-
Re: If a tree falls in the forest and there is nobody around..
/moved to the drawingroom
-
Re: If a tree falls in the forest and there is nobody around..
Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbes
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr JP Fugley
"What is interesting is that sound and light were originally defined as separate entities and sound was described as having a certain "frequency", while when referring to light, its properties were described in "wavelength". These labels persist today, but now we appreciate the electromagnetic spectrum."
What in the name of fuck does the electromagnetic spectrum have to do with sound.
"While one frequency is perceived as "sound" another is perceived as visible light. There is no difference other than how long the wavelength is."
What does that mean, you jump from frequency to wavelength.
"So both sound and vision are "perceptions", not real entities.
What about the duality of light, you know "photons" and so forth,
"Sound" and "vision" are the labels we put on real entities and these labels are used by our ability to perceive.
There are no absolute entities called "sounds", that is just a label we place on a certain range of frequencies.
Jumping from frequency to wavelength is a historic term. Different fields of science were investigating different entities. One group studying sound/radiowaves found it useful to describe something as having a certain frequency. Another group was studying "light/uv/xray" and described these as having a certain "wavelength". Then it dawned on them that light and sound weren't different entities, but just occupied different areas of this thing called the electromagnetic frequency spectrum.
wavelength= speed/frequency
The label of describing radiowaves in hertz(frequency) and light waves in nanometers (wavelength) is remnant of this history.
have you actually gone mad, because that's what it looks like.
"Then it dawned on them that light and sound weren't different entities, but just occupied different areas of this thing called the electromagnetic frequency spectrum."
http://www.lbl.gov/images/MicroWorlds/EMSpec.gif
sound is not there, coz it's not electromagnetic.
-
Re: If a tree falls in the forest and there is nobody around..
Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbes
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr JP Fugley
Me:
"Sound" is a what we call specific wavelengths which we can perceive. As I clearly stated, it is a physical transmission of certain frequencies.
You:[/COLOR]
It is the transfer of energy, through a physical medium. That range is wider than we can perceive, so we call the bit we can perceive "sound".
What is the argument?
well firstly, see my last
and b, you said that sound did not exist in it's own right, that sound was us perceiving things.
-
Re: If a tree falls in the forest and there is nobody around..
Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbes
Quote:
Originally Posted by j2k4
Sounds like a pretty intelligent design to me. :)
You can "hear" intelligent design?
I can deduce intelligent design, and I do so in this instance.
-
Re: If a tree falls in the forest and there is nobody around..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr JP Fugley
Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbes
What is the argument?
well firstly, see my last
and b, you said that sound did not exist in it's own right, that sound was us perceiving things.
Sound and light both have energy. The amount of energy is related to the frequency times the wavelength.
Light has a much higher energy than sound because it travels at the speed of light, wheras sound is propagated much more slowly and its frequency lives to the left of your chart.
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/Wavelen...encyMedium.jpg
There is no such things as a "sound", that is a perception of an external stimulus. It is what we call a medium that is compressed at a certain frequency.
The frequency of an ultrasound transducer is not audible to us, but it is a physical wave propagated through a medium, just like what we call "sound".
If I could "hear" it then I would call it sound, but since I cannot, I do not call it sound. The distinction of what is called a "sound" and what is not is based on our ability to perceive it, not on some absolute quality.
In another world the frequency of visible light might evoke the perception of "sound" to that being.
-
Re: If a tree falls in the forest and there is nobody around..
Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbes
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr JP Fugley
well firstly, see my last
and b, you said that sound did not exist in it's own right, that sound was us perceiving things.
Sound and light both have energy. The amount of energy is related to the frequency times the wavelength.
Light has a much higher energy than sound because it travels at the speed of light, wheras sound is propagated much more slowly and its frequency lives to the left of your chart.
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/Wavelen...encyMedium.jpg
There is no such things as a "sound", that is a perception of an external stimulus. It is what we call a medium that is compressed at a certain frequency.
The frequency of an ultrasound transducer is not audible to us, but it is a physical wave propagated through a medium, just like what we call "sound".
