i was gonna say im not "fucking interested" but i didn't wanna be accused of thuggery. :dabs:
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i was gonna say im not "fucking interested" but i didn't wanna be accused of thuggery. :dabs:
Like I said, there was no violence.Quote:
Originally Posted by manicgeek
And some of the protesters thought it could do with having a bit of violence putting back into it did they ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Squeamous
Have you ? Where was that then ?
I'm not even sure what the actions of one person have to do with the validity of the protest as a whole anyway, even if that person were behaving badly, which he wasn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Biggles
Theoretically the torch belongs to all mankind anyway :shifty:.
Yeah Alien5 has told me... the people who were hurt in scuffles weren't hurt by the violence of course :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Squeamous
Really! You think assaulting some one isn't behaving badly ? WOW :blink:Quote:
Originally Posted by Squeamous
And of course it was the same man who Alien5 saw getting injured repeatedly in 'scuffles' with the police wasn't it ? He must be some kind of thicko to repeatedly get himself injured in lots of different scuffles eh ?
Yeah i saw the Thug. :rolleyes:
The only people I saw injured in scuffles were the ones launched upon by the police. They are also the only assaults I witnessed. I'm starting to think you were watching Ghandi or something, not the news.Quote:
Originally Posted by manicgeekReally! You think assaulting some one isn't behaving badly ? WOW :blink:Quote:
Originally Posted by Squeamous
And of course it was the same man who Alien5 saw getting injured repeatedly in 'scuffles' with the police wasn't it ? He must be some kind of thicko to repeatedly get himself injured in lots of different scuffles eh ?
:glag:Quote:
Originally Posted by Squeamous
Now come on Squeamous, you missed the opportunity to make a joke out of my dislike of seeing a young woman attacked on the streets of my country... I'm sure you can find a way to make that funny can't you ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Squeamous
Wow! By my count manicgeek 12 lounge 2.
Time to bring in the big guns.
Olympic Thuggery
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/image...26x282bike.jpg
changing the subject yet again, must be brushing up on his news.Quote:
Originally Posted by manicgeekNow come on Squeamous, you missed the opportunity to make a joke out of my dislike of seeing a young woman attacked on the streets of my country... I'm sure you can find a way to make that funny can't you ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Squeamous
You're arguing over the most effective form of protest, like.
That's all relative to whether or not the media gives two fucks.
A Buddhist monk self-immolating will probably get you a day and a half of intermittent reportage but a Buddhist monk trying to extinguish a flame will get you just the same.
There's an inevitable ironing in there somewheres.
Really ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Alien5
So come one then oh smart alien one, what different subjects have I covered ?
As far as I know, it's been about thuggish behaviour and how that has served the interests of the people of Tibet poorly...
No, I fully exploited the opportunity to make fun of the fact that you think you saw a woman attacked in the street with my 'Ghandi' comment. I miss a lot of things but that kind of opportunity is too easy to miss. I'm surprised you missed it.Quote:
Originally Posted by manicgeekNow come on Squeamous, you missed the opportunity to make a joke out of my dislike of seeing a young woman attacked on the streets of my country... I'm sure you can find a way to make that funny can't you ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Squeamous
Did you know that every day women are attacked on the streets of your country, in actual real life...I mean not in your head. I'm sure any one of those would look upon your insistance that Konnie Huq was attacked with a measure of disbelief.
did you watch the news? there were thugs grabbing the olympics thing from somegirl from blue peter.
I'm sure the nutters in our society will take great heart from your willingness to dismiss a man assaulting a woman on the streets of Britain, and may all women feel safe in the knowledge that when someone assaults them and takes or attempts to take something from them they can always say well some woman was attacked in a worse way than me, so it's alright for me to be attacked like this can't they ? :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Squeamous
I did....and Harrison Ford grabbed this flaming skewer and threw it at one of the Niponese and it pierced him right through the.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Alien5
Hang on. That was Raiders of the Lost Ark :rolleyes:. My bad.
I'm not sure 'the nutters in society' all read FST so prolly not.Quote:
Originally Posted by manicgeek
See what this boils down to is the ridiculous way some people like to exaggerate very mild events to prove a point. Like the way people often compare modern Western leaders to Hitler. Which I know you hate.
Ah! So now you think I'm exaggerating the assault on young Miss Huq... so you admit there was an assault then ? And this assault was committed by a decent respectable upright citizen wasn't it ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Squeamous
first "thugs" then "nutters", any more people you'd like to insult? :blink:Quote:
Originally Posted by manicgeekI'm sure the nutters in our society will take great heart from your willingness to dismiss a man assaulting a woman on the streets of Britain, and may all women feel safe in the knowledge that when someone assaults them and takes or attempts to take something from them they can always say well some woman was attacked in a worse way than me, so it's alright for me to be attacked like this can't they ? :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Squeamous
No I said you were exaggerating a very mild event. If you're going to start doing that 'leading' point making you love so much you can just give it up now because I'm too smart to fall for it. I can see it ratcheting up from a mile away.
Ah! I forgot I'm a member of the weaker sex in your opinion aren't I, you can analysis my behaviour because you're a woman and tell me what I'm going to do and say can't you :lol:
You're being unfair now, squeamous. I just watched it, and he nearly touched her, you know.
