The summer 2011 totally legitimate and like official atheist thread, endorsed too

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Originally Posted by mjmacky

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Originally Posted by AbyBeats

Provided such a context, where your reasoning mind finds some logic for being biased. When there is none or when uncertainty plays a major factor, I feel comfortable sitting in the middle.

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There's always a context, that's the point. It can't really be apathy either, for you've already posted.

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No. Don't group all contexts to fall into "left side" and "right side". Maybe that's because of your inability to "not take sides". Just because you can't think so, don't think others can't.

In this context, I can take sides (opinion about my reasoning better than what you have come to reason with about "taking sides"), because my reasoning tells me, doing so makes more sense. Just because I "took side" here doesn't mean I am gonna "take side" on every other context.

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In this context, I can take sides (opinion about my reasoning better than what you have come to reason with about "taking sides"), because my reasoning tells me, doing so makes more sense. Just because I "took side" here doesn't mean I am gonna "take side" on every other context.

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Government speak? You should be working for the local government. You would be worth a fortune to them.:)

Me personally? I just take sides according to the evidence available.

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Originally Posted by bigboab

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In this context, I can take sides (opinion about my reasoning better than what you have come to reason with about "taking sides"), because my reasoning tells me, doing so makes more sense. Just because I "took side" here doesn't mean I am gonna "take side" on every other context.

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Government speak? You should be working for the local government. You would be worth a fortune to them.:)

Me personally? I just take sides according to the evidence available.

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Yea right. As we all know, there are lots of concrete evidence to support either case in this scenario. Which side are you on again? :)

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Originally Posted by AbyBeats

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Originally Posted by bigboab

Government speak? You should be working for the local government. You would be worth a fortune to them.:)

Me personally? I just take sides according to the evidence available.

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Yea right. As we all know, there are lots of concrete evidence to support either case in this scenario. Which side are you on again? :)

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I don't see any concrete evidence to support the existence of a God. Before anyone goes on about the Bible remember that all 'evidence' against religion was burnt, including humans who disagreed.

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Originally Posted by bigboab

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Originally Posted by AbyBeats

Yea right. As we all know, there are lots of concrete evidence to support either case in this scenario. Which side are you on again? :)

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I don't see any concrete evidence to support the existence of a God. Before anyone goes on about the Bible remember that all 'evidence' against religion was burnt, including humans who disagreed.

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Atheist then. A very wise decision indeed.

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Originally Posted by AbyBeats

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Originally Posted by bigboab

I don't see any concrete evidence to support the existence of a God. Before anyone goes on about the Bible remember that all 'evidence' against religion was burnt, including humans who disagreed.

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Atheist then. A very wise decision indeed.

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...but only sinners (who were doomed to an eternity of Hellfire, anyway) were burned. Think of it as, "starting their futures early". Who doesn't appreciate a bit of help in getting started. :idunno: As for the other stuff... do we really need mis-guided individuals spreading incorrect info (and even damnable lies)? I think not. Just look at the internets and all the crap that gets posted.

So, really, a few hell-bent miscreants were expelled early, and their misinformation was disposed of properly. And that was hundreds of years ago. Move on, please. Geesh.

People who have strong opinions based on uncertain/unverified facts is like ...

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Originally Posted by AbyBeats

People who have strong opinions based on uncertain/unverified facts is like ...

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I don't know if posting bullshit or managing to post the virtual equivalent of nothing is worse. But it feels like the thread is dying. Don't know if it was because of your theological bias or you just want to troll this thread, but thanks anyways. If you plan to post something interesting and/or meaningful, I'll pay it some mind; otherwise I think the misinformation has been addressed (not like it matters).

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Originally Posted by megabyteme

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Originally Posted by AbyBeats

Atheist then. A very wise decision indeed.

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...but only sinners (who were doomed to an eternity of Hellfire, anyway) were burned. Think of it as, "starting their futures early". Who doesn't appreciate a bit of help in getting started. :idunno: As for the other stuff... do we really need mis-guided individuals spreading incorrect info (and even damnable lies)? I think not. Just look at the internets and all the crap that gets posted.

So, really, a few hell-bent miscreants were expelled early, and their misinformation was disposed of properly. And that was hundreds of years ago. Move on, please. Geesh.

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I don't see what would have stopped all those victims from getting saved at a later time in life. It sounds like those religious nuts ran things like american health insurance policies. Convert to christianity now... sorry, we do not cover pre-existing conditions.

