FTN opened the doors!

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Originally Posted by Cabalo

GFT sells their invites too.

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And yet, there are ways to obtain an invite without donating. I'm simply pointing this out. The same applied for ScT; while donating ensured you an invite, the staff always granted good members invites to bring in new blood. It wasn't unheard of that people who never donated were sitting on 10 ScT invites with no intention of giving any of them out.

The same applies to PTN (where I got an invite to use at my discretion just for a post); HDBits (where staff allow respected members to bring friends in, when the open invites was canceled, and continue to do so) etc. However, the problem here stems from the fact that FTN invites are donor exclusive.
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That given; I don't understand what the big deal is. While one may think that helping the tracker out by in-swarm activity and/or forum contribution, basically being a monumental member, should be the judgmental factor on whether invite privileges should bestowed on him/her; it's simply a false belief. Donations help the tracker just as much as any other sort of activity, if not even more. A tracker selling invites is nothing out of the ordinary and it's just what the BT world has come to. Simple as that; deal with it.

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That given; I don't understand what the big deal is. While one may think that helping the tracker out by in-swarm activity and/or forum contribution, basically being a monumental member, should be the judgmental factor on whether invite privileges should bestowed on him/her; it's simply a false belief. Donations help the tracker just as much as any other sort of activity, if not even more. A tracker selling invites is nothing out of the ordinary and it's just what the BT world has come to. Simple as that; deal with it.

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The big deal is that the site is getting ruined.

I blame this on all parties.

Traders: Your the reason this has gotten this bad, as there is almost no legitimate invites being put to use.

FTN: You shouldn't have given invites out to donors only, rather for a site that rare you should had staff go around a recruit (just one idea I came up with).

Legitimate users: Stop referring people that request ftn to gft. That is the poison that the traders thrive off of. Ftn needs legitimate members more than gft does at this point in time. We must adjust to bad decisions trackers make and as a community try to fix them.

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Originally Posted by Tv Controls you

The big deal is that the site is getting ruined.

I blame this on all parties.

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How can you justifiably say that the site is getting ruined? Weren't the invites only given out yesterday? I fail to see how the site could have been ruined in that short space of time.

As has been previously mentioned, what's the harm in giving donors, effectively those who keep the site running financially, an incentive in so far as allowing them to invite someone they should hopefully know to join the tracker/community?

No-one is daft enough to think that it will ONLY be good users who are now able to join FTN, everyone knows there will be traders etc managing to find their way there now, but wasn't that always the case? Admittedly it may be slightly easier for them to do so now, but would I be wrong in thinking that the vast majority of those who do this are simply collecting and will eventually fade away anyway if it doesn't suit them anyway?

The way you seem to be talking just now, it will only be bad users, or traders, or whatever else that joins up... what abut the new members who actually WILL be good for the community/tracker? Why not focus on those? :)

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Originally Posted by Tv Controls you

FTN: You shouldn't have given invites out to donors only, rather for a site that rare you should had staff go around a recruit (just one idea I came up with).

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Non-donors are not the ones putting food on their table. Donors are and they have to keep doing whatever it takes to make them donate.

In most cases the repeat donors that keep a tracker alive do so because they like the place, not because they are expecting perks out of it. In simpler terms, putting more incentives out for donors will only increase the amount of donors not the amount of donations from the current donors.

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Legitimate users: Stop referring people that request ftn to gft. That is the poison that the traders thrive off of. Ftn needs legitimate members more than gft does at this point in time. We must adjust to bad decisions trackers make and as a community try to fix them.

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i agree :)

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Originally Posted by Albo Da Kid

Non-donors are not the ones putting food on their table. Donors are and they have to keep doing whatever it takes to make them donate.

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I strongly disagree, seeders are the ones putting food on the table.
Seeding is the best donation you can ever give to the BT community. I personally only donate when I really like how a tracker is ran.

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Originally Posted by Tv Controls you

I strongly disagree, seeders are the ones putting food on the table.
Seeding is the best donation you can ever give to the BT community. I personally only donate when I really like how a tracker is ran.

