Things like 'Burning Bush' spring to mind. :D
Printable View
Things like 'Burning Bush' spring to mind. :D
So it is agreed... Texas is now known as Israel.
on other business.... I dont get the "'burning bush'" thing? :unsure:
Like Bush from Texas, angry maybe?
Once every one settles down, and Sharon stops killing his neighbours for terrorist acts, such as having a BBQ while he's in his garden or something, everything will be peaceful.
[cpt_azad posts]
[Clockos first reply]
Interesting stuff here.
The understatement of the century followed by a completely unsupportable assumption.
Bravo.
[Hobbes joins in]
Did he say 15 or 1.5 years of age.
I don't know whether to burp him or spank him. Anyway, he would be more comfortable in the lounge.
[cpt_azad posts]
[Hobbes replies]
I think his 15 is how many inches his head is up his ass.
[noname posts]
Must we go to petty insults?
[Rikk comments]
Well done lads, keep it up, you'll have an opinion of your own one day, just keep taking the tablets.
:)
More about the suffering of innocent families caused by the occupation of their land:
Quote:
From: "International Solidarity Movement" <[email protected]>
Subject: Press Release: "How Much Harassment Can One Family Face?"
For Immediate Release
Sun. 21/09/03 0800 (+2 GMT)
Jenin District, Palestine
How Much Harassment Can One Family Face?
Outside of Jenin in an area called Kharba Ghanib, on Monday two houses were demolished by the Israeli military, leaving 35 people homeless. Now, the families of this community have been barred from farming their land.
Over the last two years, over 100 dunams (25 acres) of family farmland has been taken by military force, annexed to the nearby Kadim settlement. What remains is unusable, due to harassment by Israeli soldiers and settlers, who claim the families' land is "too close to the settlement", situated nearly half a kilometer away.
Throughout the week, activists from the International Solidarity Movement (ISM) have visited the families, on several occasions accompanying the families to their farmland, near the settlement. Gunfire and arson by settlers and indiscriminate machine-gun fire by Israeli soldiers make even plowing or watering crops a life-
threatening activity. Again today, ISM and other human rights activists from the Jenin district will accompany the farmers, in hopes that the presence of outside observers will prevent violence.
Despite everything, even in the face of threats of further demolitions and seizures, the families of this community are determined to stay. Said Hassan Khalif, a farmer and father of five: "Our families' land in Haifa was taken in 1948, in 1968 we built these homes; (later) they took some of our land, then in 1980 they took a hundred dunams to build a settlement. Then they tell us we cannot farm on our land, which we have the (legal right) to. Then they killed 3 of our daughters. Then they take our houses. What else is there? Our homes, our children, and our land... what else is there to take?"
For more information contact:
International Solidarity Movement Jenin
(Arabic:) Youseff + 972-(0)59-358-055
(English:) Mostafa + 972-(0)54-627-026
That was a bit harsh! I will edit that line. Shame on me. Petty personal insults are not my style, usually <_<Quote:
Originally posted by Billy_Dean@22 September 2003 - 06:46
[cpt_azad posts]
[Hobbes joins in]
Did he say 15 or 1.5 years of age.
I don't know whether to burp him or spank him. Anyway, he would be more comfortable in the lounge.
[Hobbes replies]
I think his 15 is how many inches his head is up his ass.
:)
Anyway, I just wanted to redirect him away from the deep end and back to the kiddie pool.
Everyone is fighting with everyone else.
neibours,football supporters,spouces.
so why not these two, people talk of peace, it has never existed and never will.
humans fight and hunt thats how the race has survived so long, the problems came when people tryed to make peace this was the start of over population,starvation and destroying the environment.
LET THEM GET ON WITH IT AND SORT OUT YOUR OWN LIVES ! :angry:
okay, if i'm really kid, why do i know so much about this conflict? WAIT! ur gonna probably reply saying that all my "facts" are unsupported and biased, well, isn't everyone's opinion biased in some way (and no, i'm not saying mine is)? but one thing it isn't, is unsupported. just go to google and type in this subject matter, u'll find hundreds of millions of ppl who support my opinion on this matter(well, not my opinion really, but u know what i mean). oh, btw, thanks for withdrawing ur earlier reply, u almost made me cry :'( , :lol: . okay, i think it's time to close this thread. :oQuote:
way, I just wanted to redirect him away from the deep end and back to the kiddie pool.
:ph34r:
just wanna say nice title and avatar noname12.
I find your opinion rather strange. Innocent people are dying, not just the people who actually take part in the fighting. So of course the world should help find peace.Quote:
Everyone is fighting with everyone else.
neibours,football supporters,spouces.
so why not these two, people talk of peace, it has never existed and never will.
humans fight and hunt thats how the race has survived so long, the problems came when people tryed to make peace this was the start of over population,starvation and destroying the environment.