Also: Sorry, you didn't join during our enrollment period.

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Originally Posted by mjmacky

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Originally Posted by AbyBeats

People who have strong opinions based on uncertain/unverified facts is like ...

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I don't know if posting bullshit or managing to post the virtual equivalent of nothing is worse. But it feels like the thread is dying. Don't know if it was because of your theological bias or you just want to troll this thread, but thanks anyways. If you plan to post something interesting and/or meaningful, I'll pay it some mind; otherwise I think the misinformation has been addressed (not like it matters).

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Lets all agree with mjmacky, and philosophically establish the non-existence of God without any proof of it because;

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Originally Posted by mjmacky

At best, I feel it only deserves a philosophical debate

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So says the scientist mjmacky :lol:

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Originally Posted by mjmacky

I don't see what would have stopped all those victims from getting saved at a later time in life. It sounds like those religious nuts ran things like american health insurance policies. Convert to christianity now... sorry, we do not cover pre-existing conditions.

Also: Sorry, you didn't join during our enrollment period.

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Step 1: Collect A LOT of souls/insurance premiums.
Step 2: ???
Step 3: BIG, BIG PROFIT!!!

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Originally Posted by mjmacky

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Originally Posted by AbyBeats

People who have strong opinions based on uncertain/unverified facts is like ...

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I don't know if posting bullshit or managing to post the virtual equivalent of nothing is worse.

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I am sorry if my posts seems like bullshit; but I was truly trying to show how stupid your effort was and the basis of structuring the whole argument.

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Originally Posted by mjmacky

But it feels like the thread is dying. Don't know if it was because of your theological bias or you just want to troll this thread,

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1. If you had properly read and followed my comments, you would have known, that I am neither a theologists or an atheist; which was pretty apparent from the very first post I made. Dont get frustrated mjmacky, I am sure there are people who would follow you just on the basis of philosophy.

2. I would love to quote Einstein here; "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." People have been beating this dead horse since the inception of humanity. Try something different, rather than going the same path and expecting different results.

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Originally Posted by mjmacky

but thanks anyways. If you plan to post something interesting and/or meaningful, I'll pay it some mind; otherwise I think the misinformation has been addressed (not like it matters).

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I once heard the same similar thing from a creationists in another forum I used to hang out, and he too thought of soo highly of himself. Don't you find it really intriguing?

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Originally Posted by AbyBeats

1. If you had properly read and followed my comments, you would have known, that I am neither a theologists or an atheist; which was pretty apparent from the very first post I made. Dont get frustrated mjmacky, I am sure there are people who would follow you just on the basis of philosophy.

2. I would love to quote Einstein here; "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." People have been beating this dead horse since the inception of humanity. Try something different, rather than going the same path and expecting different results.

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Aby, had you been reading, and following along, you would have seen that your whole stance has already been discussed. Do we really need an emo standing on the side mocking our discussion? I think not.

NO conversation benefits from your "shoot everything down" stance. It's a conversation killer.

Bob: I'm going to see [movie x] tonight. I've heard it's great. Want to come, Sally?

Sally: [Movie x] sounds interesting. Let me see if Aby wants to join us...

Aby: Movies are pointless. They are expensive, the chairs are uncomfortable, the stories always miss the point of the original book. And I inevitably swit where someone has spilled popcorn, and their drink on the floor.

Sally: :mellow:

Bob: :mellow:

*Sally and Bob go to the movie, and have a good time.

Aby: :emo:

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Originally Posted by megabyteme

As for the idea that topics have been beaten to death, I disagree. While many of us have had these discussions here, and IRL, the argument could be taken to nearly any topic- and those who have spent more than a decade studying after high school would have little reason to discuss what they have learned. With a forum (a place to discuss topics of interest), it is valuable to open these things up, and see where they go.

That said, there also seems to be a growing anti-religion movement online. It appears to me popular to bash religion/God while online (not necessarily being done by the OP here, BTW).

I am personally moving in the direction of finding a place for religion, and possibly even Jesus, in my life. As someone who has now had the opportunity to attend two fantastic private universities, I have experienced what it means to be surrounded by people who live their lives in accordance to (many) of the teachings of JC. I have also studied a fair amount of philosophy (one class shy of a minor), I found contradictions, and failings in every one -with the exception of JC. You subtract the Son of God aspects out, and His teachings are quite exceptional.