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Do you think hosting companies would allow their servers to be used for free as long as the site that was ran from it was well seeded? (legal technicalities aside :lol:)

I fully agree that members seeding torrents and keeping them alive is essential to a site in order for their torrents to stay alive... but don't you think it's more important to actually be able to afford the hardware to run your site first?

I'm the same as you in that I'll only donate if I enjoy how the site is ran, and offers something that little bit different from the countless others that are available, but at the end of the day I think myself that it's the donators who initially keep the site alive for those seeders to even exist and build their ratio's on...

@Burnsy... well explained.. simple logic :D

I was quickly looking over the trade section here and it seems most of the threads with FTN in the topic title are still people looking for FTN. That probably won't change much even with this new invite policy. Legitimate traders that got invites will still look for equal value (meaning high value) or look to get back something impossible for it. Therefore the invites will still be very valuable and hard to obtain for most traders.

Sure there will be a natural surge in trading activity but it will die down gradually as some of the traders get caught and others lose interest. FTN is still a small tracker which makes it easy to see who's coming and going.

To explain Burnsy's message in one line:

A tracker can remain alive with no seeders, but it can't without the donors. :)

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Originally Posted by Burnsy

but don't you think it's more important to actually be able to afford the hardware to run your site first?

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I don't think that is the member's problem.

I donate because I like how a website is ran... Not because I want to make sure the server bill is payed by the end of the month.
You shouldn't create a tracker with the assumption that the bill will be payed in donations every month...

In addition I pay dearly for my internet bill every month, so I find it highly offensive that you regard seeding as a lesser to donors.
Matter of fact if your a seeder, you are a donor. Your using your bandwidth which is money in today's world.

I could use a 56k modem and donate 5 dollars a month and save tons of of money. But I am more concerned about people receiving their files.

who cares if they trade... wah, wah!

Then along those truly insightful and compassionate lines who cares what you think ?

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Originally Posted by ringhunter

To explain Burnsy's message in one line:

A tracker can remain alive with no seeders, but it can't without the donors. :)

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Yep... precisely :lol:

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Originally Posted by Tv Controls you

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Originally Posted by Burnsy

but don't you think it's more important to actually be able to afford the hardware to run your site first?

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I don't think that is the member's problem.

I donate because I like how a website is ran... Not because I want to make sure the server bill is payed by the end of the month.
You shouldn't create a tracker with the assumption that the bill will be payed in donations every month...

In addition I pay dearly for my internet bill every month, so I find it highly offensive that you regard seeding as a lesser to donors.
Matter of fact if your a seeder, you are a donor. Your using your bandwidth which is money in today's world.

I could use a 56k modem and donate 5 dollars a month and save tons of of money. But I am more concerned about people receiving their files.

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I think you may be missing my point a little...

I'm not saying seeders efforts are any lesser in value towards the site than those who donate financially to the running costs, I fully acknowledge seeders are effectively the life blood of the the tracker in so far as they NEED to be there to share files...

The point I was making, as ringhunter so eloquently put it, was that there would be nowhere to seed if the finances weren't in place to afford the hosting.

I understand what you say about not starting a tracker if you can't afford it, and about not having to rely on donations each month, and I fully agree with you, however... as a trackers success grows, and member base becomes bigger etc, then doesn't it make sense that eventually upgrades would be required to cope with increasing demands? Possibly outwith what the Site Owner initially was able to afford... and I think this is where donations become important, hence my belief that there's nothing wrong with offering an additional incentive to those offering money to the running costs :)

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Originally Posted by Tv Controls you

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Originally Posted by Albo Da Kid

Non-donors are not the ones putting food on their table. Donors are and they have to keep doing whatever it takes to make them donate.

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I strongly disagree, seeders are the ones putting food on the table.
Seeding is the best donation you can ever give to the BT community. I personally only donate when I really like how a tracker is ran.

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Naw B. Seeding is what normal users do, it's what you're expected to do if you're using private trackers. Donations are what keep this service going.

you missed my point.

Your sadly mistaken if you believe that its the members job to pay for the server bill.

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Originally Posted by Tv Controls you

you missed my point.

Your sadly mistaken if you believe that its the members job to pay for the server bill.

