Re: Jurisprudence of Prevention? YOU BET!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by j2k4
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempestv
...he is an ultra liberal, which means that this bullshit is coming from the opposite side of the fence from where it usually comes from
Tres significant.
Anyone who's ever had an earful of Dershowitz should also have raised eyebrows.
This warrants more than mere "gleaning", I think, unless you would choose to dismiss him as merely a Jewish lawyer, stricken with fear.
Do you think it is "bullshit", Tempestv?
Yes-
1: there is no real way to compleatly stop a determined terrorist movement. Even if we went to marshal law, a determined terrorist movement could still do great damage. look at France in WWII. despight being ruled by german marshal law, the french resistance was still very successfull.
2: Does anyone else see what is so ironic about killing civil libertys in the name of freedom?
Re: Jurisprudence of Prevention? YOU BET!!!
Well many things are ass backwards in the administration anyway. They'll focus on bullshit that takes away civil liberties but ignore obvious fixes.
1. Water facilities should have stepped up security.
2. Nuclear reactors...stepped up security.
3. Airports- stepped up security....profiling accepted. Stop frisking old white grandmas.
4. Ports - since they are run by companies, have government oversight always. Scutinize who runs the motherfuckers and step up checking the containers even though all of them can't be checked. Pay money for more drive-thru scanners.
5. Mexican & Canadian borders - step up security. Fuck that running through shit (mostly Mexico). These could be potential terrorists. Start shooting folks with rubber bullets. Aim low. Do not attempt rescue of folks going the desert.
6. Trains - more security. Make it mirror airports.
7. Telephone - again, government oversight. I won't talk much about our vulnerabilites but they are there.
8. Student visas - if someone overstays, issue an arrest warrant and ship them TFO
9. Federal money to the states - fuck the days when the states spend the money on WTF they want as it relates to security. I've read states spending on dumb shit JUST BECAUSE THE MONEY WAS THERE. Get someone with some common sense to approve purchases before money is given.
Alaska got money to build a bridge that goes nowhere. The congresswoman for the state danced around the questions about it and basically said they deserved the money 'cause it was there to be had from the gubment.
Some shit got ta change.
There is some other stuff like welfare reform I'd like to see which would help eliminate this long standing semi-slave labor usage of hispanics.....which in turn has even pro-border security folks using hispanics as cheap labor.
Re: Jurisprudence of Prevention? YOU BET!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Busyman
Well many things are ass backwards in the administration anyway. They'll focus on bullshit that takes away civil liberties but ignore obvious fixes.
1. Water facilities should have stepped up security.
2. Nuclear reactors...stepped up security.
3. Airports- stepped up security....profiling accepted. Stop frisking old white grandmas.
4. Ports - since they are run by companies, have government oversight always. Scutinize who runs the motherfuckers and step up checking the containers even though all of them can't be checked. Pay money for more drive-thru scanners.
5. Mexican & Canadian borders - step up security. Fuck that running through shit (mostly Mexico). These could be potential terrorists. Start shooting folks with rubber bullets. Aim low. Do not attempt rescue of folks going the desert.
6. Trains - more security. Make it mirror airports.
7. Telephone - again, government oversight. I won't talk much about our vulnerabilites but they are there.
8. Student visas - if someone overstays, issue an arrest warrant and ship them TFO
9. Federal money to the states - fuck the days when the states spend the money on WTF they want as it relates to security. I've read states spending on dumb shit JUST BECAUSE THE MONEY WAS THERE. Get someone with some common sense to approve purchases before money is given.
Alaska got money to build a bridge that goes nowhere. The congresswoman for the state danced around the questions about it and basically said they deserved the money 'cause it was there to be had from the gubment.
Some shit got ta change.
There is some other stuff like welfare reform I'd like to see which would help eliminate this long standing semi-slave labor usage of hispanics.....which in turn has even pro-border security folks using hispanics as cheap labor.
Agreed to all.
Why couldn't such measures be part of a re-thought regimen?
I think that's the point.
Re: Jurisprudence of Prevention? YOU BET!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempestv
1: there is no real way to compleatly stop a determined terrorist movement. Even if we went to marshal law, a determined terrorist movement could still do great damage. look at France in WWII. despight being ruled by german marshal law, the french resistance was still very successfull.
2: Does anyone else see what is so ironic about killing civil libertys in the name of freedom?
Your first is a given, however, you'll never know how man incidents shy of "completely" you are unless you try.
You don't think we'd be better off with a system comprehensively formulated to terrorist activity, rather than flailing about with clumsy "tools" like the Patriot Act?
As to your last, please describe for us the "lost" civil liberties you miss the most...
