Israeli Ambassador

Of course the demolitions are fair...

extract:

Quote:

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On Wednesday, December 10, having already demolished two houses in Beit Hanina, the Ministry of Interior sent its bulldozers and jackhammers to demolish another four houses in Jabal Mukaber, Silwan and Ras el-Amud. Getting word from Palestinian residents that the bulldozers were on the way, ICAHD members Jeff Halper and Meir Margalit rushed to the scene, where they attempted to stop the demolitions by sitting in front of the bulldozers. At the same time they contacted senior officials in the Ministry, because the director the Ministry's demolition activities, Zvi Schneider, has a reputation of demolishing houses with unofficial or partial orders, thereby denying the residents the right to appeal to the court. (ICAHD is a party in a court case currently being brought against Schneider.) Sure enough, the family's lawyer had obtained a court order that morning forbidding the demolition. Despite orders from his superiors, Schneider refused to show us the demolition order, or to stop the demolition. Only when the entire house was almost totally destroyed did Schneider finally accede to Ministry orders to stop the demolition. The home of Adnan Shahin, his wife and their six children, home for the past four years, is almost a complete loss. The families now live in a tent in the Jerusalem winter. Halper and Margalit were arrested; charges are still pending.

Schneider and the Ministry's crews then went on to demolish another four homes.

---

l think people like venom\putty are to be pitied. They have obviously been brainwashed by their government and other zionist organisations. Just leave them alone. They are not the answer, they are the cause. We should choose to ignore them.


<_<

yes, we have been severely brainwashed by google, CNN and other credible sources..

a little tip: no one would love to harm Israel more than the Israeli media and that&#39;s a fact. one of the most anti Israeli media is Israel&#39;s. there are heavy anti government bodies in the media who always try and discredit the government, it&#39;s actions etc. if there were PROOF of the bullshit spread in this thread, the Israeli media was the first place you&#39;d find it, so I doubt even someone who only listened to the Israeli media would be brainwashed. censored Israeli media ROFL :lol: and hearing that from a BBC viewer, that&#39;s a killer :lol:

but of course, the Arab propaganda you have been listening to is the proper source

1234 - addressing your entire post, that has reached a level of ridiculousness beyond the scope i can handle, is moot. let my just correct your most blatant logical errors that i saw at a first glance - I said that at the current state, Arab armies are going to have a problem defeating Israel.. if we gave up our territories (we were the ones who always had a settlement here and the Arabs were the nomads you tool, Arab immigrates only came here after the Zionists started developing the country in the late 19th century) the situation would change and regardless of win or lose, a war would take a bigger toll on Israel .. FFS such simple logic escapes you

and enough with the first strike nuke bullshit and your conspiracy theories.. Israel was facing total destruction so it "deployed" the weapons to intimidate the Arabs and buy some time.. Israel didn&#39;t need to blackmail the US because they were already helping, i mean your lies don&#39;t even make any sense, what&#39;s up with that? and Israel has never even admitted to having nukes, much less state they&#39;d use it as first strike :frusty: ans it&#39;s funny how you know what Dayan wanted to do, really.. you must be a great telepath. BTW even if Israel used the nukes at that time.. it was only after the Egyptians and Syrians were well in the midst of their combined attack (that went pretty well and was close to success, success meaning destroying Israel).. so how would that be pre-emptive, genius?

your country has never armed the weapons, well no shit sherlock. when your country is invaded in multiple fronts and you face total annihilation, we&#39;ll chat again. lol i just noticed you said you&#39;d never consider using nukes even at the face of total destruction. why do you have them then? shouldn&#39;t you first amend he horrors of your country (by your point of view) that is disarm the UK of nukes (I mean you&#39;d NEVER use them right? ) before you go off about others? and allow me to laugh in your face and state the fact that your government and therefore the vast majority of the UK population does consider using nukes, otherwise you wouldn&#39;t have them. and regarding "the UN would never let Israel lose etc" that&#39;s the biggest joke Ive ever heard, we&#39;ve seen the UN and it&#39;s troops (who allowed the kidnapping of 3 of our soldiers in front of their eyes and then withheld information from us). now the US is a completely different story, but the day you are willing to put your existence in the hands of another country, friendly as it is (and there is no bigger friend to Israel than the US, like I said we owe them the world), like i said we&#39;ll chat again

regarding bombing of Dublin, well obviously no. you haven&#39;t been listening to what Ive been saying and just repeating yourself. maybe if you read again, you&#39;d understand

what are these other mysterious wars you mention? there were 5 wars, all started by the Arabs, please educate me otherwise if I&#39;m wrong (with links preferably). so we have tried to destroy Lebanon several times? that&#39;s lies, i mean news to me.. just keep in mind that Israel has NEVER been on the offensive initially and always retaliated for it&#39;s own safety. anything beyond that is complete bull

and how would the Palestinians launch a war? :frusty: god you&#39;re impossible. perhaps if you understood THERE&#39;S NO SUCH THING AS THE PALESTINIAN ENTITY, they never had a country and they have always been refugees and immigrants from different of Arab states, you&#39;d understand why they could not have launched a war. what they have done, however, is run from the land after being promised by their Arab friends to get the land after the war was over and Israel destroyed. and so far Israel has been treating them the best, far better than Lebanon and and Egypt who butchered them by the tens of thousands. a nice little tidbit about the PLO - the only purpose of it&#39;s existence, as written in it&#39;s official decleration, is to add another front (political) to the war upon israel in the ultimate purpose of all arab states to destroy it. a little quote:

Quote:

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The late Faisal Husseini, Arafat&#39;s Jerusalem representative, a man who was cultured, sophisticated and considered the most moderate of all the Palestinians, shortly before his death on May 31, 2001, expressed his true feelings in an interview with the popular Egyptian newspaper el Arav. Husseini said: "We must distinguish the strategies and long-term goals from the political-phased goals which we are compelled to accept due to international pressures." But the "ultimate goal is the liberation of all of historical Palestine." Explicitly he said: "Oslo has to be viewed as a Trojan Horse."

He even added and clarified that it is the obligation of all the Palestinian forces and factions to see the Oslo Accords as "temporary" steps, as "gradual" goals, because in this way, "We are setting an ambush for the Israelis and cheating them." He also differentiated between "strategic," long-term, "higher" goals, and "political" short-term goals dependent on "the current international establishment, balance of power" etc.

All of historical Palestine&#33; Does not this include all of Israel and all of Jordan?