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I didn't say that and in fact acknowledged it wasn't... I think we'll agree to disagree

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Originally Posted by Burnsy

I understand what you say about not starting a tracker if you can't afford it, and about not having to rely on donations each month, and I fully agree with you

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What part of that states that members should pay for the servers?

I went on to mention that as a site grow and costs increase then it's acceptable to need some donations every now and again and there was nothing wrong with rewarding those willing to help out...

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Originally Posted by Burnsy

as a trackers success grows, and member base becomes bigger etc, then doesn't it make sense that eventually upgrades would be required to cope with increasing demands? Possibly outwith what the Site Owner initially was able to afford... and I think this is where donations become important, hence my belief that there's nothing wrong with offering an additional incentive to those offering money to the running costs :)

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I didn't miss your point at all... and I'm not sadly mistaken...

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Originally Posted by Tv Controls you

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Originally Posted by Burnsy

but don't you think it's more important to actually be able to afford the hardware to run your site first?

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I don't think that is the member's problem.

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If all your interested in is a tracker, then yeah... seed on and do no more... seeding is a requirement... you're not doing anyone any favours by doing what you're supposed to, you'd be disabled if you didn't.

If what you enjoy is the sense of community, then not being able to afford server fees becomes everyone's problem...

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Originally Posted by Tv Controls you

you missed my point.

Your sadly mistaken if you believe that its the members job to pay for the server bill.

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I don't believe it's a user's job, I for one do not donate to trackers very often. That's why I think if anyone should be rewarded, it should be them.

edit: I would probably agree with you go 2 years ago, when I actually cared about invites, and inviting people. If FTN gave me an invite now, I would probably toss it to a RL friend who wouldn't care too much for it. I wouldn't care much for inviting a RL friend either. Inviting people has lost its charm.

About seeding, it's just a matter of leaving it in your client for awhile, which with happen naturally for most users, because your average person doesn't watch/install all their warez the moment they download it. Yeah sure, give everybody invites for what they naturally do. I wouldn't care if FTN did that either, except I actually would, because that would mean >1000 new users which might destroy the no ratio economy that FTN has.

That is exactly where you are wrong.

Seeding is doing a favor, because it helps people retrieve their files.
Just because seeding is expected doesn't devalue it's cost.

*ps truesounds I was talking about burnsy in this post and my last.

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Originally Posted by Tv Controls you

That is exactly where you are wrong.

Seeding is doing a favor, because it helps people retrieve their files.
Just because seeding is expected doesn't devalue it's cost.

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How can I be wrong when I have already acknowledged these exact points in my earlier posts? :blink:

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Originally Posted by Burnsy

I'm not saying seeders efforts are any lesser in value towards the site than those who donate financially to the running costs, I fully acknowledge seeders are effectively the life blood of the the tracker in so far as they NEED to be there to share files

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Are you even reading what I'm posting? :P

My point is... there's nothing wrong with rewarding those who want to donate financially and offer a little extra, remember... they're seeding too from either seedboxes or the same home connection as you with their own ISP charges too...

And your comment about it not being a members problem... well I agree and disagree with you, as stated in my last post...

If all you're after is a tracker then there are thousand's to choose from and it's not your problem if the bills don't get paid...

If you feel as though you belong to the community there, and the tracker is only secondary to why you use the site, then I'm afraid not being able to pay the fee is everybody's problem. Sure it might not be your fault there's no money to pay... but the community's still going to disappear regardless :)

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seeding is a requirement... you're not doing anyone any favours by doing what you're supposed to

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I'll just let your own statement soak in as you don't seem to understand your own words.

You have acknowledged seeding is a favor by stating that it isn't a favor, but rather it is just expected.....

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How can I be wrong when I have already acknowledged these exact points in my earlier posts?

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Awaiting your response in which you misconstrue every single word in your statements to have an alternative meaning.

Just to throw this in: There's a difference between seeding, and seeding. The latter involves being the last seed on a 500-day old torrent. Trackers can only become "amazing" when they have a stellar retention, and a good seeder is one who can provide his bandwidth regardless of the longevity of the torrent's luster.