LET THEM GET ON WITH IT AND SORT OUT YOUR OWN LIVES !
Thanks mogadishu :)
the_painter say that when your people get murdered without mercy :P
Israeli pilots refuse to fly assassination missions
Conal Urquhart in Jerusalem
Thursday September 25, 2003
The Guardian
A group of Israeli airforce pilots declared yesterday that they would refuse to fly missions which could endanger civilians in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.
The declaration was aimed at Israel's policy of assassinating activists of Hamas, Islamic Jihad and the Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigade.
The 27 pilots sent a letter to the commander of Israel's airforce refusing to carry out duties, which include track and kill operations, in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. One of the pilots told Israeli television that the letter said: "We, veteran pilots and active pilots alike...are opposed to carrying out illegal and immoral attacks, of the type carried out by Israel in the territories.
"We, who have been educated to love the state of Israel refuse to take part in airforce attacks in civilian population centres. We refuse to continue harming innocent civilians."
It was unclear how many of the pilots were still active in the airforce, but reserve pilots are regularly called upon for missions.
A spokesman for the Israeli army said they never discussed the numbers of military personnel in any sector but said that the 27 pilots were "a drop in the ocean".
Brigadier General Ido Nehushtn of the Israeli airforce said the pilots were a "marginal, small group" of retired and reserve pilots. Israel's chief of army staff, Moshe Ya'alon, said the pilots could be punished for their "illegitimate" and "forbidden" statement.
Since August 19, Israel's airforce has killed 12 Hamas members and four bystanders. Over the past two years Israel's "targeted assassinations" have killed dozens of bystanders by using bombs wieghing up to one tonne in densely populated areas of the Gaza Strip.
Last month an attempt to kill Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, the spiritual leader of Hamas, failed because the Israelis used a 113kg (250Ib) bomb rather than a one-tonne bomb on the building where he was expected to attend a meeting.
Israeli intelligence believed that Sheikh Yassin was meeting associates on the third floor of the building, which the bomb destroyed, but as the meeting took place on the first floor he was uninjured.
The week before an attempt on Mahmoud Zahar, another Hamas leader, failed because he was sitting in his garden when a bomb hit his house in Gaza City.
His son and a bodyguard were killed in the attack and his wife was injured.
The Article
:)
Quote:
Originally posted by Conal Urquhart in Jerusalem+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Conal Urquhart in Jerusalem)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>A group of Israeli airforce pilots declared yesterday that they would refuse to fly missions which could endanger civilians in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. [/b]
Good on them, that must have taken some real balls to stand up to their superiors on this issue. It will be interesting to see what punishment they receive.
<!--QuoteBegin-Conal Urquhart in Jerusalem
Since August 19, Israel's airforce has killed 12 Hamas members and four bystanders. Over the past two years Israel's "targeted assassinations" have killed dozens of bystanders by using bombs wieghing up to one tonne in densely populated areas of the Gaza Strip[/quote]
Could someone explain, in really simple terms, why this is morally acceptable and why UK/US taxpayers money should go towards supporting it?
Apparently it is 'contrarian' not to support this indiscriminate slaughter. If someone could also explain why this is so, I'd really appreciate it.
Bagpuss, haven't seen you around for a while, how are you?
Did you catch this post mate?
Billy Dean=evilbagpuss, one and the same
:)
LMAO!!! Thanks for bringing it to my attention mate! I always seem to miss the good stuff!
I was going to say that a moderator should check our IP addresses / locations but it seems that it has already been done. Thanks Bender :)Quote:
Originally posted by j2k4
Two Brits living in Aussieland, with the same political M.O., the same propensity for superficial "philosophy", the same thought patterns, the same writing style, and neither of them (!) knows how to properly use the "quote" function on this board?
This is actually a good thing. I find it very encouraging to see j2k4 stoop to this level. Next time he tries on his "Im Mr Reasonable and Respectable, a fair player in all debates" act. We can just point him back to this. Lets focus on the worst aspect of this sad story...
I have never said I'm from Australia, in fact on multiple occassions I've stated that I'm from the UK. Every time this has been in a thread on the "world events" board where j2k4 and I regularly lock horns. So we must come to the conclusion that
J2k4 knows I do not live in Australia and has never seen a post from me claiming that I do. He has, however, seen me state, on more than one occasion, that I live in the UK.
So... as well as a childish personal attack on you and I, he also attempted to deceive everyone reading that thread.
A real man would apologise for such behaviour. I wont hold my breath waiting for it though...
PS
It has come to my attention that clocker and j2k4 both live in the United States and both hold similar political viewpoints on the Israel/Palestine issue.
After hours of research, soul searching, deep meditation and a lengthy forensic examination of the scene, I have come to the undeniable conclusion that this means absolutely fuck all!
