Re: The Curse of the Second Term
Quote:
Originally Posted by clocker
J2,
The fact that Libby ( and so far, only Libby...Rove is apparently dancing frantically to avoid the same charges) has only been charged with lying under oath (and lying about more important matters, i.e. WMD, has never seemed a problem for this administration) and obstruction of justice does not detract from the fact that the compact between undercover operatives and the government they serve has now become vulnerable to political gamesmanship.
Plame's status as "undercover" or not is irrelevant, how secure can any operative feel knowing that political expediency trumps their personal security?
For an administration that fancies itself as being on a war footing, comprimising it's intelligence service seems like a real bone-headed move, don't you think?
Politicians and their functionaries have been doing this dance you speak of for years, and your favorite administrations (whichever they might have been) were among those who exhibited the fullest variety of tawdry behaviors.
On the other hand, who am I to deny you the opportunity to gloat over such small potatoes?
The fact that Ms.Plame's "undercover status" has never been validated is a bit curious, don't you think?
The fact that her husband is easily the most egregious offender in the "name that agent" sweepstakes, and also the loudest complaining party, is also curious.
How come these points don't faze you or the media?
The fact you feel compelled to mention Rove at this point indicates nothing, apart from your fervent wish that he be hauled into the docket also.
No matter what you've heard, if there exists the slightest possibility of his endictment, he will be indicted.
If it doesn't happen, he will have attained a glorious status (investigated but not indicted) enjoyed by many in Washington, and probably 80% of the Clinton administration.
BTW-those who've noted here that the allegations against Libby are far worse than Bill Clinton's "dick-suck" (as Busyman refers to it) are wrong.
Clinton lied to the court, and ended up admitting it; never mind what it was about.
Libby is still innocent, but, if proven guilty, will still have to find a mighty tall ladder to even get a glimpse of Clinton's offense-after all, he is still merely a Whitehouse functionary, and Clinton was the President of the U.S.A.
They just don't compare.
As to WMD, if you yourself had been polled prior to the Iraq war, you'd have said you believed Saddam had them, because everybody else did-period.
Hans Blixt mentioned that he was intensely interested in the progress of the war, as "We will finally find the truth" about WMD.
That's hilarious, because nowadays Blixt and the doofus I.A.E.A. (which also "wasn't sure") are the first references of those who say Saddam didn't have WMD, never did, and everyone knew it.
There is no shortage of documented "Saddam has WMD! We have to do something!" quotes from every living soul on the political scene who have since tried to make partisan hay with the "Bush lied!" nonsense, and that you choose to forget this is the surest endictment of your own statements.
Much as I would hate to see a liberal administration, if such ever comes to pass again (difficult to believe), I hope we're all still here, 'cuz I'll have a blast.
If you still want to hash out the WMD thingie, google up a gaggle of quotes from credible sources which were gathered before the Iraq war-then we'll talk.
Re: The Curse of the Second Term
Quote:
Originally Posted by j2k4
If you still want to hash out the WMD thingie, google up a gaggle of quotes from credible sources which were gathered before the Iraq war-then we'll talk.
Goodness, if you want to quote Democratic members of Congress as believing there was WMD, it's already been done...on this forum.
I never believed it. Bush was asking about Saddam since he got in the White House. I believed (and it's not far-fetched) that he looked for a reason and had one cooked up. Just the same, I believed Clinton bombed Iraq when the heat was on his ass.
Quote:
Originally Posted by j2k4
Much as I would hate to see a liberal administration, if such ever comes to pass again (difficult to believe), I hope we're all still here, 'cuz I'll have a blast.
Fact. We are worse off now than we were under Clinton. I remember when I worked in Silver Spring when Clinton was elected. There was this geeky white guy that worked in the office (always with a suit, tie, briefcase, and hiked up waist pants....as a telemarketer) thought it was the end of the world when Bush lost.
People like that guy can't see the hand in front of their face. I wonder what he's saying now. Do people follow their party...even to hell, or do they follow logic.
Are we better off now than we were under Clinton?
Is the world better off now than we were under Clinton?
I don't know wtf Bush is. He not liberal and he surely ain't Republican.
I like some liberal views and Republican ones. Bush sucks at both. F.
It's seems by your post above that you'll look for anything to lambast a liberal President. I'm still looking for something to laud Bush. He's my President and unlike yourself, whether he's Republican or Democrat, I wanna like him.:happy:
Re: The Curse of the Second Term
Quote:
Originally Posted by j2k4
...How come these points don't faze you or the media?
Because they are irrelevant (although I hesitate to speak for "the media" as whole...seems a bit pretentious).
Libby was charged with perjury and obstruction of justice.
How come these points don't faze the conservatives and Republicans?
The fact you feel compelled to mention Rove at this point indicates nothing, apart from your fervent wish that he be hauled into the docket also.
My fervent wishes aside, there is no doubt that he is under intense scrutiny by the same prosecutor that investigated Libby and may indeed still be charged.
Oh, forgive me, is this all part of the persecution of conservatives that has also ensnared Delay?
Boy, that's tough...where do you think we learned this sort of behaviour?
Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.
No matter what you've heard, if there exists the slightest possibility of his endictment, he will be endicted.
One can only hope.
...
As to WMD, if you yourself had been polled prior to the Iraq war, you'd have said you believed Saddam had them, because everybody else did-period.
I don't think so and at any rate, that point is irrelevant also.
