Poisoned Spy?

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Originally Posted by bigboab

The only differenece between this 'assassination' and others is the fact that he lived for a few days after the incident and was able to point a finger.
The fact that this is happening on a regular basis by almost every country tends to make most people a little blas'e about the spying game.

If they caught one of the 'spies' and put them on trial, that would make it more interesting.

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Such is the life of a spy, eh? :whistling

I can imagine, however, he might have had actual knowledge of some of the others who've been done in so "mysteriously" in the past several years.

We'll probably never know.

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Originally Posted by j2k4

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Originally Posted by vidcc

Do you think that the Russians would be wrong if they targeted a defecting spy?

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Originally Posted by j2k4

This is germane precisely how?

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The "What if it was Bush?" qualification was aimed at The, only.

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I would go for that if your thread starting post hadn't been worded in the way it was because "non americans" hadn't started a thread yet.
However if you are going to ask a "what if" question then it seems reasonable that you answer the reverse question.

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Originally Posted by j2k4

I've already noted Litvinenko's contention that he was poisoned over his stance on Putin and Putin's politics, and in context with the murders of a string of journalists and other players who weren't Putin fans.

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But he was a spy also, this is important. The fact that he says he is being targeted purely because of his stance on putin doesn't make it so.
I will concede that it may be a part of it in that if he is critical of his former country what else is he talking about? .................remember he was a spy.

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Originally Posted by j2k4

Are you so obsessed with what I think (or rather, what you think I think) that you can't muster a viewpoint, or haven't the wherewithal to construct the underpinnings for one?

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"what you think I think" :rolleyes: then why did I ask you what you think If I already knew? I asked a question to find out what you think.
I asked a simple question which you danced around and didn't answer, so I re-worded it and asked again.

It was a simple question, why are you getting so upset about it?.

Do you really hate being asked questions that much, or do you just hate answering?

Back to the importance of him being a spy and your thread starting post. It's a simple question. If Russia would be justified in targeting a spy then why would anyone start a thread about his death?
the question was would russia be wrong, you said affimative which to my mind says that russia has no justification
so my next question would be, would the US be justified in targeting one of our spies should they "defect" to say Iran or North Korea and start bad mouthing us, or even if they just defect.
Personally I would prefer that the spy way captured, brought home and tried, as I would like all countries to do..........I don't think that happens.

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Originally Posted by j2k4

Oh, and as to your question - which I've quoted, accurately - I will answer in the affirmative...if it is determined somehow that he was targetted over his previous clandestine activities, rather than his dissident status, which you haven't seen fit to note.

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see above
You noted that you don't know that they did target him in connection with his past clandestine activities, will you say the same about his being targeted for his stance on putin?
Had he not been a spy then the dissident status would be all there was. On the other hand you seem to wish to ignore that he was a spy. This is odd because the thread title is "poisoned spy?". They will always be treated by a different standard, there is a reason for this and they know it.

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Originally Posted by j2k4

BTW-

After six years in Britain, I think he qualifies as "defected", rather than defecting.

The heat had long left the moment, I'd say.

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My question was simple and general. It was about if a nation had justification to target spies that cross over. Timespan is of little importance. They may feel that the defector is a low risk to begin with but his/her behavior over time may change that assessment.


Now on the theory that putin's critics are being dropped I will say that it's entirely possibly and even probable that things like that happen. Of course Putin will deny it. The validity of the word of a leader is up to the people who own the ears that hear the words..........

We don't torture. ;)

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Originally Posted by vidcc

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Originally Posted by j2k4

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Originally Posted by j2k4

This is germane precisely how?

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The "What if it was Bush?" qualification was aimed at The, only.

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I would go for that if your thread starting post hadn't been worded in the way it was because "non americans" hadn't started a thread yet.
However if you are going to ask a "what if" question then it seems reasonable that you answer the reverse question.

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Originally Posted by j2k4

I've already noted Litvinenko's contention that he was poisoned over his stance on Putin and Putin's politics, and in context with the murders of a string of journalists and other players who weren't Putin fans.

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But he was a spy also, this is important. The fact that he says he is being targeted purely because of his stance on putin doesn't make it so.
I will concede that it may be a part of it in that if he is critical of his former country what else is he talking about? .................remember he was a spy.

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Originally Posted by j2k4

Are you so obsessed with what I think (or rather, what you think I think) that you can't muster a viewpoint, or haven't the wherewithal to construct the underpinnings for one?

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"what you think I think" :rolleyes: then why did I ask you what you think If I already knew? I asked a question to find out what you think.
I asked a simple question which you danced around and didn't answer, so I re-worded it and asked again.

It was a simple question, why are you getting so upset about it?.

Do you really hate being asked questions that much, or do you just hate answering?

Back to the importance of him being a spy and your thread starting post. It's a simple question. If Russia would be justified in targeting a spy then why would anyone start a thread about his death?
the question was would russia be wrong, you said affimative which to my mind says that russia has no justification
so my next question would be, would the US be justified in targeting one of our spies should they "defect" to say Iran or North Korea and start bad mouthing us, or even if they just defect.
Personally I would prefer that the spy way captured, brought home and tried, as I would like all countries to do..........I don't think that happens.

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Originally Posted by j2k4

Oh, and as to your question - which I've quoted, accurately - I will answer in the affirmative...if it is determined somehow that he was targetted over his previous clandestine activities, rather than his dissident status, which you haven't seen fit to note.

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see above
You noted that you don't know that they did target him in connection with his past clandestine activities, will you say the same about his being targeted for his stance on putin?
Had he not been a spy then the dissident status would be all there was. On the other hand you seem to wish to ignore that he was a spy. This is odd because the thread title is "poisoned spy?". They will always be treated by a different standard, there is a reason for this and they know it.

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Originally Posted by j2k4

BTW-

After six years in Britain, I think he qualifies as "defected", rather than defecting.

The heat had long left the moment, I'd say.

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My question was simple and general. It was about if a nation had justification to target spies that cross over. Timespan is of little importance. They may feel that the defector is a low risk to begin with but his/her behavior over time may change that assessment.


Now on the theory that putin's critics are being dropped I will say that it's entirely possibly and even probable that things like that happen. Of course Putin will deny it. The validity of the word of a leader is up to the people who own the ears that hear the words..........

We don't torture. ;)

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Oh, ffs...

[QUOTE=vidcc;1569844]

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Originally Posted by j2k4

Personally I would prefer that the spy way captured, brought home and tried ..

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Tried with what, bad mouthing the US? Is that a crime now?

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Originally Posted by vidcc

My question was simple and general. It was about if a nation had justification to target spies that cross over.

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What do you mean by 'cross over'? Don't spies have the right to leave a country that is plotting to kill him? Crossing over, in the spy game, is usually associated with working for the other side, there is no evidence that this is the case here, his opposition was as part of a dissident group opposed to the government of Putin, that is not a crime.

Haven't read the whole thread yet, but on the news recently they said both that he had died and that he had information regarding the Putin government attempting to strike up another war with Chechnya.

:shuriken:

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Originally Posted by j2k4

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Originally Posted by GepperRankins

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Originally Posted by j2k4

I see.

Will you be visiting every other thread which holds no interest for you so you can post to that effect?

Better get busy.

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sorry for soiling your thread :(


you asked if anyone should care. i answered. deal with it

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I have.

Then I asked why you posted to note for us your apathy on the subject and I wondered why you bothered.

Deal with it.

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:lol:

well, if the question wasn't along the lines of should we be apathetic, i would never have registered my apathy :dabs:

What I find really amazing is the different response by the West to two political murders.

First we have the murder of Pierre Gemayel in Lebanon, which provokes outrage and Syria targetted finger pointing from the West, yet there is no evidence that Syria is even involved and there are several reasons why Western leaning organisations would have committed this murder simply to elicit an anti-Syria response.

Then we have the murder of Alexander Litvinenko, clearly the work of some Russian based organisation, with the possibility that innocent bystanders present at the site of his poisoning may have been affected, but there's no outrage, no finger pointing, merely a calm response to the Russian authorities for any information they may have.

I don't attribute more importance to one murder or the other, but the response goes a long way to explain why the West gets less cooperation from places like Syria.

Mr Litvinenko named his killer. He said his name was Igor. WOW! what a lead for Scotland Yard and MI5.:lol:

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Originally Posted by bigboab

Mr Litvinenko named his killer. He said his name was Igor. WOW! what a lead for Scotland Yard and MI5.:lol:

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Now they just need to ask the KGB Russian security agencies for information on anyone called Igor. There can't be many.

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Originally Posted by lynx

What I find really amazing is the different response by the West to two political murders.

First we have the murder of Pierre Gemayel in Lebanon, which provokes outrage and Syria targetted finger pointing from the West, yet there is no evidence that Syria is even involved and there are several reasons why Western leaning organisations would have committed this murder simply to elicit an anti-Syria response.

Then we have the murder of Alexander Litvinenko, clearly the work of some Russian based organisation, with the possibility that innocent bystanders present at the site of his poisoning may have been affected, but there's no outrage, no finger pointing, merely a calm response to the Russian authorities for any information they may have.

I don't attribute more importance to one murder or the other, but the response goes a long way to explain why the West gets less cooperation from places like Syria.

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Why, everybody knows Gemayal was assassinated not for any sort of political reason, but for rubbing another man's rhubarb.

Honestly lynx, your default position always seems to be the one with the most salacious and conspiratory potential.

Actually, I meant to start a thread about Gemayal's demise yesterday, but my plate was a bit full.

I would have begun by casting about for opinions as to the nature of the intent of those responsible, but I'd have thought we'd get at least a couple of pages into it before anyone made that assertion.