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Evilbagpuss,
J2K4 simply made a mistake, and if you guys had bothered to read, I enlightened him of this error. J2 was confusing you with Echidna, who lives down under. You all share a similar POV on the topic under discussion.
http://www.klboard.ath.cx/index.php?act=ST...ndpost&p=505105Quote:
Well J2,
J2- EBP is from the UK, Billy Dean and Echidna are from Australia, don't forget myfiles3000 from Canada
I left a link, as the whole post would bring up bad memories for Billy and it might make you laugh if you understood the context. I don't want ol' EBP to laugh.
Since Bender cleared up the issue, why would you require an apology unless you were offended by being thought to be Billy Dean. If you were to accuse J2K4 of being Clocker (aka Clocko), you would be wrong, but J2 would certainly not be offended, he might even be a little flattered, who knows?
Anyway, I hope this stain on your name is something you can overcome.
J2k4 did not make a mistake. He wasnt confusing me with echidna. I think that is quite obvious. Let me show you.Quote:
J2K4 simply made a mistake, and if you guys had bothered to read, I enlightened him of this error. J2 was confusing you with Echidna, who lives down under. You all share a similar POV on the topic under discussion.
Billy congratulated me for 'flushing' him out. Not echidna. Your argument that this is all a misunderstanding of identity does not fit the facts.Quote:
Originally posted by j2k4
I found one where Billy "congratulated" himself....I mean, EBP, for "flushing me out".
The truth is that he knew perfectly well what he was doing and who he was referring to.
Why do I deserve an apology? Because it was a dirty underhand attempt to 'debunk' Billy_Deans and my views without actually addresing them. Again this is obvious.
Pretending to be 2 people and talking to yourself on a forum is pretty ridiculous.. yes? Being accused of such insane behaviour is a stain on ones name is it not?
I think its quite obvious why I am offended by this 'strategy'.
Hobbes was just pointing out that J2K4 mixed up where you and Echidna lived, he knew you were british, but thought you lived in Oz. I didn't read the thread when it came out, but i assumed the accusation was in jestQuote:
J2k4 knows I do not live in Australia
EvilBillypuss,
J2 apparently had an epiphany, or at least a strong cup of coffee, while reading the thread and decided to bring this revelation to the board. In this semi-manic state his memory failed to differentiate your homeland from Echidnas, as he likely stores information about you two on a single synapse due to your similar attitudes.
A single person, posting under 2 names is not unheard of and we must blame JPaul for planting this seed of suspicion in our minds.
As for deception, why would he start at thread avering that you 2 were one in the same? It must have been that he genuinely felt it to be true, and was hoping for confirmation from a mod.
If you look through the words to the meaning, you will see that the thread was basically asking a mod to confirm or deny his assertation. Being J2, his style was to go for the homerun (insert soccer equivalent), and state his convictions boldly.
True deception would have been to make this statement as a tactic to undermine your argument and credibility in a setting where there is no impartial body to confirm or deny this.
His thread stands there now, a clear reminder that he made a guess and was wrong. Live by the sword.......
Anyway, need we bring up your past deception, again. Given this history, it makes me wonder about your impartiality in this matter. Why you might have some use for portraying a mistake as an attempt at deception. Hmmm. Perhaps you are the one trying to deceive, again?
As for why you were offended, of course, it was obvious. Sometimes I like to intentionally misunderstand as well, to show people how aggravating it can be. I am a little insulted that you felt to need to explain the obvious to me :(
@ilw On the contrary I think j2k4 was quite serious, serious enough for the thread to be locked by a moderator at any rate. Although now he has been proved wrong I'm sure he will claim it was just a "bit of fun" and not malicious in any way shape of form.
Anyway.. back to the topic. I had a couple of questions in my last post.
Quote:
Originally posted by EBP+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (EBP)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-Conal Urquhart in Jerusalem
Since August 19, Israel's airforce has killed 12 Hamas members and four bystanders. Over the past two years Israel's "targeted assassinations" have killed dozens of bystanders by using bombs wieghing up to one tonne in densely populated areas of the Gaza Strip
Could someone explain, in really simple terms, why this is morally acceptable and why UK/US taxpayers money should go towards supporting it?
Apparently it is 'contrarian' not to support this indiscriminate slaughter. If someone could also explain why this is so, I'd really appreciate it.[/b][/quote]
I would love to hear an adequate answer to those 2 queries.
Quote:
Originally posted by hobbes+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (hobbes)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>If you look through the words to the meaning, you will see that the thread was basically asking a mod to confirm or deny his assertation[/b]
hmm... I'm afraid your going to have to spell it out for me hobbes. Where exactly did he ask a mod to deny or confirm his assertion? (At this point Im tempted to insult your spelling/grammar as you recently did to me but then I decide no I'm not going to drop to that level.)