If I could "hear" it then I would call it sound, but since I cannot, I do not call it sound. The distinction of what is called a "sound" and what is not is based on our ability to perceive it, not on some absolute quality.
In another world the frequency of visible light might evoke the perception of "sound" to that being.
Sold!
-
Re: If a tree falls in the forest and there is nobody around..
Quote:
Originally Posted by j2k4
Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbes
Sound and light both have energy. The amount of energy is related to the frequency times the wavelength.
So, sound is still not electromagnetic in nature.
Light has a much higher energy than sound because it travels at the speed of light, wheras sound is propagated much more slowly and its frequency lives to the left of your chart.
Of course it lives to the left of the chart, because the chart you posted is electromagnetic and then some, it has nothing to do with the point.
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/Wavelen...encyMedium.jpg
There is no such things as a "sound", that is a perception of an external stimulus. It is what we call a medium that is compressed at a certain frequency.
Semantics and incorrect at that. "Vibrations transmitted through an elastic solid or a liquid or gas, with frequencies in the approximate range of 20 to 20,000 hertz, capable of being detected by human organs of hearing." "capable of being detected", not "a perception which is the result of external stimulii"
The frequency of an ultrasound transducer is not audible to us, but it is a physical wave propagated through a medium, just like what we call "sound".
Specious
If I could "hear" it then I would call it sound, but since I cannot, I do not call it sound. The distinction of what is called a "sound" and what is not is based on our ability to perceive it, not on some absolute quality.
"If I could hear it .. " exactly, the point is whether it is capable of being heard.
In another world the frequency of visible light might evoke the perception of "sound" to that being.
Thanks for that, so fuck
Sold!
Bought a pup then
-
Re: If a tree falls in the forest and there is nobody around..
You could have at least made the colours relevant, Roy G. Biv.
-
Re: If a tree falls in the forest and there is nobody around..
Quote:
Originally Posted by manker
You could have at least made the colours relevant, Roy G. Biv.
I'm a free spirit.
I still feel uncomfortable about split infinitives btw.
-
Re: If a tree falls in the forest and there is nobody around..
Quote:
Originally Posted by JPaul
Quote:
Originally Posted by manker
You could have at least made the colours relevant, Roy G. Biv.
I'm a free spirit.
I still feel uncomfortable about split infinitives btw.
That's because you're old skool, old boy.
What we ought to do is wait til someone posts one, preferably a barely literate foreigner, and have a wee chat about it in a condescending manner.
You know it makes sense.
-
Re: If a tree falls in the forest and there is nobody around..
Quote:
Originally Posted by JPaul
Quote:
Originally Posted by manker
You could have at least made the colours relevant, Roy G. Biv.
I'm a free spirit.
I still feel uncomfortable about split infinitives btw.
Splitting infinitives = uncomfortable
Splitting hairs = snug as a bug in a rug.
Thanks for that fuck.
This thread brought to you by the word "specious". Just say it and it is so.
-
Re: If a tree falls in the forest and there is nobody around..
Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbes
This thread brought to you by the word "specious". Just say it and it is so.
I've noticed JP hardly uses the word specious, unless it's directed at you. With the abundance of speciousity evident in almost all quarters of this forum; there is only one conclusion that can be drawn.
That conclusion is definitely not that your posts are specious, btw :smilie4:
-
Re: If a tree falls in the forest and there is nobody around..
Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbes
Quote:
Originally Posted by JPaul
I'm a free spirit.
I still feel uncomfortable about split infinitives btw.
Splitting infinitives = uncomfortable
Splitting hairs = snug as a bug in a rug.
Thanks for that fuck.
This thread brought to you by the word "specious". Just say it and it is so.
You were still talking pish.
Pish wrapped up in fancy dan words is still pish.
-
Re: If a tree falls in the forest and there is nobody around..
-
Re: If a tree falls in the forest and there is nobody around..
Quote:
Originally Posted by manker
/me flounces
Only when on t'Babycham tho'.