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again, feel free to google it, the facts remains true

Israel never offered the Palestinians a country? besides what putty said, what about camp David where Barak offered 98% of the so called "territories" to Arafat and he declined ?

and regarding the "occupation" - like putty said, Israel has immediately offered the entire liberated land to Egypt (Gaza strip) and to Jordan (Judea and Samaria) after the occupation who both declined (they didn&#39;t want the Palestinians, they knew just how great the Palestinians were) so please shut up about that

Palestinian tanks ?&#33;?&#33; what are you talking about ?? can your logic be that bad or was that some sort of joke? :(

I&#39;m talking about Syrian and Egyptian tanks that&#39;d go through the "Palestinian" land without any resistance. and prey tell, what would you have us do if the nice little Palestinian country were to start arming itself with tanks, airplanes and missiles ? it&#39;s obvious a Palestinian country would be a terror country, possibly owned by Syria like Lebanon, do we want them to have the strategical advantage
as well ? well obviously you do, forget it

FACT - Israeli soldiers are 18 and above

I have actually addressed the so called human shield civilian bombing etc issues , and your failure to accept facts stands still. putty addressed the legal issues, again, reality -1, you - 0

"Insulting gentiles"? oh, i insult gentiles and non-gentiles alike :lol: trust me, if you knew Hebrew I&#39;d point you to an Israeli political board where I insult Jews far, far worse over the same subjects :lol:

first lefty says I accuse him of being anti-semitic which is a complete fabrication, and now you say i disagree with you and supposedly insult you because you are a "gentile" by your wording. well, like putty said, the only side that has brought up religion and ethnicity is yours.. I prefer sticking to the facts

lastly, i noticed you brought up king david as a terrorist act.. well i could write a whole different post about that but the short story was that A) only the northern section which was a MILITARY section was targeted, like all targets of the israeli liberation groups, and even so they were prosecuted by the jews themselves who gave them up to the british TO BE EXECUTED B ) jews worked at that building as well so it&#39;s stupid to say they wanted to kill civilians C) they both sent a letter and called a few times to tell them to evacuate the building and there was a bomb but the arrogant soldiers disregarded them

I only pray I can resist the urge and ignore your next posts, your true nature is only becoming more and more apparent

@Rat faced - and we demolish houses for... fun? shits and giggles? specific houses are demolished so they would not serve as terrorist outposts. have you heard of the case where a Palestinian approached the IDF and asked them to demolish his house because it was frequently used by terrorists?

And so the bullshit continues ..... on and on and on and on ....

Most of the world disagrees with you. Most of this forum disagrees with you. Common sense and history disagree with you. But you carry on, people like you do the Palestinian cause a huge favour. Your bullshit is so transparent it really needs no rebuttal. You&#39;ll lose, evil always loses in the end. And they don&#39;t come much more evil than Israel&#33;


<_<

Quote:

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Originally posted by Billy_Dean@4 February 2004 - 10:28
And so the bullshit continues&nbsp; .....&nbsp; on and on and on and on ....

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That much, at least, is true.

I feel it more prudent to merely forego further pronouncements on the question, although I think stating that one opinion or allegiance holds sway as majority would be a bit difficult to prove, and in any case irrelevant; we all celebrate the freedom to hold our own opinions, yes?

I have no doubt of where you, Billy, or leftism, 1234, venom or putty stand on the issue.

I have made my views known in other threads.

I think the one certainty is that we shall never agree; the view may, in some cases, widen, but the bottom line doesn&#39;t change a whit, does it? ;)

Quote:

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Originally posted by Billy_Dean@4 February 2004 - 15:28
You&#39;ll lose, evil always loses in the end. And they don&#39;t come much more evil than Israel&#33;


<_<

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:lol:

Israel evil eh? and what goodly country might you be hailing from ? :lol:

Quote:

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Originally posted by venom_il@4 February 2004 - 12:35


@Rat faced - and we demolish houses for... fun? shits and giggles? specific houses are demolished so they would not serve as terrorist outposts. have you heard of the case where a Palestinian approached the IDF and asked them to demolish his house because it was frequently used by terrorists?

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You obviously never read the article.

In this case it was to build houses for the Jewish Community, and the demolition was continued despite a court order that it should not go ahead.

The guys that tried to stop the demolition were arrested, not the guys going against the court order....



Also, after you "anti-semetic violence" tirade against the UK/Europe.

Have you police started arresting the thugs that attack Christians in Israel yet?

Have the ultra-orthodox jews stopped attacking women that dress "immodestly"?

Jews can leave and return to Israel anytime they want, however a Muslim that doesnt apply for specific permission to return, loses his citizenship...fair?

Just a few things i read in the US State Department site re: Israel (not the Occupied Territories, which Internationally are not recognised as Israel however much you wish they were (even by the USA))



Oh yeh....how can anyone living in a country where you can be arrested for speaking in support "Banned" organisation (a decision taken unilaterally by certain heads of Department, not the legislature as a whole) claim to have a "Free Press"? They are free to criticise, however i believe they have a whole department devoted to censoring anything that touches on "National Security"...something decided by the censors themselves.

Of course they can appeal these decisons (and the good thing is that the censors cant appeal the things that go against them..its not all bad)....however by that time it isnt "News", is it?

Dont get me wrong, this is a general criticism of the media throughout the world..including our own, which are sometimes muzzled for the stupidest reasons; however a declaration of a "Free and unbiased Press" anywhere has to be taken with a pinch of salt.



You want your world rankings for "Press Freedom"?

44th Concerning Israel

146th Concerning the Occupied Territories

Source


We better all get some Finnish Newspapers......anyone got a Finnish Translator? :blink:

true, I haven&#39;t read the article because I know the phenomenon
I don&#39;t know the details of this specific case but i do know your source is some leftist / Arab extremist site and i wouldn&#39;t believe a word in it

and even though generally, demolitions sprout from security reasons, they are still heavily criticized here, just to let you know

thugs that attack Christians? is that some sort of joke? what the hell are you talking about ?? are you insinuating there&#39;s some form of Christian segregation? how ridiculous is that :blink: let alone the fact that the police barely arrests thugs that attack anyone, there&#39;s no such thing as Christian segregation here. i mean with Muslims/Arabs there&#39;s obviously tension and in some cases you could claim segregation but with Christians it&#39;s just a sad joke, it&#39;s unthinkable. I want to see the source

ultra-orthodox - everybody hates them, what&#39;s you point ? do you like ultra Muslims who preach for violence or ultra Christians that claim everyone who doesn&#39;t believe in Jesus is a sinner and will go to hell ?

RE the site u gave, even assuming it&#39;s credible and objective which i somehow doubt, I&#39;d say 44 isn&#39;t that bad, especially for a country in our condition. who the hell was talking about press in the territories? I was talking about Israeli media. the UK is also part of the Iraqi occupation and they&#39;re not doing too hot there.. all US&#39;s fault ? in any case, of course there&#39;s censorship when matters of national security are concerned, what&#39;s so surprising about that...

RE citizenship - I hope I don&#39;t need to remind you under which circumstances this country was established, why it&#39;s called "the land of the Jews" and why it&#39;s important to preserve a Jewish majority resulting inevitably in unfair rules in that regard. however, I&#39;m not familiar with the specific law you mentioned, and I&#39;d like a link to the exact phrasing if you know of one

all and all it&#39;s very easy to criticize Israel, but the important question would be what others would be doing in our stead. would you give up territories without which your country would be extremely vulnerable to a devastating attack? (one that has been commenced 5 times before) would you be more compassionate than us to the Palestinians, who given the slightest break or trust use it to execute terrorist attacks? did you know the vast majority of Palestinians support terrorism and go out to the streets dancing after every terrorist attack (including the 9/11) ?