Which words are we meant to "look through" precisely?
Read the thread again, even after he's been proved wrong he's still referring to "Billy/EPB".
Quote:
Originally posted by hobbes+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (hobbes)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>True deception would have been to make this statement as a tactic to undermine your argument and credibility in a setting where there is no impartial body to confirm or deny this[/b]
He did make a statement. It was a tactic. You either believe he is totally innocent or he is malicious. Im absolutely astounded by your "impartial body" comment. In the context of a forum it truly is nonsensical.
<!--QuoteBegin-hobbes@
Anyway, need we bring up your past deception, again. [/quote]
Wtf? What deception? More bullshit accusations? I think so.
<!--QuoteBegin-hobbes
Given this history, it makes me wonder about your impartiality in this matter. Why you might have some use for portraying a mistake as an attempt at deception. Hmmm. Perhaps you are the one trying to deceive, again?[/quote]
What history? Mistake, deception?? What a load of rubbish.
This is how it is.
You are trying to make out that poor old j2k4 made a silly mistake and that his intentions were as pure as the driven snow. This is obviously not the case. The only person trying to deceive people here is you. Your posts are not motivated by fairness or reason as much as you attempt to make them seem that way.
This can be seen in your insinuation that I have deceived people. Of course.. you will abandon this ASAP because there is no basis to it. I will be forced to badger you for days to get any answer regarding these 'accusations'.
Your transparent hobbes, and not half as clever as you would like to think. This is merely a case of "you guys" sticking together, so give up the "Im being Fair and Reasonable" act. Its not working.
Do you have an impartial body to verify that? ;)Quote:
As for why you were offended, of course, it was obvious. Sometimes I like to intentionally misunderstand as well, to show people how aggravating it can be. I am a little insulted that you felt to need to explain the obvious to me
Seriously though, people need to say what they mean and mean what they say. I have had enough "games" for one day. <_<
mate, you need to take a chill pill, this is a storm in a teacup if ever i saw one.
@ilw I am chilled B)
I am happy with the original j2k4 "issue". It shows his true colours.
What is pissing me off now is that hobbes is trying to twist things round in an Orwellian fashion whilst making some baseless accusations of his own. He is also doing this under a veneer of respectability in the same way that j2k4 used to operate.
Now I have to chase this one down as well.. tedious but necessary I'm afraid.
It all detracts from the subject of Israeli atrocities though.. which is good for certain individuals.. feel free to answer my questions.. I will be happy to continue on with the topic regardless of the two faced 'tactics' of some of my 'colleagues'.
The impartial observer is our moderating team. Sure they may not be impartial as individuals, but in a case of checking IP's they can pretty much be. They were able to confirm that EBP and Billy Dean are not the same person.Quote:
Originally posted by evilbagpuss@26 September 2003 - 18:55
(At this point Im tempted to insult your spelling/grammar as you recently did to me but then I decide no I'm not going to drop to that level.)
He did make a statement. It was a tactic. You either believe he is totally innocent or he is malicious. Im absolutely astounded by your "impartial body" comment. In the context of a forum it truly is nonsensical.
This is how it is.
Your posts are not motivated by fairness or reason as much as you attempt to make them seem that way.
Your transparent hobbes, and not half as clever as you would like to think. This is merely a case of "you guys" sticking together, so give up the "Im being Fair and Reasonable" act. Its not working.
Seriously though, people need to say what they mean and mean what they say. I have had enough "games" for one day. <_<
If the forum were unmoderated, then we would all be left to speculate. J2's assertion could either be wrong, right, or he could be attempting to deceive.
As a tactic, deception is pointless, because the mods can check this, and they did. And he knew they would.
I see neither malice nor innocence, I see a person who tried to put some data together and made a mistake. I have actually done the same myself in thinking that a certain banned member was posting under another name. You win some, you lose some.
Sorry if I corrected a typo- though I don't recall doing so, perhaps that was under my other persona JPaul ;) .
I think that these two links will remind you of what I meant by your prior deception. I will just post the links for brevity sake. I think the first post also covers my philosophy on the purpose of the forum. The second post has a link which further bears out my motivations (It is only 1 sentence).
I will tell you that I am often wrong, but I always attempt to be reasonable and fair, otherwise I would be wasting my time here. I do not subscribe to the "buddy" system, but in this area (Israel/Palestine issue) perhaps J2 and I have common ground. We do disagree and debate on other subjects, but respectfully as we appreciate the honesty of the others opinions. If you were to look back at my less than polite entry into this forum (sorry again Skweeky), you will see that J2 and I locked horns early.
http://www.klboard.ath.cx/index.php?act=ST...ndpost&p=327719
http://www.klboard.ath.cx/index.php?act=ST...ndpost&p=328031
I will not discuss this above topic again, I will let any interested member read that thread (and you will need to read much more than those links as my role in that thread was minor) and decide for himself if you portrayed yourself honestly.