Re: Jurisprudence of Prevention? YOU BET!!!
the patirot act is garbage, hiowever, in the artical, he talks about compleatly changing how we deal with justice in such a way as to put security ahead of freedom. if we devalue freedom, then what are we fighting for? what is the point of fighting for our freedom if we are going to make laws to take it away? as for civil libertys that have been removed, at many events, it is no longer leigal to protest outside of free speach zones that are often far away or well hidden from the actual event. just an example of the goverment trashing the bill of rights. I'm not saying that these freedoms we are losing will really make much differece to the average american right now, but over time, I beleve that we will notice the changes. however, the worse we allow it to get, the harder it will be to change when it gets really bad.
Re: Jurisprudence of Prevention? YOU BET!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by j2k4
Why couldn't such measures be part of a re-thought regimen?
I think that's the point.
Its unnecessary atm. If a real war breaks out then I accept you'll have to weigh up civil liberties against security and make some hard decisions. However, i believe a key point is that these measures should only last for the duration of the conflict.
A war on terrorism doesn't have an end.
Re: Jurisprudence of Prevention? YOU BET!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by j2k4
Quote:
Originally Posted by Busyman
Well many things are ass backwards in the administration anyway. They'll focus on bullshit that takes away civil liberties but ignore obvious fixes.
1. Water facilities should have stepped up security.
2. Nuclear reactors...stepped up security.
3. Airports- stepped up security....profiling accepted. Stop frisking old white grandmas.
4. Ports - since they are run by companies, have government oversight always. Scutinize who runs the motherfuckers and step up checking the containers even though all of them can't be checked. Pay money for more drive-thru scanners.
5. Mexican & Canadian borders - step up security. Fuck that running through shit (mostly Mexico). These could be potential terrorists. Start shooting folks with rubber bullets. Aim low. Do not attempt rescue of folks going the desert.
6. Trains - more security. Make it mirror airports.
7. Telephone - again, government oversight. I won't talk much about our vulnerabilites but they are there.
8. Student visas - if someone overstays, issue an arrest warrant and ship them TFO
9. Federal money to the states - fuck the days when the states spend the money on WTF they want as it relates to security. I've read states spending on dumb shit JUST BECAUSE THE MONEY WAS THERE. Get someone with some common sense to approve purchases before money is given.
Alaska got money to build a bridge that goes nowhere. The congresswoman for the state danced around the questions about it and basically said they deserved the money 'cause it was there to be had from the gubment.
Some shit got ta change.
There is some other stuff like welfare reform I'd like to see which would help eliminate this long standing semi-slave labor usage of hispanics.....which in turn has even pro-border security folks using hispanics as cheap labor.
Agreed to all.
Why couldn't such measures be part of a re-thought regimen?
I think that's the point.
Notice none have shit all to do with civil liberties (besides the travel) and notice none have been addressed properly.
Re: Jurisprudence of Prevention? YOU BET!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by j2k4
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempestv
1: there is no real way to compleatly stop a determined terrorist movement. Even if we went to marshal law, a determined terrorist movement could still do great damage. look at France in WWII. despight being ruled by german marshal law, the french resistance was still very successfull.
2: Does anyone else see what is so ironic about killing civil libertys in the name of freedom?
Your first is a given, however, you'll never know how man incidents shy of "completely" you are unless you try.
You don't think we'd be better off with a system comprehensively formulated to terrorist activity, rather than flailing about with clumsy "tools" like the Patriot Act?
As to your last, please describe for us the "lost" civil liberties you miss the most...
....hurry up and wait.
Re: Jurisprudence of Prevention? YOU BET!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempestv
the patirot act is garbage, hiowever, in the artical, he talks about compleatly changing how we deal with justice in such a way as to put security ahead of freedom. if we devalue freedom, then what are we fighting for? what is the point of fighting for our freedom if we are going to make laws to take it away? as for civil libertys that have been removed, at many events, it is no longer leigal to protest outside of free speach zones that are often far away or well hidden from the actual event. just an example of the goverment trashing the bill of rights. I'm not saying that these freedoms we are losing will really make much differece to the average american right now, but over time, I beleve that we will notice the changes. however, the worse we allow it to get, the harder it will be to change when it gets really bad.
I don't draw the same conclusions you do, but I'll probably buy the book and see for myself.
Dershowitz hasn't changed his allegiance to civil rights, BTW; he's saying he thinks both ends can be accomplished.
Say what you want about him, he knows that subject cold.
Re: Jurisprudence of Prevention? YOU BET!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by busyman
Airports- stepped up security....profiling accepted. Stop frisking old white grandmas.
I strongly agree with the first, America should have done this after lockerbie but it didn't. Civil liberties had nothing to do with it, money had everything to do with it. Europe got their act together especially with unaccompanied baggage, the USA ignored this, especially domestic flights.
But to the "old white grandmas". As unlikely as it may sound they could be a threat. Drug smugglers use mules and once profiling is accepted as being well managed any potential hijacker could use grandma to get their "stuff" through security.
911 was planned. Imagine if a grandchild or other loved one was kidnapped and the ransom was to get stuff onto a plane. If we want to be secure we need to think outside the box as well as inside.
So profiling is essential but to stop the random searches of unlikely targets could be a mistake.