-
Re: If a tree falls in the forest and there is nobody around..
Quote:
Originally Posted by JPaul
Quote:
Originally Posted by manker
/me flounces
Only when on t'Babycham tho'.
9 B4 9, matey :snooty:
I'd loike to see you - or any of your kith and kin - perform that feet.
-
Re: If a tree falls in the forest and there is nobody around..
Quote:
Originally Posted by manker
Quote:
Originally Posted by JPaul
Only when on t'Babycham tho'.
9 B4 9, matey :snooty:
I'd loike to see you - or any of your kith and kin - perform that feet.
I couldn't even try it, I do however have a 7 year old daughter who may be up to the challenge.
-
Re: If a tree falls in the forest and there is nobody around..
Quote:
Originally Posted by JPaul
Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbes
Splitting infinitives = uncomfortable
Splitting hairs = snug as a bug in a rug.
Thanks for that fuck.
This thread brought to you by the word "specious". Just say it and it is so.
You were still talking pish.
Pish wrapped up in fancy dan words is still pish.
specious
-
Re: If a tree falls in the forest and there is nobody around..
Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbes
Quote:
Originally Posted by JPaul
You were still talking pish.
Pish wrapped up in fancy dan words is still pish.
specious
I put a lot of work into it.
-
Re: If a tree falls in the forest and there is nobody around..
Quote:
Originally Posted by JPaul
Quote:
Originally Posted by manker
9 B4 9, matey :snooty:
I'd loike to see you - or any of your kith and kin - perform that feet.
I couldn't even try it, I do however have a 7 year old daughter who may be up to the challenge.
You don't wean your weans on Asda Apple, Shirley.
-
Re: If a tree falls in the forest and there is nobody around..
Quote:
Originally Posted by manker
Quote:
Originally Posted by JPaul
I couldn't even try it, I do however have a 7 year old daughter who may be up to the challenge.
You don't wean your weans on Asda Apple, Shirley.
What else would I use :blink:
Is wee manlet enjoying his pureed lava bread btw.
-
Re: If a tree falls in the forest and there is nobody around..
Quote:
Originally Posted by JPaul
Quote:
Originally Posted by manker
You don't wean your weans on Asda Apple, Shirley.
What else would I use :blink:
Is wee manlet enjoying his pureed lava bread btw.
Indeed, he polishes it off quicker than your average teenager.
Edit: The, err, lavabread, I mean :dabs:
-
Re: If a tree falls in the forest and there is nobody around..
Quote:
Originally Posted by manker
Quote:
Originally Posted by JPaul
What else would I use :blink:
Is wee manlet enjoying his pureed lava bread btw.
Indeed, he polishes it off quicker than your average teenager.
Edit: The, err, lavabread, I mean :dabs:
:lol: :lol: :lol: :irl:
Double Entendre ftw.
-
Re: If a tree falls in the forest and there is nobody around..
I have often looked upon ancient places and wondered what ears heard the waves crash on the shoreline or heard the strains of ropes and wood as monoliths were raised to mark time and tide.
I am of the view that the science and the philosophy discussed here are talking at cross purposes.
Of course the components that go to make up the experience we call sound are in the forest when the tree falls - regardless. The meaning we give to sound will equally obviously be absent if there is no one there to translate that experience and give it meaning.
The object of the exercise is to understand the meaning of experience not the nature of sound. It was not intended to be a philosophical parlour game - although it has to be said this particular question seems a perennial favourite of undergraduates .... usually after several beers and a large lentil curry :)
-
Re: If a tree falls in the forest and there is nobody around..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Biggles
I have often looked upon ancient places and wondered what ears heard the waves crash on the shoreline or heard the strains of ropes and wood as monoliths were raised to mark time and tide.
I am of the view that the science and the philosophy discussed here are talking at cross purposes.
Oh there you go again bringing poetry and logic to the table.
Ruined the whole thing, did you.*
BTW, your Temp Taper Fade is lookin a bit alreet, Skeet.
Not as l33t as mine, but passable.
*Still channeling Yoda...not sure why.