I agree with your last line, if it still is, your post seems to be growing as I try to repond. I will gladly endeavor to discuss topics to find a solution and not to mindlessly defend point of view. Discussions do not involve name calling or insults to the others intelligence.
Edit: added a clarification
I see, so my "deception" is being pro-Palestinian because I referred to "laughing Israelis".
Not very convincing hobbes.
I have seen videos of laughing Israelis having their picture taken by a colleague whilst they stand over the body of a dead Palestinian.
I'm afraid "laughing Israelis" is reality not bias.
My whole argument in relation to this issue is that Israeli atrocities have been supported by the West and largely hidden from the taxpayers who fund it. The fact that this creates more terrorism and provides support for extremists shouldnt be such a hard concept for people to grasp.
If this is a "biased" viewpoint.. then we seem to have 2 different definitions of what the word biased means. If that is pro-Palestinian... we need a new dictionary.
So.. deception? I think not.
Lets think about this though. I mention "laughing Israelis" and everyone goes absolutely mad with rage.
Israel regularly drops 1 tonne bombs on crowded civilian areas and people such as yourself, j2k4 and clocker shrug their shoulders and say "so what"?
Shock+Awe confidently states that Islam is "evil from its very inception" and no one bats an eyelid.
Israel bulldozes the family homes of suicide bombers and you support and defend it.
Yet.. I am biased?? I am deceptive?? What an insane state of affairs... Anyone who supports these actions yet claims to be anything other than a psychopath is deceptive in the extreme.
For example...
hmm what does this mean I wonder... I take it to mean there is no such thing as an innocent Palestinian (observe the 'clever' use of quote marks) but do you think j2k4 would actually say it outright? Of course not.Quote:
Originally posted by j2k4
EBP goes on and on about an Israeli bomb/missile going off in the midst of a block of "innocent" Palestinians, and demands an explanation/justification.
Thats what I call deception. It was also the catalyst for j2k4's innocent "mistake" and so we come full circle...
"I am pro-people."-EBP
In the thread you sold yourself as unbiased and for the "people". It later was revealed that you had a very strong bias.
You misrepresented yourself as the impartial observer with no bias. You used this to try and sell the implied story that "any impartial observer would come to this conclusion". As the discussion progressed your impartial observer mask fell away and your true self stepped forward.
My response:
"Wow, full blown overt bias, should have been there from post one. Keeps credibility if you post your stance. You claimed to be unbiased and have lied.
There is nothing wrong with being pro-palestinean, in fact, I welcome the input of both sides. The problem stems from the inflexibility of religion, and when there is mortal conflict, compromise/resolution may not be possible"
That is what I am talking about.
Please continue to chase me down as I need the exercise :lol: I'm going for a run, quite literally, I will pretend that you are on my heels and gaining! Don't forget to stretch out.
Cool it guys......
EBP:
You know that this is the www....you are posting and only the MODs see your IP and can do the whois...just because you SAY you are from somewhere, does not necessarily mean you are.
If members are using Proxies, then they can appear to be posting from different parts of the globe etc, even for our whois.
I happen to know your ISP is a UK one, and isnt using Proxies....so i know you are posting from the UK.
I know that Billy is posting via Australia...however I havent checked to see if he IS in Australia (I assume Bender has ;) )
I hope you see the point im trying to make.....ilw is right, this is a storm in a teacup. As ultimately, someone that knows IT can fake who they are and where they are.
In this instance; j2k4 is incorrect.
At another time, we may not be able to verify that such an assertion is incorrect.
Well I've just read back through those threads Hobbes, I saw EPB and RF trying to discuss openly, and Clocko sticking to his stated bias.
Whilst your posts were certainly more even, you still seem to defend your countymen as a matter of habit. In this case, you attack EBP's "bias" whilst defending Clocko's.
One disturbing aspect of this and the other Israel\Palestine thread, is the reluctance of the pro-Israel camp to answer all the questions put to them. The usual way of circumventing this is to launch into personal attacks.
I'll state my bias here, again, - I am pro Palestinian. This does not mean I agree with everything that happens from the Palestinian side, it means that I believe the Palestinians are getting a very raw deal. Holding that view, I also believe that the two main antagonists in this conflict are Israel and the US, not Hamas, or the PLO, or any other Palestinian organisation.
The key to peace is land, Israel holds the land, you tell me where the solution lies.
:)
Well put, whether I agree with you on a topic or not is irrelevant. When we enter a discussion, it is useful to indicate our relationship to the situation so people can get a feel for what might affect our perception of a situation. From this point the discussion can move forward.