I have never been a good seeder, I have never had a "Torrent finished: 1 year ago" message, but I do keep a 2-month long average seed time on all my trackers regardless. That's still nothing compared to me trying to grab a torrent from BMTV that was uploaded 3 years ago, and still getting 4 seeds on it. I felt like pointing that out.

A tracker like GFT is great, but it always suffers from retention (whether server crash/stability optimization or not). It's one of my main gripes with it.

That's the difference between seeding, and seeding.

0-day tracker isn't meant for retention though. Vast majority of scene releases are use and throw stuff.

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Originally Posted by chinchi11as

0-day tracker isn't meant for retention though. Vast majority of scene releases are use and throw stuff.

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I perfectly understand that, but you have to admit that it gets annoying not finding content that was only pre'd 6 months prior to you searching.

Look for a certain pattern in all the trackers that are called "the best" in their line of releases. Their oldest torrents are 3+ years old, with seeders still on it. There's no doubt that a proper retention is required of any tracker, even the biggest scene ones like SCC/TL etc.

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Originally Posted by Tv Controls you

I'll just let your own statement soak in as you don't seem to understand your own words.

You have acknowledged seeding is a favor by stating that it isn't a favor, but rather it is just expected.....

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What?! :blink:

I'm afraid we have very different definitions of a favour then. You seem to perceive that by doing simply what your supposed to do, and what everyone else is doing, as you actually doing someone a favour... I'd say that you are simply meeting an expectation, and by the very definition of being a seeder, you are meeting a requirement, are you not?

Going over and above what you were supposed to do... I would call THAT doing someone a favour... however, this convo has totally digressed now from the original point and starting to go off on a complete tangent.

I've not twisted or misconstrued any statement, I've agreed with you on some points, not on others, and have offered explanations as to why my opinions differed... I'm now at the stage where I have no idea what you're on about, and at this time of night I'm not really that fussed about that :lol:

Now twist, turn, rearrange and use those comments in whatever text you want to because at the end of the day your entitled to your opinion, just as I'm entitled to mine... we don't agree, fair enough... shit happens :)

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Originally Posted by Burnsy

What?! :blink:

I'm afraid we have very different definitions of a favour then. You seem to perceive that by doing simply what your supposed to do, and what everyone else is doing, as you actually doing someone a favour... I'd say that you are simply meeting an expectation, and by the very definition of being a seeder, you are meeting a requirement, are you not?

Going over and above what you were supposed to do... I would call THAT doing someone a favour... however, this convo has totally digressed now from the original point and starting to go off on a complete tangent.

I've not twisted or misconstrued any statement, I've agreed with you on some points, not on others, and have offered explanations as to why my opinions differed... I'm now at the stage where I have no idea what you're on about, and at this time of night I'm not really that fussed about that :lol:

Now twist, turn, rearrange and use those comments in whatever text you want to because at the end of the day your entitled to your opinion, just as I'm entitled to mine... we don't agree, fair enough... shit happens :)

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My 2 main points I'm trying to convey to you are:

1) seeding is a form of donation
2) Seeding is a "favor"

Just an example for you:
I have nearly 400 waffles torrents seeding right now in my utorrent. Alot of them only have 1 other seeder, and many have me as the only seeder.
This is a favor, I have nearly a 9.0 ratio on waffles and could easily delete all my torrents. But I care more about people being able to get their music.

That is truly a favor I believe, as I have gone way past the requirements that the tracker requires.
Further more I want absolutely nothing in return for this other than knowing that the other user got his files.

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Originally Posted by Tv Controls you

My 2 main points I'm trying to convey to you are:

1) seeding is a form of donation
2) Seeding is a "favor"

Just an example for you:
I have nearly 400 waffles torrents seeding right now in my utorrent. Alot of them only have 1 other seeder, and many have me as the only seeder.

This is a favor, I have nearly a 9.0 ratio on waffles and could easily delete all my torrents. But I care more about people being able to get their music.

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1) In a roundabout way, you're right, it is and I've acknowledged that without seeders a tracker couldn't run. My point in that respect was that everybody has to seed, donator or not, therefore I considered a donator as someone doing a little bit more than than was required/expected (or whatever turn of phrase you want to use).

That's why I said I didn't see anything wrong with some sort of extra incentive for doing what everyone else was doing and more...