-
Re: If a tree falls in the forest and there is nobody around..
/me thinks
:blink:
/moved to wtfworld. :dabs:
Hobbes talks some sense, but sort of spoiled it for me when he said sound = light. :(
Everyone else talks pish. :sly:
It's a philosophical question, but if we can't agree on a definition of sound, then we can't reach a consensus. Personally, I think it makes a sound, because it causes the compressions in the air that we can detect as sound.. Just because there is nobody there to detect them, doesn't mean the sound does not exist...
However, this is entirely based on my definition of sound... (which I know differs from Hobbes')
-
Re: If a tree falls in the forest and there is nobody around..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbarossa
but if we can't agree on a definition of sound, then we can't reach a consensus.
Why would we have to agree a definition of sound, it's already been defined.
-
Re: If a tree falls in the forest and there is nobody around..
Vin Diesel would hear the tree, no matter where he was at the time.
-
Re: If a tree falls in the forest and there is nobody around..
Quote:
Originally Posted by JPaul
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbarossa
but if we can't agree on a definition of sound, then we can't reach a consensus.
Why would we have to agree a definition of sound, it's already been defined.
But if Barbie desires a consensus...:huh:
-
Re: If a tree falls in the forest and there is nobody around..
Quote:
Originally Posted by j2k4
Quote:
Originally Posted by JPaul
Why would we have to agree a definition of sound, it's already been defined.
But if Barbie desires a consensus...:huh:
I hate the whole consensus thing, who's with me.
-
Re: If a tree falls in the forest and there is nobody around..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Agrajag
Quote:
Originally Posted by j2k4
But if Barbie desires a consensus...:huh:
I hate the whole consensus thing, who's with me.
I agree, but I'll have nothing to do with you.
-
Re: If a tree falls in the forest and there is nobody around..
Quote:
Originally Posted by j2k4
Quote:
Originally Posted by Agrajag
I hate the whole consensus thing, who's with me.
I agree, but I'll have nothing to do with you.
That's the ticket.
-
Re: If a tree falls in the forest and there is nobody around..
Quote:
Originally Posted by JPaul
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbarossa
but if we can't agree on a definition of sound, then we can't reach a consensus.
Why would we have to agree a definition of sound, it's already been defined.
That's not what I heard. :huh:
-
Re: If a tree falls in the forest and there is nobody around..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbarossa
Quote:
Originally Posted by JPaul
Why would we have to agree a definition of sound, it's already been defined.
That's not what I heard. :huh:
So you were in the forest then?
-
Re: If a tree falls in the forest and there is nobody around..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbarossa
Quote:
Originally Posted by JPaul
Why would we have to agree a definition of sound, it's already been defined.
That's not what I heard. :huh:
We really do need the :babum-dish: smillie.
-
Re: If a tree falls in the forest and there is nobody around..
Quote:
Originally Posted by clocker
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbarossa
That's not what I heard. :huh:
So you were in the forest then?
I was a bear taking a shit.
Yes - I heard the bastard tree. Missed me by a whisker, and squashed my roll of "Charmin".
Had to use a bastard chipmunk to wipe again... :angry:
-
Re: If a tree falls in the forest and there is nobody around..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbarossa
Had to use a bastard chipmunk to wipe again... :angry:
Not hard to find though. Chipmunks are not allowed to marry in any states. Apart from Texas.
-
Re: If a tree falls in the forest and there is nobody around..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbarossa
Quote:
Originally Posted by clocker
So you were in the forest then?
I was a bear taking a shit.
What is the ursine definition of "sound"?
-
Re: If a tree falls in the forest and there is nobody around..
Talking phish about the eye is known as :
http://www.andrewlost.com/images/vis...e/rods_eye.jpg ing
Obviousmente.
-
Re: If a tree falls in the forest and there is nobody around..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbarossa
Quote:
Originally Posted by clocker
So you were in the forest then?
I was a bear taking a shit.
Had to use a bastard chipmunk to wipe again... :angry:
Did you kill it first, or after? :huh:
