many challengers said they intended to take.
"We are all for it being discussed, but we do not want to see it in biology class," said Judy McIlvaine, a member of the winning slate. "It is not a science."
The vote counts were close, but of the 16 candidates the one with the fewest votes was Mr. Bonsell, the driving force behind the intelligent design policy. Testimony at the trial revealed that Mr. Bonsell had initially insisted that creationism get equal time in the classroom with evolution.
One incumbent, James Cashman, said he would contest the vote because a voting machine in one precinct recorded no votes for him, while others recorded hundreds.
He said that school spending and a new teacher contract, not intelligent design, were the determining issues. "We ran a very conservative school board, and obviously there are people who want to see more money spent," he said.
One board member, Heather Geesey, was not up for re-election.
The school board voted in October 2004 to require ninth grade biology students to hear a brief statement at the start of the semester saying that there were "gaps" in the theory of evolution, that intelligent design was an alternative and that students could learn more about it by reading a textbook "Of Pandas and People," available in the high school library.
The board was sued by 11 Dover parents who contended that intelligent design was religious creationism in new packaging, and that the board was trying to impose its religion on students. The parents were represented by lawyers from the American Civil Liberties Union, Americans United for Separation of Church and State, and a private law firm, Pepper Hamilton LLP.
Just need to get some competent minded people to run for the school boards in Kansas now ;)