[youtube]1-KMVWRFLes[/youtube]
[youtube]JeZ2kaFMeb4[/youtube]
:o
Nah, it's because I know you so well ;).Quote:
Originally Posted by manicgeek
Manicgeek was wrong and he knew he was wrong and still ....
Come on you have to admit that was impressive.:yup:
:lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Snee
Well you know, those goons surrounding her were Chinese secret police, and they did spend all day pushing around the organisers and met police, so that protestor never stood a chance.
I wonder how MG feels about these people walking our streets?
Nah, men never admit they're wrong :noes:. Ten a penny my friend.Quote:
Originally Posted by IdolEyes787
Oh! You know full well that I would have your friendly thug strung up from the nearest lamppost....Quote:
Originally Posted by Squeamous
No but we don't half keep getting told we are, because women can never admit they are.Quote:
Originally Posted by Squeamous
You're so right.Quote:
Originally Posted by SqueamousNah, men never admit they're wrong :noes:. Ten a penny my friend.Quote:
Originally Posted by IdolEyes787
You liar.
And on that note...
What people... law abiding ones you mean... better than thugs I'd say... you obviously wouldn't !Quote:
Originally Posted by Squeamous
No you don't apparently.Quote:
Originally Posted by Squeamous
Archbishop and Nobel Peace Prize laureate Desmond Tutu urged world leaders not to go to the Games.
"Tell your counterparts in Beijing you wanted to come but looked at your schedule and realised you have something else to do."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asi...ic/7337925.stm
- do something else. :lol:
In order to give someone a bit of a thugging one has to strike them, verbally abuse them or attack their property. The chap in question was an older middle aged chap of non-thuggish demeanour. He did not hit Konnie or abuse her verbally. He grabbed the torch as a political act and obviously expected to not get far - indeed the surprise was that he got to the torch at all considering the number of police around it. The protest was in the holding of the torch. To compare that to say the anti-globalisation riots where whole streets are trashed seems to me to be something of a dilution of the word thug. It is bit like saying a Mini is big and so is a Hummer. At this rate we could reduce the English language to about three words.
One might question whether direct action makes any difference but equally one could ask whether giving the Chinese lucrative contracts and the Olympic games makes any difference. If our political leaders appear complicit in the oppression of the Tibetan people are we right to sit on our butts and not let them know we are less than happy?
Turning this towards a more positive frame, what are the alternatives. Boycott of all Chinese products? Boycott of all UK companies who buy Chinese products? Boycott of the Olympics?
ORQuote:
Originally Posted by Biggles
Accept that the Chinese have a right to Tibet and that the Tibetans claims to be an independent state are false ? Ignore the Tibetan situation and allow them to sort it out for themselves ? Stop telling every other country how they can act (based entirely upon our own view of what is acceptable) ? Start acting as a nation state that recognises the rights of other nation states ?
Well we must try an balance the debate Les.
We could do that although the claim does not look desperately strong on paper. It seems to be based on the fact that the Mongols conquered both Tibet and China in the 13th century and that the Chinese see themselves as successors to that Empire. Prior to that Tibet was pretty much separate - in fact in the 7th to 9th centuries bits of Western China were subject to the Tibetan Empire.
Equally we could let them sort it out themselves but as there are only a few million Tibetans and a billion Chinese that doesn't seem much of a starter to get anywhere.
Was the invasion in 1950 legitimate? If not then perhaps international law is Tibet's best recourse. As a co-signatory we are duty bound to uphold their rights under international law. However, although appropriate nods have been given towards such rights the World continues to actively deal with China despite questionable activity in Tibet, Burma and Sudan. I am realistic about this though. Money buys the law and the Chinese are very rich these days and own a lot of Western debt. We aren't going to rock any political boats even if it does stick in our craws.
Personally, I think the best the Tibetans can hope for is a return of their Lama and more religious and cultural freedoms. Tibet is China's launching platform for its IBMs - it is not going anywhere.
I personally think there is nothing we can do to change China politically, we will have to wait for market forces to do that, we can encourage those market forces to become the primary driver of China by means of trade though.
Whilst China remains in the political state it is in (and has been in since the cultural revolution) Tibet has no chance of ever gaining any kind of freedom at all, and even after a political change there will be a period of time before a state the size of China sorts itself out to a point where the Tibetans will have any chance... in other words I don't think it'll change in my life time, but if they're lucky it might happen in my childrens lifetime... assuming we've not all melted by then ;)
And for all of the fun I've had on this thread I do think the protests are a valid and good thing, if only because it shows support for the Tibetan people themselves.
Trouble is, in the first half of the last century Tibet was functioning as a separate state only in name because I didn't go through the official route to independence. It just declared itself so while there was a power vacuum in China and they got kind of forgotten in the mayhem. China has a pretty strong claim on Tibet, as strong as any. Tibet was conquered and became part of China and has a long long history of such. Even the international community recognises Chinese rule and not the exiled Tibetan government. China also has some claims to have improved the lives of the people in Tibet from what it was before they took it back.Quote:
Originally Posted by Biggles
Still, I'm not sure anyone has a right to take a country over just because they think they can do a better job of running it than the indigenous population :dry:.
I can't see Tibetan independence being the immediate goal. They must be allowed religious and cultural freedom though. The current method of control of those things coupled with restriction of movement of people and the building of rail and infrastructure to faciliate movement remind me of something.....