Why is it unreasonable to expect the President to have better intelligence and information that I, a mere clock mechanician?
All evidence seems to indicate that Bush manipulated data and rejected any advice that did not fit his preconceived agenda.
Sorry, I meant Cheney's agenda.
I Would need the proverbial "very tall ladder" to reach the worldview that one assumes heads of state to enjoy, so, even if I did believe in the existence of WMDs it excuses my ignorance.
What's Bush's excuse?
...
If you still want to hash out the WMD thingie, google up a gaggle of quotes from credible sources which were gathered before the Iraq war-then we'll talk.
Too much work for a pointless debate mon frere.
Bush was either:
-egregiously misled
-intentionally deceived
-intentionally deceptive.
In any case, he fucked up royally.
His hubris might prevent him from admitting responsibility, but certainly doesn't excuse him from accepting it.
Re: The Curse of the Second Term
Quote:
Originally Posted by Busyman
It's seems by your post above that you'll look for anything to lambast a liberal President. I'm still looking for something to laud Bush. He's my President and unlike yourself, whether he's Republican or Democrat, I wanna like him.:happy:
You want to like Bush.
That's a stitch.
Okay.
Hillary Clinton-(D) New York
John Kerry-(D) Mass.
John Edwards-(D) Nowhere, USA
George Allen-(R) Virginia
Chuck Hagel-(R) Nebraska
John McCain-(R) Arizona
Any thoughts on electability?
Personal leanings?
Clocker-
To take just one of your...concerns, I guess:
What will you take away from all this if Rove is not indicted and continues as he has?
If Libby is not convicted?
I understand perfectly your avoiding the google I proposed; I hate such things myself, but I find it telling, nonetheless.
Re: The Curse of the Second Term
Quote:
Originally Posted by j2k4
What will you take away from all this if Rove is not indicted and continues as he has?
If Libby is not convicted?
I understand perfectly your avoiding the google I proposed; I hate such things myself, but I find it telling, nonetheless.
What will I take away...I have no idea really.
At the very least I suppose they will have earned the same grudging respect one must afford O.J. and Robert Blake.
As for the second...
If the American public believed in WMD it's because Bush said it was so.
Do you believe that they will still be found or has the major reason for our incursion become irrelevant now?
Re: The Curse of the Second Term
Quote:
Originally Posted by clocker
Quote:
Originally Posted by j2k4
What will you take away from all this if Rove is not indicted and continues as he has?
If Libby is not convicted?
I understand perfectly your avoiding the google I proposed; I hate such things myself, but I find it telling, nonetheless.
What will I take away...I have no idea really.
At the very least I suppose they will have earned the same grudging respect one must afford O.J. and Robert Blake.
As for the second...
If the American public believed in WMD it's because
Bush said it was so.
Do you believe that they will still be found or has the major reason for our incursion become irrelevant now?
??????
O.J. and Blake deserve grudging respect?
I'm stunned.
Do you think they were guilty or innocent?
I was all in favor of ousting Saddam on general principle; WMD would have just been icing on the cake.
As to whether they'll be found?
Physically found?
Probably not; whatever their disposition, that particular issue is akin to JFK's assassination...we may find out, we may not.
I think, if anything, we'll find something that indicates whatever WMD he may have had was transferred to another party-Syria perhaps, or maybe they are in terrorist hands, or maybe they're buried, like so many other things in Iraq.
I am not troubled by their absence, as a motivation for going into Iraq, apart from the intentions of whichever entity might currently possess them.
Also-
I am not excusing Libby for whatever crimes he might have committed, but I am perfectly at ease waiting for the legal deliberations to take place.
I do think he is small beer, and considering how Sandy Berger (Burglar?) skated, I'd be surprised to see Libby slapped hard if he is found guilty.
I see today that Joe Wilson is screaming for Cheney to resign over this...stuff.
If you can put aside your abiding hatred of the Veep long enough to tug on your objective cap, don't you feel this is just a bit hysterical/premature?
Re: The Curse of the Second Term
Quote:
Originally Posted by j2k4
I was all in favor of ousting Saddam on general principle; WMD would have just been icing on the cake.
I'm sure Bush felt the same way and used WMD to make you feel there was icing on the yellow cake......and 2000+ dead soldiers later.................
Re: The Curse of the Second Term
Quote:
Originally Posted by Busyman
Quote:
Originally Posted by j2k4
I was all in favor of ousting Saddam on general principle; WMD would have just been icing on the cake.
I'm sure Bush felt the same way and used WMD to make you feel there was icing on the yellow cake......and 2000+ dead soldiers later.................
Sure sounds as if you want to "like" him.
No comment on the candidates, huh?
Re: The Curse of the Second Term
I'll answer
Quote:
Originally Posted by j2k4
Okay.
Hillary Clinton-(D) New York An acceptable president
John Kerry-(D) Mass. An acceptable president
John Edwards-(D) Nowhere, USA not yet ready
George Allen-(R) Virginia totally unacceptable
Chuck Hagel-(R) Nebraska totally unacceptable
John McCain-(R) Arizona An acceptable president
Any thoughts on electability?
Personal leanings?
Personally I would have liked the rumoured (by untrue) Kerry/McCain ticket last year.
Re: The Curse of the Second Term
Oh my God.
You are liberal.
No getting around that now.
BTW-
McCain is not a Republican.
I've heard some up-close and personal info on him that would turn even your stomach.
Hillary?
I can't believe it.