RE Israeli Muslim Arabs - did you know that EVERY SINGLE terrorist attack was due to the help of an Israeli Muslim Arab ?

It&#39;s a tough situation and with all due respect, we have all seen how the UK behaved when they were here .. executed whoever the hell they wanted without trial (whereas Israel puts the most evil murderers in jail), killed Muslim oppressors and then wrapped pork around their bodies to spite them and generally did whatever suited them, without any regard for any native, either Muslim or Jew. not to mention abuse of the mandate that was given to them just until Israel would be ready to stand on it&#39;s own, which it obviously was

now don&#39;t get me wrong - I fully understand the way the UK behaved when they were here and you would never hear me criticize them - I&#39;m just saying any other country in our position would have acted far worse, and you need only look at the US in Afghanistan and the combined forces in Iraq for proof

perhaps the most blatant example would be
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3386695.stm
(BBC :D )

again, fully support them and I wouldn&#39;t dream of criticizing them, but I do find it odd for them to criticize us

BTW - why the massive interest in Israel? the Russians are doing far worse with the Chechen&#39;s (somehow i think the Russians don&#39;t really need that territory) and so are the Chinese in Tibet. there are other countless examples in the world. we are without a doubt the most humane of all .. and yet, I haven&#39;t seen a single thread in this board (or any other one Ive been to for that matter) discussing other feuds.. why is that ? because criticizing Israel is the easiest, that&#39;s why

Another post without verified facts or sources. Typical&#33; You also comment on a website you haven&#39;t visited because you already "know" what it contains.

Quote:

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would you give up territories without which your country would be extremely vulnerable to a devastating attack?

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You mean like WW1 and WW2 ?

Quote:

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did you know the vast majority of Palestinians support terrorism and go out to the streets dancing after every terrorist attack (including the 9/11) ?

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You asked them did you?

Quote:

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RE Israeli Muslim Arabs - did you know that EVERY SINGLE terrorist attack was due to the help of an Israeli Muslim Arab ?

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Every single one? l wonder how idiotic you could be if you really tried.

l don&#39;t see anyone leaping to your defence here, and l&#39;m not surprised.


<_<

well since it&#39;s basically a European board I&#39;m not too surprised either
I have been to US boards and the situation is quite different

of course ppl are going to leap at me now claiming i called all Europeans anti-semitic, but anyone who thinks that, please read again and consider i only deal with facts and the general opinion in Europe is no secret according to many surveys, one of them the one claiming Israel is the most dangerous country in the world the

"You mean like WW1 and WW2 ?"

:lol:

besides the fact england has about 9 times both territory and population Israel has, it&#39;s surrounded by allies/neutrals with which it has defence arrangements. Israel is surrounded by hostile Arab countries in the midst of an Arab/Muslim sea. and what about the fact that england is far easier to defend than Israel, being an island ?

"You asked them did you?"
yes, we asked them and since they always do what we ask them to, for example stop terrorist attacks, they did it :lol:

"Every single one? l wonder how idiotic you could be if you really tried."
yes, every single one. more than that, there were many Israeli Arabs who actually planned to commit terror attacks within Israel, much like their Palestinian brethren

look for yourself
http://www.google.co.il/search?num=100&hl=...bs+terror&meta=

and you haven&#39;t answered the question - what country are you from ? am i to understand from your reply it&#39;s the UK ?

What was that link all about? You show me a Google page as "proof" of your ramblings?

And what difference does it make what country l&#39;m from?

l worked in a Kibbutz whan l was younger, l couldn&#39;t get out of there quick enough. l know something of the attitude of Israelis, especially settlers. l&#39;ve also lived among Muslims, they want only what&#39;s theirs. And l&#39;m talking about radical Muslims too. If Israel wants peace, withdraw to 1967 borders, as the UN demands. And don&#39;t give me semantics about the wording, read the preamble.


<_<

Quote:

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Originally posted by venom+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (venom)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>true, I haven&#39;t read the article because I know the phenomenon
I don&#39;t know the details of this specific case but i do know your source is some leftist / Arab extremist site and i wouldn&#39;t believe a word in it
[/b]

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hmm, I cant quite decide between this...

http://www.turnonthenews.com/monkeytrio.jpg

or this....

http://www.uul.com.au/images/ostrich.gif

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Quote:

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Originally posted by leftist/arab&#045;extremist&#045;site+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (leftist/arab&#045;extremist&#045;site)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
What is ICAHD

ICAHD is a non-violent, direct-action group originally established to oppose and resist Israeli demolition of Palestinian houses in the Occupied Territories.

As our activists gained direct knowledge of the brutalities of the Occupation, we expanded our resistance activities to other areas - land expropriation, settlement expansion, by-pass road construction, policies of "closure" and "separation," the wholesale uprooting of fruit and olive trees and more. The fierce repression of Palestinian efforts to "shake off" the Occupation following the latest Intifada has only added urgency to our efforts.

As a direct-action group, ICAHD is comprised of members of many Israeli peace and human rights organizations. All of our work in the Occupied Territories is closely co-ordinated with local Palestinian organizations.[/b]

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<!--QuoteBegin-venom@
of course ppl are going to leap at me now claiming i called all Europeans anti-semitic, but anyone who thinks that, please read again and consider i only deal with facts and the general opinion in Europe is no secret according to many surveys, one of them the one claiming Israel is the most dangerous country in the world[/quote]

Translation: "Now I&#39;m not saying all Europeans are anti-semitic, but imho all Europeans are anti-semitic".

You keep on telling yourself that venom. Ignore the many laws we have to protect Jewish people, (its illegal to deny the holocaust in Europe) and just keep on repeating this mantra.

"everyone who disagrees with me is anti-semitic, everyone who disagrees with me is anti-semitic".

<!--QuoteBegin-venom
executed whoever the hell they wanted without trial (whereas Israel puts the most evil murderers in jail), killed Muslim oppressors and then wrapped pork around their bodies to spite them and generally did whatever suited them, without any regard for any native, either Muslim or Jew. not to mention abuse of the mandate that was given to them just until Israel would be ready to stand on it&#39;s own, which it obviously was

now don&#39;t get me wrong - I fully understand the way the UK behaved when they were here and you would never hear me criticize them[/quote]

Venom.. you&#39;re either extremely young, extremely stupid or extremely mad.

Let me put it another way. You wont find anyone of sound mind who would "fully understand" wrapping pork around dead muslims and not criticise it.

Rabid dogs and disease ridden pigs have a stronger moral position than you.

<_<

The comments regarding the attacks on Christians and women were in the US State Department reports on Human Rights Abuses in 1999.

Heres the 2000 Report.

Apparently at that time things were going downhill slightly in most categories...

Remember this report is from the US Government, who will be trying to make it as good as possible for Israel....not a country that will be bending over the opposite way (yes, i know they exist)

Israel&#39;s legal court system is apparently trying to stop things...but is being ignored by the Government. Good for the courts...now try giving them the power they should have and you&#39;ll be on your way.


I like how you state regarding the Press Rankings that its a biased site... biased is whose favour?

The Arab states come of worse than israel, so its obviously not biased in their favour.....

Your ranked 44 on Issues that dont concern the Occupied Territories...any news concerning the territories is much worse.

44 isnt bad(?), however your behind countries such as Equador, El Salvador, Chile, Nicaragua etc etc.....none of which are noted for their "Free Press" which you brag about....however you have to look at the weightings with the Rank, that says how much...in your case its 8, twice that of the UK (and like i said, ours is muzzled for some stupid reasons).

We trail behind Uruaguay and Costa Rica...im not boasting :P

On news concerning the Occupied Territories your ranked at 146..... thats BEHIND The Pallestinian Authority (Ranked 130)...but nevermind, as with weightings of nearly 40, we wont believe them either.... and i did say this was about Government Interference.

The ranking does not say how Biased any news story is either, thats an editorial matter....it just shows how much interference Governments have on the Press.....and it doesnt matter what political bias Israeli Press put either way, if the basic news from the area is interfered with 1st...as in the case of the Occupied Territories.


Im not proud of a lot of things that the UK did, including attemptig to Gas the Kurds in Persia (1930s), but what you just mentiond re: pork around bodies is just sick, if true...Ive never heard that one :(

Quote:

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Originally posted by Billy_Dean@5 February 2004 - 09:53
&nbsp; l&#39;ve also lived among Muslims, they want only what&#39;s theirs. And l&#39;m talking about radical Muslims too. If Israel wants peace, withdraw to 1967 borders, as the UN demands.

---

1) The PLO was founded in 1964, 3 years before stepped foot inside the West Bank/Gaza. Guess who the PLO charter describes as "Occupiers"... is it the Jordanians (who were ocupying the WB), was it the Egyptians (who were occupying Gaza)? No, it was the Israelis. Before they took over the territories.

2) Oct 2003 poll

Quote:

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44.6% of Palestinians say the goal of the intifadah is to get Israel out of the occupied tettitries.

43% say that the goal is to "liberate all of historic Palestine"

61.8% support "suicibe bombings against Israeli civilians".

http://www.jmcc.org/publicpoll/results/2003/no49.pdf

---

3) The stated goal of Hamas is to continue until Israel is no more

4) As already stated, Israel offered return of the territories in 1967 and was flat out rejected. Again, see Khartoum Conference.

"No peace. No recognition. No negotiations."


Spare me the "return to 1967 borders and there will be peace". I do happen to agree that Israel should return the territories but I&#39;m not fooling myself into believing that it&#39;ll bring peace.

Quote:

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And don&#39;t give me semantics about the wording, read the preamble.

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The resolution took over 5 months of negotiations to pass. Please don&#39;t ignore the intentions of the authors of the resolution because you don&#39;t like it.

Lord Carandon, UK ambassador to the UN and an author of Resolution 242:

Quote:

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"We didn&#39;t say there should be withdrawal to the ‘67 line; we did not put ‘the&#39; in, we did not say ‘all the territories&#39; deliberately. We knew that the boundaries of ‘67 were not drawn as permanent frontiers; they were a cease-fire line of a couple of decades earlier. We did not say that the ‘67 boundaries must be forever."

---

Eugene Rostow, US Undersecretary of State, and also an author of Resolution 242:

Quote:

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"[It is] perfectly clear about what the missing definite article in Resolution 242 means. Ingeniously drafted resolutions calling for withdrawal from ‘all&#39; the territories were defeated in the Security Council and the General Assembly. Speaker after speaker made it explicit that Israel was not to be forced back to the ‘fragile&#39; and ‘vulnerable&#39; Armistice Demarcation Lines [1949] but should retire once peace was made to what Resolution 242 called ‘secure and recognized&#39; boundaries, agreed to by the parties"

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Contrary to what someone else posted here, recognition of Israel has come only from Egypt and Jordan. Full recognition of every state in the region and territory withdrawal are both required under 242. It does not state which is to come first.

Quote:

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You wont find anyone of sound mind who would "fully understand" wrapping pork around dead muslims and not criticise it.&nbsp;

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How about calling someone&#39;s mother a "kosher crack whore" in a thread screaming about how not anti-semitic you are?

http://www.alertus.com/images/graphics/thumbs_up.jpg

Quote:

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Originally posted by venom/putty
How about calling someone&#39;s mother a "kosher crack whore" in a thread screaming about how not anti-semitic you are?

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Nope, thats still nowhere near as bad as killing muslims and then wrapping their bodies in pork you lunatic.

As for my "anti-semitic" comment, if your happy to live by the sword then you should be equally as happy to die by it.

So if, at some point in the future, I suggest that people should kill your mother then wrap her body in pork then you might just have a point.

Quote:

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Originally posted by leftism+5 February 2004 - 19:46--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (leftism @ 5 February 2004 - 19:46)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-venom/putty
How about calling someone&#39;s mother a "kosher crack whore" in a thread screaming about how not anti-semitic you are?

---

Nope, thats still nowhere near as bad as killing muslims and then wrapping their bodies in pork you lunatic.

As for my "anti-semitic" comment, if your happy to live by the sword then you should be equally as happy to die by it.

So if, at some point in the future, I suggest that people should kill your mother then wrap her body in pork then you might just have a point. [/b][/quote]
:frusty: Dude, WTF are you talking about?

My mother&#39;s a kosher crack whore and now i&#39;m a lunatic.

From you? Yay&#33;

http://bbs.fuckedcompany.com/icons/smoothfag.gif

Quote:

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Originally posted by putty/venom
My mother&#39;s a kosher crack whore and now i&#39;m a lunatic.

---

Ah.. the little man is so easily confused... :)

Your a lunatic because you support killing muslims and wrapping their bodies in pork, venom/putty.

I&#39;m very sorry to hear that your mother&#39;s a crack whore as I&#39;m sure this factor played a significant role in your descent into lunacy. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Quote:

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Originally posted by leftism+5 February 2004 - 20:09--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (leftism &#064; 5 February 2004 - 20:09)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-putty/venom
My mother&#39;s a kosher crack whore and now i&#39;m a lunatic.

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Ah.. the little man is so easily confused... :)

Your a lunatic because you support killing muslims and wrapping their bodies in pork, venom/putty.

I&#39;m very sorry to hear that your mother&#39;s a crack whore as I&#39;m sure this factor played a significant role in your descent into lunacy. :lol: :lol: :lol: [/b][/quote]
Lefty buddy, get help.

I almost think that you&#39;re a Likud member trolling as a caricature of the anti-Israel crowd.

Trust me, you&#39;re doing your cause no good.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by putty/venom+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (putty/venom)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Trust me, you&#39;re doing your cause no good. [/b]

---

You think?

I&#39;ve just got you to admit that you think killing muslims and wrapping their bodies in pork is a good thing.

I think I&#39;m making excellent progress in unearthing the real you, putty/venom :)

btw I couldnt help but notice yet another innaccuracy in your lunacy.

Quote:

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Originally posted by putty/venom@
executed whoever the hell they wanted without trial (whereas Israel puts the most evil murderers in jail), killed Muslim oppressors and then wrapped pork around their bodies to spite them and generally did whatever suited them, without any regard for any native, either Muslim or Jew. not to mention abuse of the mandate that was given to them just until Israel would be ready to stand on it&#39;s own, which it obviously was

now don&#39;t get me wrong - I fully understand the way the UK behaved when they were here and you would never hear me criticize them

---

They only put the murderers in jail if the victim is Jewish, putty/venom. You get community service for killing Palestinian children.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/1129829.stm

Dont delay&#33; Go out and bag yourself a couple of them before the Judge changes his mind&#33;

Then you can wrap their bodies in pork and put them on the mantelpiece or whatever it is sickos like you do for kicks, buddy :)

PS

I&#39;m just reading through your post where you defended the King David hotel bombing because the bombers gave warnings. In fact, you said that wasnt terrorism.

<!--QuoteBegin-putty/venom
i noticed you brought up king david as a terrorist act[/quote]

One rule for the gentiles and another for the chosen people, eh?

I&#39;ll be quite happy to make mincemeat out of you on this point as well if you like :)

Keep going, you&#39;re doing GREAT&#33;

:lol:

Putty,

I tried to warn you, this thread is a rerun.

EBP referring to Hobbes:

Quote:

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Yet.. I am biased?? I am deceptive?? What an insane state of affairs... Anyone who supports these actions yet claims to be anything other than a psychopath is deceptive in the extreme.

---

This is what EBP told me before his departure and name change to Leftism or 1234 or both. Speculation on my part, but certainly the same song and dance routine.

Hobbes:

Quote:

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I have never tried to justify that Israel is "right" and Palestine "wrong", I have just suggested that it a two way street and that there are extremists on both sides keeping the civilian population hostage. It is time that both sides got control of their extremists and stopped dying for their insanity.
I have also tried to explain why American policy is pro-Israel, rather than justify it.
I would say that I am far closer to being in the pro-people party than EBP. Honestly, I think both sides are just a bunch of lunatics, killing each other to defend their belief in a loving God. The irony is so bitterly rich.

---

From this thread: http://filesharingtalk.com/index.php?showt...ndpost&p=527901 ,but the topic was spread out over several different ones.

My point in the whole thread was above, each time answered with the same, "you support indiscrimate slaughter.....".

I finally learned to jump off the train. If you continue on your journey, remember you and your fellow passengers will enjoy a turbulent ride and end up nowhere.

Thanks hobbes.

There does come a point when you realize that you&#39;re debating a 14 year old and then you start to feel bad about doing it.

Judging Lefty&#39;s posts, that&#39;s pretty much where I am.

:(

Quote:

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Originally posted by hobbes
My point in the whole thread was above, each time answered with the same, "you support indiscrimate slaughter.....".

---

Ahh, so thats what all this EBP weirdness you keep on mentioning is related to.

One quick point hobbes.

Where in this thread have I said the phrase "you support indiscriminate slaughter"?

Putty/Venom revealed that he thought killing muslims and wrapping their bodies in pork was a good idea.

Note carefully

I didnt accuse him of that, he admitted it of his own free will with no accusations from me. I&#39;ve merely used this admission to throw doubt upon putty/venoms position. I think this is quite acceptable.

@putty

Thats a shame. I would have liked to see you explain why the King David hotel bombing wasnt a terrorist act.

Quote:

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Originally posted by leftism+5 February 2004 - 22:20--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (leftism &#064; 5 February 2004 - 22:20)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-hobbes
My point in the whole thread was above, each time answered with the same, "you support indiscrimate slaughter.....".

---

Ahh, so thats what all this EBP weirdness you keep on mentioning is related to.

One quick point hobbes.

Where in this thread have I said the phrase "you support indiscriminate slaughter"?
[/b][/quote]

You didn&#39;t, EBP did. I was making reference to my experiences in the prior thread, not this one. Sorry, if that was unclear.

http://filesharingtalk.com/index.php?showt...ndpost&p=527382

Your words may be different, but the M.O. very similar.

I&#39;ve learned from prior personal failures that if I keep my emotions in check and keep my keel steady in tough waters, I can actually reach people and that what keeps me here. Biggles does a great job of this.

failure edit

J2 has kept the original post intact - gee thanks-later in that same thread-damn quote function.


Personally, I don&#39;t think I&#39;m telling you anything you don&#39;t know. I think you could refine the way you post if you wanted to. You could call peoples&#39; attention to the fact that Israels&#39; role in the perpetuation of the MiddleEast conflict may be significantly under-represented in American media and expand delicately from there.

Calling Americans brain-washed and under the influence of a Zionist media, really starts things off poorly.

Since I think you know this, I just don&#39;t understand what your goal is? I think you&#39;re wasting your intelligence and that is a shame.

I pretty much agree with all the the points you raised, apart from this next bit.

Quote:

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Originally posted by hobbes+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (hobbes)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Calling Americans brain-washed and under the influence of a Zionist media, really starts things off poorly. [/b]

---

I dont recall saying that Americans are brainwashed. However putty/venom did start us off by saying all Europeans are brainwashed. In response (playing devils advocate) I said something along the lines of "how do you know its not you lot who are brainwashed", which is quite different.

I did say that many Americans are influenced by the largely pro-Israel media but I dont think thats offensive and it doesnt constitute brainwashing. There is a reason why companies spend millions on advertising and thats because it works. I dont think its a mark of shame on a nation to say they are affected by this.

What I take issue with is whether proof or logic is offered to show that the media organisations in question really do have this bias. e.g. putty/venom has consistently argued that most Europeans are anti-semitic and that the allegedley pro-arab European media organisations are to blame for this. He&#39;s never offered any logical reasoning or proof to tell us why these media organisations are selling pro-Arab propaganda to a predominantly Judeo-Christian continent.

On the other hand, I and other people in this thread have shown that individuals such as Rupert Murdoch are extremely pro-Israel and even call themselves Zionists. We&#39;ve pointed out that Europe has specific laws aimed at protecting Jews, all to no avail. We are a continent of anti-semites and thats why we disagree with Israel&#39;s policies. If putty/venom wants to label (and insult) an entire continent as anti-semitic, he should at least be polite enough to offer some proof or reasoning.

Instead we are offered a tautology. Why do they disagree with Israel? Because they&#39;re anti-semitic. How do you know they&#39;re anti-semitic? Because they disagree with Israel.