So, for me, I see value in revisiting these "old" discussions as a way to reassess my life, and whether or not I am willing to "drink the kool-aid". The idea of a life story, and the growing thoughts that mine is coming together (with tragedies, and successes) almost like a pre-written novel, have made me consider that there is not only more than I can see, but that there may be something influencing my life that is beyond my understanding.

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Bob: I'm going to see [movie x] tonight. I've heard it's great. Want to come, Sally?

Sally: [Movie x] sounds interesting. Let me see if Aby wants to join us...

Aby: Whats the movie about?

BoB: C'mon the regular drama and sex, and the same ole story, but I hear its better than Avatar. Lots of GFX and Action.

Aby: Such Movies are pointless, nothing new to the table. I prefer movies which intrigues me; not the same plot with different actors. Whats the point in wasting money?

Sally: :mellow:

Bob: :mellow:

*Sally and Bob go to the movie, and have a good time while sleeping.

Aby: Off to download some really good movies and documentaries.

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Originally Posted by megabyteme

NO conversation benefits from your "shoot everything down" stance. It's a conversation killer.

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Expressing opinions, expressing opinions :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by mjmacky

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Originally Posted by AbyBeats

People who have strong opinions based on uncertain/unverified facts is like ...

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I don't know if posting bullshit or managing to post the virtual equivalent of nothing is worse. But it feels like the thread is dying.

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Yea right. This thread was dead after the initial steam; like all such threads, which die out soon after a short burst (except in respective extreme forums of course) in activity. One person's posts never diminishes other people's interest in debating. When the thread hits a wall of "no interest" or "lack of proper refuting", its then a thread dies out. But, I understand. Your frustration is apparent. I'll stop right here; lets see where this threads goes.

Aby, in 4 pages, you've added nothing to the thread, and managed to distract from every point that was made. I typically like tolerate you, but you are being an irritating ass. Go spam elsewhere, this section is supposed to be for serious discussion. It is clear you have no interest in the thread, and only wish to distract those who are in it.

Read the section rules, and then go back to BT.

Sorry. Open thread. Anyone can put their opinions in. If the moderator feels like I am spamming, they will do their duty of cleaning up un-wanted posts. Don't play a mini-mod. To me, you two are the only ones hanging on by a thread along the lines of philosophical BS; and instead of properly refuting my points and "quieting" me down with reason, you are the ones who are going on the offensive. You should read the section rules and stop posting comments like the above in the drawing room, before advocating anything at all. This is not the lounge you know where you belong; for mindless spam.

"On the fence". Wow, valuable opinion/position.

People are still being killed because of religion. There are other religions in the world who still carry out these 'early dispatches'). I will move on when those cease.

I was hoping people would see the humorous tone to that post. Back a few pages, I made a serious comment regarding "The Church" being manipulative, and power-hungry. There's no real reason why one needs to attend church, or follow along with its politics in order to believe in God any more than one needs a library card to receive an education. However, many benefit from the social aspects offered by being a member of such a group.

I am not looking for that as much as I am trying to come to terms with my own life. It is undeniable that there is a storyline to it. I am not so certain stories come together as I have experienced based entirely on random, unrelated events. There are too many elements that have appeared (good and bad) that when examined, look more like plot devices than random occurrences, or entropy. I am trying to honestly evaluate what I have experienced, and determine whether, or not, there may be more than I can fully understand.

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Originally Posted by AbyBeats

and instead of properly refuting my points and "quieting" me down with reason

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Make a point that would warrant analysis and doesn't already defeat itself nor prequels earlier discussion. If I have a differing opinion, I will refute it. You haven't really said anything other than "I have no interest in this" and "refute my point", the latter of which was the only thing worth responding to.

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Originally Posted by AbyBeats

One person's posts never diminishes other people's interest in debating

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Sure it can. However I suspected it would be Oleg's, turns out it was yours.

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Originally Posted by bigboab

People are still being killed because of religion. There are other religions in the world who still carry out these 'early dispatches'). I will move on when those cease.

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The institutional and personal belief systems both play a role in these kinds of tragedies. It's what I think pushes the effects in the net negative area (though difficult if not impossible to weigh them in any quantifiable form). It's what pushes me in the direction of antitheism, and I think my apathy and laziness are some of many factors of why I don't do anything about it (aside from running my mouth at my convenience, e.g. on a forum).