In this case, an objective discussion can only begin when we know:
1) Are you pro-palestinean
2) Are you pro-Israeli
3) Are you simply antisemitic (meaning that you could care less about Palestine, you just want to bad things to come to the Jews).
4) Do you have anger toward American foreign policy, making you more anti-Israel rather than truly pro-palestinean. You pretend you are pro-palestinean to hide your true agenda.
I personally find emotive threads suspect and just an attempt at manipulation. You can make your point without trying to elicit "stock response".
Do I really attack EBP's bias?
"There is nothing wrong with being pro-palestinean, in fact, I welcome the input of both sides. The problem stems from the inflexibility of religion, and when there is mortal conflict, compromise/resolution may not be possible"
The attack was on his misrepresentation of himself and not on his actual bias.
As for Clocko:
(This was the second time he asked- Justice was the first reply)Quote:
Clocker:
"I believe that the "issues at hand" as defined by the title of this topic are "Palestine or Israel".
I am pro-Israel.
You? "
--------------------
evilbagpuss Posted: 18 June 2003 - 15:27
I am pro-people."
So Clocker, whether you agree with him or not, came out into the open whilst EBP remained crouched in the bushes. How can you have a frank discussion if you opponent is rustling about in the bushes and you can't see him? Clocker stated his position, EBP concealed his.
As for the current posts, I was merely relaying the other side of the coin to the forum. EBP claims that J2 was being malicious and deceptive, I wanted to show that his intention was to be neither, he made a mistake.
The Israel/Palestine issue has been debated on 2 threads for enough pages to indicate that additional discussion will not bring closure to this issue. These threads and their lack of resolution sadly parallel reality. But that issue has no bearing on this recent exchange.
As for defending my countrymen, are you not from the UK (although living in Australia currently) just like EBP? Could you be doing the same? Or are we to find that people of similar upbringing hold similar viewpoints?
PS: I notice that you have joined ShockandAwe in saluting Pink Floyd. I always knew you two were tight friends!
5) Pro people.Quote:
1) Are you pro-palestinean
2) Are you pro-Israeli
3) Are you simply antisemitic (meaning that you could care less about Palestine, you just want to bad things to come to the Jews).
4) Do you have anger toward American foreign policy, making you more anti-Israel rather than truly pro-palestinean. You pretend you are pro-palestinean to hide your true agenda.
Sorry hobbes, I have to side with the Pro People lobby.
There are bastards on both sides, and the people are the ones that get hit....again, on both sides.
To get a terrorist, they kill "people" that have nothing to do with the crime....in this case the Israeli government/army are the bad guys....sorry, but they are.
Likewise, when a terrorist kills a bus load of kids....its the organisation that sent him that are the bad guys.
Notice, in both cases....the people are the victims.
At no time have i seen EBP say he supports terrorism, he has merely stated that he understands why there is and sympathizes with the palestinians........as do I.
At other times he has sympathised with Israeli casualties...as have I.
At most he has said that the Israeli attrociaties are the greater, and yet again I agree with him.....on the 2 BASIC values whereby you can say they are greater.
1/ There are a lot more Pallestinian casualties (people) than Israeli (people)
2/ Israeli's are a nation...and as such should be following International Law, supported by the miliary aid of what, supposedly, is the "Home of Liberty", amongst others. The Pallestinian Terrorists are desperate Individuals, lead by a criminal organisation. ie They have no expectation for civilized behaviour from the international community, which doesnt make it right, but does make the Israeli actions worse... imho.
Bah nevermind.... will just cause more annoying insults and pointless arguements.
Delete please.
5) Pro people.Quote:
1) Are you pro-palestinean
2) Are you pro-Israeli
3) Are you simply antisemitic (meaning that you could care less about Palestine, you just want to bad things to come to the Jews).
4) Do you have anger toward American foreign policy, making you more anti-Israel rather than truly pro-palestinean. You pretend you are pro-palestinean to hide your true agenda.
Sorry hobbes, I have to side with the Pro People lobby.
Should have been on my list, mea culpa.
Well, EBP certainly is not pro-people and his hatred bares this out. Words are sometimes just that.
There are bastards on both sides, and the people are the ones that get hit....again, on both sides.
I have said this over and over. I implored him that the street does travel both ways. He refused to budge.
I have never tried to justify that Israel is "right" and Palestine "wrong", I have just suggested that it a two way street and that there are extremists on both sides keeping the civilian population hostage. It is time that both sides got control of their extremists and stopped dying for their insanity.
I have also tried to explain why American policy is pro-Israel, rather than justify it.
I would say that I am far closer to being in the pro-people party than EBP. Honestly, I think both sides are just a bunch of lunatics, killing each other to defend their belief in a loving God. The irony is so bitterly rich.
To get a terrorist, they kill "people" that have nothing to do with the crime....in this case the Israeli government/army are the bad guys....sorry, but they are.