<!--QuoteBegin-hobbes
Since I think you know this, I just don&#39;t understand what your goal is? I think you&#39;re wasting your intelligence and that is a shame.[/quote]

Once it became clear that putty/venom was impervious to any form of rationality I abandoned all attempts to engage in a logical debate. Particularly when he said he "understood" the killing of muslims and the wrapping of their bodies in pork.

People like that can&#39;t be reached, they are just too far gone.

PS

I&#39;ve read a few news reports recently that indicate American public opinion is starting to move away from Israel, albeit quite slowly. Perhaps in a few years time you&#39;ll have the honour of trying to convince putty/venom that your nation isnt composed of jew-haters? If it ever does come to that, I&#39;m pretty sure you&#39;ll understand my hostility :)

Don&#39;t stop now, you&#39;re almost there&#33;

:)

Quote:

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Originally posted by leftism+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (leftism)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Once it became clear that putty/venom was impervious to any form of rationality....[/b]

---

<!--QuoteBegin-putty/venom
Don&#39;t stop now, you&#39;re almost there&#33;[/quote]

I rest my case...

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The bottom line is that both the Israelis and Palestinians are there and neither is going anywhere. Israel will withdraw from just about all the territories. Polls have consistently shown that this is what the Israeli majority wants. The whole debate is how to do it.

---

It is one of the peculiar aspects of Isreali politics that the people always say they want peace and are prepared to sacrifice land for it, but they then elect the leaders least likely to do it. When a leader with a chance to further that policy is finally elected, jewish extremists assasinate him.

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Israel cannot and will not leave a vacuum of power in its place, ready for Hamas and the other terrorists to try and claim power. We all know that Arafat would not stand in their way, for fear of being killed himself.

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As already mentioned, stop destroying any attempt by the PLO to build an infrastructure both in terms of law and law enforcement. Bombing and killing their policemen doesn&#39;t allow them to perform even basic functions.

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Israel has tried since Oslo to take steps back but each time they have, terror attacks have originated from those areas bringing the IDF back in

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Because you are still not pulling back far or fast enough. Stop looking for a face saving way out and just leave all the occupied territories.

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Until Arafat learns that his Israeli-armed forces must take charge then nothing will happen.

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Oh dear you really are out of touch aren&#39;t you. The IDF even destroyed all the infrastructure built by the EU to help govern the PLO admin areas. You certainly don&#39;t supply them with any help of any note, or do you mean "Isreali armed" as in the ammunition you keep sending their way free of charge?

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If England and France can have true peace and England and the US can have real peace then it&#39;ll happen there too. One day.&nbsp;

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Amen, now instead of attempting to defend the indefensible why don&#39;t you help with a solution? If you have the vote, don&#39;t vote for people complicit in mass murder (like Sharon) and instead vote for people willing to work for peace.

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I don&#39;t know why I bother to try and educate you.

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Educate me? You&#39;d have difficulty educating a kindergarten class, no offence.

Quote:

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post from sites with biased sources, ignore that fact and say that you&#39;ve never heard of them (hint: if you read something, look up the sources&#33;)

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I do know my sources, you have yet to find them. You have yet to post a link to the authors, or even mention the name. Not sure why you are pushing this angle when you are so manifestly wrong :)

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you state that all Arab states have recognized Israel (boy I&#39;d love a link to that)

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Ok this is the communique released by the Arab League, and just for comfirmation for you, here is a supporting link for you. Check out the url of that one, going to call that page biased against Isreal too?

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I guess the US and UK and the rest of the world are apartheid too

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Hmm conclusive proof you don&#39;t even read other people&#39;s posts. Did you miss the part where I showed the definition of apartheid? It is not based solely on voting rights or a % representation in parliament

Quote:

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Palestinian kids sent to the front line are 17-18? Funny, that not what the Mothers of Tulkarm say. But if true, why call them children?

---

And again, you didn&#39;t bother to actually read my post. I said 17-18 is fine for fighting on the front line, as the IDF are the same age. I then said under that is not a good thing, but it is a recognised fact of life in resistance movements the world over including the French, Polish and others in WW2. I&#39;d prefer it didn&#39;t happen, but in desperate times resistance movements do desperate things. You see that is the difference between you and the palestinians, they are the agreived party and no amount of reference to the Holocaust will hide your guilt.

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Please post a link to say that 4500 dead. I&#39;d like to see that.

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Btselem.org keeps an up to date list. Note that Btselem is an Isreali group.

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Insulting gentiles? You&#39;ll notice that it&#39;s your side that has insulted religions. kosher crack whore

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I don&#39;t recall calling you that, yet you insult me.

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we have been severely brainwashed by google, CNN and other credible sources

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Google is not a credible source. It is a gateway to a virtual library that contains everything from absolute truth to absolute lies.

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no one would love to harm Israel more than the Israeli media and that&#39;s a fact

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Yep, that media hates you more than the people who&#39;s homes you demolish and children you kill.

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one of the most anti Israeli media is Israel&#39;s

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Get a grip, I think Libya&#39;s media is probably more anti Isreali than yours is. Along with a whole lot of other media sources.

Quote:

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censored Israeli media ROFL&nbsp; and hearing that from a BBC viewer, that&#39;s a killer&nbsp;

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You don&#39;t seem to be seeing all the children being killed, so I can only assume it is censored from your tv&#39;s like it is in the US. Btw, Channel 4 News viewer, not BBC :)

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if we gave up our territories&nbsp; the situation would change and regardless of win or lose, a war would take a bigger toll on Israel .. FFS such simple logic escapes you

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I see, so your nukes are hand thrown then are they? Along with all your other missiles? They must be if a small series of hills suddenly renders them useless.

Quote:

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we were the ones who always had a settlement here and the Arabs were the nomads you tool, Arab immigrates only came here after the Zionists started developing the country in the late 19th century

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Nomads? You are borderline racist. There were civilisations in that area with important cities for millenia. It has been one of the most contested chunks of several empires for centuries. Please do some research on where you appear to live. I suggest starting with Byzantine and Ottoman Empires.

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&nbsp; Israel didn&#39;t need to blackmail the US because they were already helping, i mean your lies don&#39;t even make any sense, what&#39;s up with that? and Israel has never even admitted to having nukes, much less state they&#39;d use it as first strike&nbsp; ans it&#39;s funny how you know what Dayan wanted to do, really.. you must be a great telepath

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I&#39;m not a telepath, it&#39;s just that the documents are in the open. Here is a link covering this story from that bastion of anti semitism - the USAF.

Quote:

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even if Israel used the nukes at that time.. it was only after the Egyptians and Syrians were well in the midst of their combined attack (that went pretty well and was close to success, success meaning destroying Israel).. so how would that be pre-emptive, genius

---

Pre-emptive as in first use of nuclear weapons. No other nation has said they would use nukes first, with the recent exception of the US. MAD was all about not using yours because the enemy would use his. No one apart from Isreal and the current US admin is stupid enough to want to use nukes in a conventional war.