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Originally Posted by megabyteme

There are too many elements that have appeared (good and bad) that when examined, look more like plot devices than random occurrences, or entropy. I am trying to honestly evaluate what I have experienced, and determine whether, or not, there may be more than I can fully understand.

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Sounds like you're in a search for commonalities, without knowing whether they even exist. Don't forget to take a step back and share your story with those you know, sometimes it just takes an alternate perspective to start working towards some clarity. You'll eventually collect those anyway and your hindsight will prove to have a better focus.

I used to think the universe (in its entirety) worked against me when I was young and believed in supernatural forces. When I look back on it now, it was impossible for me to have determined why everything seemed that way. In the end though, it seems that all coincidences share some link, almost like they're complementary.

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Originally Posted by mjmacky

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Originally Posted by megabyteme

There are too many elements that have appeared (good and bad) that when examined, look more like plot devices than random occurrences, or entropy. I am trying to honestly evaluate what I have experienced, and determine whether, or not, there may be more than I can fully understand.

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Sounds like you're in a search for commonalities, without knowing whether they even exist. Don't forget to take a step back and share your story with those you know, sometimes it just takes an alternate perspective to start working towards some clarity. You'll eventually collect those anyway and your hindsight will prove to have a better focus.

I used to think the universe (in its entirety) worked against me when I was young and believed in supernatural forces. When I look back on it now, it was impossible for me to have determined why everything seemed that way. In the end though, it seems that all coincidences share some link, almost like they're complementary.

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Two cliches seem appropriate to this discussion:
-Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar
-Shit happens

Both the above are basically populist expressions of Occam's Razor, which states that the simplest explanation that covers circumstances is usually correct.
Examine your past through this perspective and see if supernatural explanations are still required.

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Originally Posted by clocker

the simplest explanation that covers circumstances is usually correct.
Examine your past through this perspective and see if supernatural explanations are still required.

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Who's a what's a now? I feel a disconnect between what I said and what it appears you interpreted. The point I was making was this, supernatural explanations do not hold weight in hindsight even though they felt like the obvious reason at the time. I was young, so it was a combination of not understanding the environment around me in addition to information being withheld from me as a child. When I revisit those memories, it's a lot more clear and the supernatural argument holds no merit, and even though the factors were mostly coincidental, they all were made more likely by consequence of poverty, race, egotistical people, the law, etc. I know I describe it very vaguely, but I don't like to reveal too much about my personal history.

I think much of my experience and maturation reflects society's movement towards atheism. As we advance our knowledge scientifically and hone our philosophical perspectives, the incentives to believe in the supernatural fade over time. Even without that historical perspective of trending, if you look at 1000 bright minds vs 1000 dull minds at any point in time, the group that will have the higher percentage of atheistic adoption will be the brighter minds. So the case I make is this, if deities were these superior beings, why would those who reside closer to their intellect have a tendency to disavow the notion of their existence? I doubt that a significant cause of that can be attributed to narcissism.

Throughout history, man has understood that the most effective way to convince others to adopt your opinions/beliefs is NOT to enlighten them using reasoning, but to snuff dissenting theories into silence. This is part of why so many books were burned and people were killed in the past. If your argument gains followers by suppression of knowledge, it's hardly a reasonable argument. It's becoming more difficult to hide information these days, and I believe that is to humanity's benefit. We have entered the age of information, and the primary hindrances are not book burning, but internet censorship by firewalls and shutdowns.

@clocker I seemed to have veered from my the intent of my original reply, but I was inspired to bash out this narrative. So don't take it all as a direct response to you.

The disconnect is because I was primarily responding to megabyteme.

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Originally Posted by clocker

The disconnect is because I was primarily responding to megabyteme.

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Aha, makes sense

Hey, why is a response to me always a "disconnect"? :angry:



Just kidding, but I don't have time, currently, to discuss your points. Thanks guys!

*EDIT*

Actually didn't want to be productive, anyway...

I suppose it could be said that I am simply willing to explore the dialectic at this point in my life. I grew up without religion, and was very much an admitted atheist before it became cool to be so online. Actually, this was before online existed.

Do I need to find mystical explanations? No. Have the vast number of people I respect (many who have earned their Master's, or PhD's) had inclinations towards, or strong beliefs in God? Yes. Do these individuals lead healthy, happy lives? TBH, I've seen enough dysfunction to last me several lives, so my sample would be VASTLY skewed here- I do not have interest in the downtrodden, or unhappy, anymore.