Likewise, when a terrorist kills a bus load of kids....its the organisation that sent him that are the bad guys.
Notice, in both cases....the people are the victims.
I have always unwaveringly agreed with this, as has Clocker. EBP will not admit this.
To be honest, I think Clocker can <span style='color:red'>relate to the Israelis better than the Palestineans, but I do not think that he finds their fight "the right one" and Palestineans in the wrong.
The issue has been discussed to death so I will stop here.</span>
The reason I responded to your thread was to make this point. When you post as YOU do, the cards are on the table and we can discuss issues. Look at how differently people respond to you versus EBP. Why do his exchanges always lead to name calling and anger. Why are those who disagree with him "filled with hatred". These are absurd claims and they undermine any useful discussion. If he were to reform his style, he could use his insights to win people over to or enlighten people of, his perspective, rather than turning people to the defensive by caustictic and personal remarks (I believe I was called a psychopath). How you say something can be more important than what you say.
technical moment
Err, moments. Board went screwy
If the Palestinian terrorists are "desperate individuals" lead by a "criminal organization", then what right do they have trying to bargain their way into statehood?Quote:
Originally posted by Rat Faced@27 September 2003 - 16:54
2/ Israeli's are a nation...and as such should be following International Law, supported by the miliary aid of what, supposedly, is the "Home of Liberty", amongst others. The Pallestinian Terrorists are desperate Individuals, lead by a criminal organisation. ie They have no expectation for civilized behaviour from the international community, which doesnt make it right, but does make the Israeli actions worse... imho.
Why should the US or Israel or any other legitimate state deal with them at all?
It seems to me that there is a strange duality at play here- Israel is condemned for it's actions because it is a "real" country, and the Palestininians are forgiven their transgressions because they are not.
How many times do you prod a tiger with a sharp stick before you realize that the response is disproportionate to the stimulus? How many teenaged suicide bombers does it take before some bright Palestinian says "Gee, you know this tactic isn't really working out too well? Pretty soon the Israeli Apaches are gonna drop another bo..."?
Why have the Palestinians continued to squander their ace in the hole- their role as the underdog?
There don't seem to be any white hats in this arena. I have seen Israeli leaders called criminals and terrorists.
Okay, fair enough.
So are Arafat and his gang.
I think that many of the Muslim countries are using the Palestine/Israel conflict as a convenient pressure release valve. Bleed off and divert dissension in their own countries by diverting it to the Palestinian problem. Allah forbid that these wild-eyed Islamic extremists stay at home and focus their attention on say, the House of Saud. Far better that they travel to Iraq, or Afghanistan or Palestine and sow their wild oats.
On the other side, I think that the Israelis see every suicide bomber not as an individual case of a brainwashed kid, but as the spearhead of a wide ranging and unified attack by all of it's Islamic neighbors. Give an inch in your response and next thing you know, Syria is at the door.
I say, give the Palestinians statehood. I don't even care about the borders. Once they get their country though, they had better clean up their act.
Oh for the love of Allah, God, Jahova and what ever else,
I find your post, clocker, the single most annoying post I have had the mispleasure of reading my entire life of internet usage, so now not only are palestinians terrorists, but dumb ass animals too?
For one your use of muslim extremist is incorrect, by true Islamic terms an extremist is one who practices extreme pioty (spelling?), follows every last Islamic law to the letter and practices precuation in doubted laws, people like Ayetollah Sistani is an extremist by true nature.
Second of all your idea that no matter how the palestinians get treated they will gladly lob there teenagers at you is to be honest disapointing and your defence of a state like israel is rather suspicious...
Israel uses the same tactics as Palestine, if not worse, but israel is the worse of the two "devils" in this case, we all know the mosad has infiltrated Hamas and Islamic Jihad to such an extent that they can tell you where the leader of Hamas is going to eat in two years time :lol:, with the palestinians who have sold out and the mosad agents inside they can easely, and i mean easely strike the supposed terrorist in areas that have almost no civilian popoulus, but no they decide to hit while they sleep in there beds, with there families in packed apartment blocks... they do decide to hit at times where they can cause maximum infrastructure/civilian damage and still pass it off as an "unfortunate" part of the ongoing war against "terrorism"... its what is called scare tactics :P . Why are the Israelis worse?
Well the palestinian suicide bombers dont have a choice to go to a packed military base with lovely Israeli sniper guard towers waiting to give you a warm welcome, and those homely apache helicopters above there heads, so they are forced to use more unpleasant tactics, where as Israel can easely take out there enemies, with complete ease, and cause the most minimal civilian losses. You know the mosad as much as I do, they are so perfect at there job they have been able to get to the most highly guarded Islamic leaders and hit them, one example, Ayetollah Khamini, they put an explosive tape in a meeting of the highest Islamic scholars, he lost his arm in the explosian.... Ayetollah Khamini probably the most highly guarded Islamic scholar.