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your government and therefore the vast majority of the UK population does consider using nukes

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Wrong on two counts. First, a govt is not usually of the same opinion as the majority of the population. Look at both the US and the UK for examples of that. Secondly, most of the the UK population does not want nukes in our country and neither does most of Blairs party. A high % of the Labour party were/are members of CND.

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otherwise you wouldn&#39;t have them

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We have them a) because in the 50&#39;s it was a matter of misguided national pride B) no prime minister have ever wanted to get rid of them. Note that&#39;s the PM, not the population (or even the cabinet).

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we&#39;ve seen the UN and it&#39;s troops (who allowed the kidnapping of 3 of our soldiers in front of their eyes and then withheld information from us).&nbsp;

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And the IDF has slaughtered 1000&#39;s of people in front of international observers and the UN (when they are allowed access at all). Hmm, 3 vs 1000&#39;s. Looks like the UN must favour you by a factor of several 1000 to 1 if we use your logic.

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regarding bombing of Dublin, well obviously no. you haven&#39;t been listening to what Ive been saying&nbsp;

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I understand exactly, you are avoiding the point. You drop missiles into heavily populated areas to kill one or two terrorists, but you are saying the UK would have been wrong to do the same to Dublin? Hypocrisy.

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what are these other mysterious wars you mention?

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Are you even aware of the country of Lebanon? You have invaded it several times, most notably in the early 80&#39;s when Sharon was sacked as Defence Minister for complicity in the deaths of 1000&#39;s of civilians in two refugee camps. Why am I having to tell you your own history?

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just keep in mind that Israel has NEVER been on the offensive initially and always retaliated for it&#39;s own safety. anything beyond that is complete bull&nbsp;

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I repeat, should the UK have invaded Eire because a few rockets were fired into NI? Please don&#39;t avoid the question yet again.

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if you understood THERE&#39;S NO SUCH THING AS THE PALESTINIAN ENTITY, they never had a country and they have always been refugees and immigrants from different of Arab states,

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Palestine (or Filastin as it was known) has been around since 638AD when the Muslim faith took control of the area. Before that it was known to the Byzantines, Greeks, Persians and Egyptians. Are you seriously trying to deny the whole swathe of recorded history in the area? People have lived there since recorded time began pretty much, and their descendents still live there today.

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what they have done, however, is run from the land after being promised by their Arab friends to get the land after the war was over and Israel destroyed.&nbsp;

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Run from what land? What on earth are you talking about here? The only land they have left is that which jewish isreali&#39;s live on now.

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so far Israel has been treating them the best, far better than Lebanon and and Egypt who butchered them by the tens of thousands

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Lebanon and Egypt butchered them by the tens of thousands? Source please? Or are you referring to some bygone age in history? What we do know for sure though is that the IDF kills them to this day, and that your PM was found guilty by Isreal of complicity in the deaths of 1000&#39;s in Lebanon. No answer to the water rights and land rights questions then? You avoid addressing anything you find counter to your pre determined beliefs.

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the only purpose of it&#39;s existence, as written in it&#39;s official decleration, is to add another front (political) to the war upon israel in the ultimate purpose of all arab states to destroy

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See my link above about the Arab League recognising Isreal if Isreal also complies with 242. Arafat wanted to attend that meeting btw to add his voice to the debate, but was barred by the Isreali&#39;s from taking part. The Isreali&#39;s refuse to let him leave Ramallah and block his communications to the outside world including to govts such as the UK. Arafat, just to remind you, is the democratically elected leader of the palestinians.

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Israel never offered the Palestinians a country? besides what putty said, what about camp David where Barak offered 98% of the so called "territories" to Arafat and he declined ?

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Ah Barak, was waiting for that one. He offered a territory crisscrossed with Isreali settlements and secure routes held by the IDF, with the water access predominatly in the Isreali areas. He also knew he was about to be voted out of office a week later and that the agreement would never pass the Knesset or his cabinet (or indeed ever be put to the vote). A week or two later he was gone. Of course he also never addressed the right of return either, a claim subsequently dropped by the Arab League in it&#39;s communique.

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and regarding the "occupation" - like putty said, Israel has immediately offered the entire liberated land to Egypt (Gaza strip) and to Jordan (Judea and Samaria) after the occupation who both declined&nbsp;

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Isreal did not offer all the occupied land back and crucially refused to allow palestinians thrown off their own land to return.

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they didn&#39;t want the Palestinians, they knew just how great the Palestinians were

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If the other arab countries accepted all the refugee&#39;s that Isreal has created it would a) overburden their economies B) legitimise the Isreali aggression. Are you saying that Hitler was quite right to deal with the Jews as he did because other countries did not accept them as refugee&#39;s?

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Palestinian tanks ?&#33;?&#33; what are you talking about ?? can your logic be that bad or was that some sort of joke?

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You mentioned the wall couldn&#39;t keep out tanks. I asked where those palestinian tanks were. I assume you were either joking or just plain ignorant.

Quote:

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I&#39;m talking about Syrian and Egyptian tanks that&#39;d go through the "Palestinian" land without any resistance

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What would they resist them with? Why should they resist an army that is fighting the occupier of their land? Did the French resist the allies at Normandy?

Regardless, this is a red herring as we are dealing with the Palestinians not the Egyptians or Syrians.

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and prey tell, what would you have us do if the nice little Palestinian country were to start arming itself with tanks, airplanes and missiles ?

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What should the UK do if Eire starts buying more tanks? What should the US do if Mexico buys some more tanks? What a country does for it&#39;s own defence in it&#39;s own lands is it&#39;s own perogative. It&#39;s none of your damn business what a palestinian state does until it invades. Then you can obliterate it with your Made in the USA army.

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it&#39;s obvious a Palestinian country would be a terror country, possibly owned by Syria like Lebanon, do we want them to have the strategical advantage
as well ? well obviously you do, forget it

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It&#39;s obvious? Who&#39;s psychic now? Isreal is owned by the US, so obviously foreign ownership isn&#39;t a problem. If you doubt that statement, look into your budget.

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&nbsp; have actually addressed the so called human shield civilian bombing etc issues , and your failure to accept facts stands still. putty addressed the legal issues, again, reality -1, you - 0

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You addressed nothing. Why is it right for you to bomb palestinian civilian areas, but it would be wrong for the UK to bomb Eire? How is using civilians as human shields by the IDF ok, but palestinians hiding among their own population as part of a popular resistance wrong?

Quote:

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&nbsp; like putty said, the only side that has brought up religion and ethnicity is yours.

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You are the ones calling us anti semitic. Such an irony that Isreal is the most anti semitic state in the world since palestinians are semites. Or do you prefer to hang onto the definition a fascist gave the word? Doesn&#39;t matter really, neither he nor you have the power to change language.

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your true nature is only becoming more and more apparent

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What nature is that? Someone who can pierce your lies and deceptions and render you unable to conduct a rational debate? Aww shucks :P

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specific houses are demolished so they would not serve as terrorist outposts

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The IDF targets the homes of relatives of suicide bombers in direct contravention of the Geneva Conventions. It also demolishes homes to make room for jews, and just to harass palestinians (such as the recent crop destructions).