2) I don't agree, sorry. Seeding is following the rules, meeting a requirement set down by the board staff, and if you don't meet them you are generally reprimanded in some way... a warning... download rights removed... warned, or something. Going by your logic, and by seeding what you're required to do, it sounds like you are doing them a favour just by following their rules :unsure:

400 torrents on Waffles? Now that's something impressive... and imho something like that along with an account kept in good standing should be recognised and/or rewarded... whether by userclass or something else, invites or whatever... nice one... but I still think we should agree to disagree on the whole 'favour' issue, coz we're never gonna see eye to eye on it :lol:

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Originally Posted by Burnsy

I still think we should agree to disagree on the whole 'favour' issue, coz we're never gonna see eye to eye on it :lol:

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Simply because you both define "seeding" in a different way.

TV defines it as going the full way, and sharing to the extreme. In that regard, he is truly doing a favor by keeping the torrents alive when nobody else will.

You on the other hand are probably talking about seeding minimum requirements, which you do not see as a favor at all, because they really are not, and are required by just about everyone.

TV goes above and beyond the requirements, which is why he calls it a favor.

That's the way I see it.

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but I still think we should agree to disagree on the whole 'favour' issue, coz we're never gonna see eye to eye on it

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Lol it would appear so, But I'm really trying to get you to agree.
Let me put a more extreme scenario into view....

For my holy communion we had to do 12 hours of community service total. I went around helping the church and elderly people for 12 hours.
It was required, but at the same time was a doing a favor?

Bt world:
Its required to go 24 hours or 1:1 ratio, but is going beyond that a favor?
I believe it is a favor for both.

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Originally Posted by ringhunter

To explain Burnsy's message in one line:

A tracker can remain alive with no seeders, but it can't without the donors. :)

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if we want to go further, no long-time seeders/uploaders means no donors...

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Originally Posted by ringhunter

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Originally Posted by chinchi11as

0-day tracker isn't meant for retention though. Vast majority of scene releases are use and throw stuff.

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I perfectly understand that, but you have to admit that it gets annoying not finding content that was only pre'd 6 months prior to you searching.

Look for a certain pattern in all the trackers that are called "the best" in their line of releases. Their oldest torrents are 3+ years old, with seeders still on it. There's no doubt that a proper retention is required of any tracker, even the biggest scene ones like SCC/TL etc.

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bmost of "the best" torrent tracker in terms of content are those with big userbase. big userbase in private tracker usually implies retention. you have a whole lot of people snatching new torrents. then you have a lot of people snatching old torrents once in a while.

vs. small tracker where max snatch is usually like 400 or so...and seeders on old torrents give up b/c noone leeches (that's what they say at least >.<)



if you want to see old 0-day stuff (in small 0-day tracker) that was pre'ed like 6 months ago use request section (if they have any).

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Originally Posted by cinephilia

if we want to go further, no long-time seeders/uploaders means no donors...

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No donors means no tracker to seed/upload on.

Chicken/egg, pretty much.

If TVcontrolyou is talking strictly dedicated trackers, then I see his point. Seeding a shitload of music torrents is way more helpful than donating a few dollars, or auto-ing all 2010 FLAC/v0 releases on kimsufi's.

On 0day sites, seeding for a long time isn't really that important. If it is any trouble or bother to you, you're probably better off deleting the torrent and saving yourself the grief than letting it idle in your client to be a statistic on the tracker. As long as a torrent gets snatches it will live. When snatches die off, it's not really crucial to 'archive' it. (0day ≠ general)

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Originally Posted by IdolEyes787

Then along those truly insightful and compassionate lines who cares what you think ?

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obviously u!

U isn't a word.If you mean the letter then although I can't really speak for it I think it's safe to assume that it too doesn't give a fuck.

I didn't even see his post. That's how much of a fuck I gave lol.

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Originally Posted by ringhunter

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Originally Posted by cinephilia

if we want to go further, no long-time seeders/uploaders means no donors...

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No donors means no tracker to seed/upload on.

Chicken/egg, pretty much.

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but a tracker needs dedicated members in the first place to make people donate, is that so hard to understand for you?

chicken or egg?

the duck !