I do not need to pray for anything except the health and happiness of my family and friends. Any god coming to the party now has a relatively easy job in "helping" us maintain that.

As for explaining events of my life... I am all for simple. Simple is great. However, how can I look for something that is greater than myself, perhaps outside my ability to comprehend, if I remain focused on "simple"?

All I am doing is opening up the realm of possibility for something decidedly good.

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Originally Posted by megabyteme

Hey, why is a response to me always a "disconnect"? :angry:

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Obvious because your comments are always irrelevant

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Originally Posted by megabyteme

Just kidding

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Me too

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Originally Posted by megabyteme

and was very much an admitted atheist before it became cool to be so online

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Is this official now? I've been waiting to be considered cool.

Actually, since we can morph ourselves at will and hide behind any personality we wish, online reputation doesn't carry too much weight for me. I hardly think anything of what people think of me in physical life, let alone online. Anyways, it's still received as a dick move to make atheistic comments in our physical lives, at least where I live. For instance, if someone asks if you will pray for them or something, the response "Why? God doesn't exist," is met with defensive hostility. English atheists don't have much to say as a replacement for "god bless you" when someone sneezes or such, so I have to resort to another language (if I say anything at all) since "excuse you" and "shut the fuck up" don't seem appropriate (well most of the time).

So what I'm getting at is that many atheists are surrounded by family, friends, coworkers, bosses, etc. that will be offended by your views, and the internet seems to be the safest place to open up your thoughts without alienating yourself. I am fortunate to not have to worry about that anymore in reality, as I've already alienated almost all of the serious theists I knew. I seem to be in the process of alienating some more, so I am apparently lacking some kind of outlet.

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Originally Posted by megabyteme

As for explaining events of my life... I am all for simple. Simple is great. However, how can I look for something that is greater than myself, perhaps outside my ability to comprehend, if I remain focused on "simple"?

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Why do you seek "something that is greater than myself"?
If you accept the Christian tenet that man was created in God's image, then aren't you the greatest thing ever?
If you doubt your ability to comprehend, isn't "simple" the only approach left?

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Originally Posted by mjmacky

Me too

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Originally Posted by megabyteme

and was very much an admitted atheist before it became cool to be so online

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Is this official now? I've been waiting to be considered cool.

Actually, since we can morph ourselves at will and hide behind any personality we wish, online reputation doesn't carry too much weight for me. I hardly think anything [snip*], so I am apparently lacking some kind of outlet.

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I do believe there are quite a few forums where it is quite popular to be atheist, as either an act of rebellion, or as an outlet.

*Couldn't resist such a convenient, and fun edit point. :D


I will try to address both your, and clocker's points by saying that I do not believe anyone should be alienated by others (although it TRULY does happen) for moving from one position to another. My core inklings tend to be with the two of you. I am not much of a fairy tale/mystics believer, nor simpleton. However, I can no longer dismiss the beliefs of those who believe in God/gods as being feeble minded, weak, or suckered.

It quite simply may be, as Idol mentioned, that God is an idea. If I come to that conclusion, then I will be happy to introduce my children to that one- one that may give them comfort and courage, than one that makes them feel alone, and may serve to isolate them from others.

So em ... What can we take from this thread? :shifty: ( Did you guys miss me? :naughty: )

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Originally Posted by AbyBeats

So em ... What can we take from this thread? :shifty: ( Did you guys miss me? :naughty: )

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1. God isn't real
2. Praying is silly
3. Atheism isn't a dogma
4. If you try, you could become a member of tTC.

Edit:
Also the summer is over, you must take up your issues with the official fall 2011 atheist thread. However, due to short supply, you'll have to supply your own horse.

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Originally Posted by AbyBeats

So em ... What can we take from this thread? :shifty: ( Did you guys miss me? :naughty: )

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I took your absence as a true sign of divine intervention, as my prayers had been answered.

Now that you have returned, I feel the sacrifice of my neighbor's cat was in vain still worth the chance.

:fst:

per one of the discussion points... the 4th dimension:

Attachment 87923

Attachment 104309

idfk. We've had the occasional nubbin teen come along and tell the entire drawering room why there is no God, via the gift of half-arsed reasoning, and strawmen. It's prolly one of them.

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Originally Posted by Snee

idfk. We've had the occasional nubbin teen come along and tell the entire drawering room why there is no God, via the gift of half-arsed reasoning, and strawmen. It's prolly one of them.

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Are said people currently unsexed virgins?