Second, Hasan Nusrullah, his son was poisened, the son of the leader of the Hizbullah Gorilla movement.
They have shown there ability, especially how they always manage to pinpoint the exact movements of Palestinian "terrorists" while they move in there cars.
Israel is just as guilty, well in my view, are more guilty then the rest, they deserve to be punished for crimes not the palestinians.
Oh and another thing, the Israeli military loves so much to go into Palestinian lands, they barley get shot at... you think it would be hard for Israelis to slip into gaza or westbank at night, go the the places the "terrorists" are and assasinate them with one shot to the head? blah, they have control of the borders not palestine.
I think this applies more to your israeli buddies, then PalestineQuote:
How many times do you prod a tiger with a sharp stick before you realize that the response is disproportionate to the stimulus?
Noname, you either have a very short history of internet usage or a very low annoyance threshold. Where did I call Palestinians "dumb ass animals"?Quote:
Oh for the love of Allah, God, Jahova and what ever else,
I find your post, clocker, the single most annoying post I have had the mispleasure of reading my entire life of internet usage, so now not only are palestinians terrorists, but dumb ass animals too?
Well, they do seem to "lob their teenagers" with depressing regularity, don't you think?Quote:
Second of all your idea that no matter how the palestinians get treated they will gladly lob there teenagers at you is to be honest disapointing and your defence of a state like israel is rather suspicious...
In both of these threads I have consistently stated that I was pro-Israeli so I'm not sure how that would be "suspicious"...
I think that you attribute powers/skills to Israeli intelligence that surpasses James Bond and approaches the supernatural. I'm sure that the Mossad is flattered. I guess, given this belief, you are a part of the "laughing Israeli" brigade then, eh?Quote:
we all know the mosad has infiltrated Hamas and Islamic Jihad to such an extent that they can tell you where the leader of Hamas is going to eat in two years time , with the palestinians who have sold out and the mosad agents inside they can easely, and i mean easely strike the supposed terrorist in areas that have almost no civilian popoulus, but no they decide to hit while they sleep in there beds, with there families in packed apartment blocks... they do decide to hit at times where they can cause maximum infrastructure/civilian damage and still pass it off as an "unfortunate" part of the ongoing war against "terrorism"... its what is called scare tactics . Why are the Israelis worse?
Were the Palestinians as well armed and as organized as the Israelis then I might agree. As it is, I think you misunderstood the metaphor.Quote:
QUOTE
How many times do you prod a tiger with a sharp stick before you realize that the response is disproportionate to the stimulus?
I think this applies more to your israeli buddies, then Palestine
As for misunderstanding the metaphor, I think he may be thinking that an "underdog" is an actual animal.
:) sorry was away from the computer, now lets see.
Now friend clocker, my internet life has been too long :P but anyway first the mosad, believe me when I say my words do not mean to flatter them idiots, but where I have been, people would say my words are an understatement :lol: , there is to much evidence of there works in the middle east, I guess the only way to believe it is to go see it for your self... I would personally suggest Syria.
My animal statement was refering to that charming tiger remark, it seems obvious that a country is pretty different to the response of an animal, Hamas does actually change its strategies depending on the ferocity (spelling?) or lack of, used by the Israeli military, but thats a different, long and encriminating story :lol: .
as for the suspicious remark, i am a very paranoid and conspiracy theory driven person, ahem ahem :) .
I did not misunderstand the metaphor, you say no matter how they get treated they will react the same, and from what I see, no matter what the Palestinians do, Israel acts the same... Araft - "Lets talk peace.", Sharon - "His words is a direct attack on the israeli state, this warrants a full scale incursion into the wastbank and gaza and allows us to destroy whatever annoys our eyes", Hamas - "eeh, we're getting tired of being massacred... how about we let things rest for now"
Sharon - "... Ah forget the speach, Just go and kill them" and so on... (event may have been exagerated by me)
Ah well All's fair in love and war, Israel can kill civilians, so i think palestine should have the same privalage. At the end of the day this will typically end with a huge war, Jews VS Muslims, the plans of the Israeli state is so plane that I dont really need to point it out.
oh and for the mosad thing, how is it possible for those helicopters to know what road there driving down, what room Hamas leaders sleep in, and what people they meet if they werent so deep inside the Hamas ranks? its simple Israel looses 10 civilians per attack, but each attack gives them another 100% support and justification to further into Palestinian lands, and now there beginning to set there eyes on other borders, its simple really. And why would this be so hard to believe? the majority in the Israeli government is Right wing "extremist" jews who dont want peace, by there own words, and would love nothing more then to march straight to the Muslim holy land and raze it to the ground. To them its just simple politics and PR.
Edit: typo