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&nbsp; I hope I don&#39;t need to remind you under which circumstances this country was established, why it&#39;s called "the land of the Jews" and why it&#39;s important to preserve a Jewish majority resulting inevitably in unfair rules in that regard.

---

So you admit apartheid finally. It&#39;s good to be honest. So since you got "the land of the jews", where is the "land of the palestinians" that the UN also decreed at the same time? Come to that, where is "the land of the Roma"? As a % of population, more of us were wiped out than jews yet we are still the subject of pograms. I told you the Holocaust was not a solely Jewish tragedy.

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did you know the vast majority of Palestinians support terrorism&nbsp;

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To drive the IDF out of their land. That is called resistance.

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go out to the streets dancing after every terrorist attack (including the 9/11) ?

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So you know that film was taken on 9/11 do you? The one on Fox/Cnn etc. It was apparently actually from a religious festival some time earlier. Of course some palestinians did support the attacks on the US - because the army that kills them daily has Made in US stamped on it.

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&nbsp; Israeli Muslim Arabs - did you know that EVERY SINGLE terrorist attack was due to the help of an Israeli Muslim Arab ?

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Utter rubbish. Mortar attacks need no help from anyone in Isreal as they are fired from outside Isreal. Suicide bombers get through due to faked papers, lax security, any number of things. I can only recall a few arab Isreali&#39;s being prosecuted for aiding specific terrorist attacks, so please enlighten us with a breakdown of who, what, and where for all these people.

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we have all seen how the UK behaved when they were here&nbsp;

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So if the UK did it over 80 years ago it&#39;s ok? That mean Egypt can build some gas chambers and copy how Hitler behaved only 60 years ago?

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&nbsp; I fully understand the way the UK behaved when they were here and you would never hear me criticize them

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Yes we know, due to your racism and fascist leanings.

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why the massive interest in Israel? the Russians are doing far worse with the Chechen&#39;s (somehow i think the Russians don&#39;t really need that territory) and so are the Chinese in Tibet. there are other countless examples in the world.

---

Because we don&#39;t get lots of Russians and Chinese in here saying how wonderful and compassionate their countries are. Zionists refuse to acknowledge the evil that Isreal does and paint an utterly fictious picture of the region so some of us have fun correcting you and watching you squirm.

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The PLO was founded in 1964, 3 years before stepped foot inside the West Bank/Gaza

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But 16 years after the palestinians didn&#39;t get the state the UN granted them.

Quote:

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The stated goal of Hamas is to continue until Israel is no more

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Know why Hamas is so popular? It funds food and education for people, something the IDF-crippled PLO cannot do. Refer to my point earlier about the linkage between occupation, resistance and terrorist movements.

Quote:

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As already stated, Israel offered return of the territories in 1967 and was flat out rejected. Again, see Khartoum Conference.

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Arab League, cited earlier.

Quote:

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This is what EBP told me before his departure and name change to Leftism or 1234 or both

---

I have no idea who this EBP is, but I am sure they would be gratified to know that you still harp on about him/her after all this time. I am not that perosn, and your attempts to confine certain opinions to certain people is just an attempt at denial of how widespread those views are.

Quote:

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It is one of the peculiar aspects of Isreali politics that the people always say they want peace and are prepared to sacrifice land for it, but they then elect the leaders least likely to do it. When a leader with a chance to further that policy is finally elected, jewish extremists assasinate him.

---

The Israeli public elected Barak who offered the Palestinians enough to get a final settlement. Before you start blabbering about canotons, go read about the Taba agreement that Arafat claimed was a humiliation, only to say 18 months later say "I am prepared to accept it, absolutely".

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Sto...741842,00.html

Evidently, Barak&#39;s offer was acceptable once it was no longer on the table.

In 1996, the Israeli public was set to elect the voice of the Left, Shimon Peres as he led right-wing Netanyahu by 20% just 2 months before the election. Hamas and Islamic Jihad bombed buses and restaurants non-stop for those last two months while Arafat sat on his ass and watched. Peres&#39; support dropped with each bombing until Netanyahu pulled out a victory by less than 1%.

If only Arafat realized (cared) how much he affects Israeli elections.

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When a leader with a chance to further that policy is finally elected, jewish extremists assasinate him.

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Israel hardly has a patent on PM assasinations. Anwar Sadat was killed by his own troops after he made peace with Israel and got back the entire Sinai.

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Oh dear you really are out of touch aren&#39;t you. The IDF even destroyed all the infrastructure built by the EU to help govern the PLO admin areas. You certainly don&#39;t supply them with any help of any note, or do you mean "Isreali armed" as in the ammunition you keep sending their way free of charge?

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Read the Oslo Accord. Israel supplied the Palestnian police force with 20 000 rifles to use in order to provide order and security to the areas that Israel departed from.

http://www.mediamonitors.net/salahmusa1.html (A Palestinian activists words)

When one of the high ranking Fatah leaders was in Canada 4 years ago, he made a statement that Palestinians now have 20,000 rifles instead of 100 during the first Intifada. Wrongly implying, in case of another uprising or Israeli aggression the Palestinians were in better shape to resist due to Oslo.

Israel did not start targetting the PA police infrastructure until a full year had passed in the current intifadah. That&#39;s a hell of a lot of time from 1993. You&#39;ll also notice the Btselem stats for number dead jump in 2002 once Palestinian police became neck-deep into the attacks.

In addition...

Oslo Accord, Chapter 2, Article XIV:

4. Except for the arms, ammunition and equipment of the Palestinian Police described in Annex I, and those of the Israeli military forces, no organization, group or individual in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip shall manufacture, sell, acquire, possess, import or otherwise introduce into the West Bank or the Gaza Strip any firearms, ammunition, weapons, explosives, gunpowder or any related equipment, unless otherwise provided for in Annex I.

Article XV:

1. Both sides shall take all measures necessary in order to prevent acts of terrorism, crime and hostilities directed against each other, against individuals falling under the other&#39;s authority and against their property, and shall take legal measures against offenders.

In fact, 1994-1996 were particularly bad years in terms of suicide bombs.


Contrast this with the Baruch Goldstein terrorist attack on Muslims. In March 1994, the Israeli cabinet immediately declared Kahane Chai and Kach "terrorist organizations" and made them illegal.

http://library.nps.navy.mil/home/tgp/kach.htm

We&#39;re still waiting for Arafat to declare Hamas or Islamic Jihad or PLFP or any other terrorist group "illegal".

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If you have the vote, don&#39;t vote for people complicit in mass murder (like Sharon) and instead vote for people willing to work for peace.

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The only reason that Sharon was elected is the same reason that Netanyahu was elected. Palestinians always seem to step up the bombings when Israelis are given a choice between the Left and Right wing leader.

Barak made a great offer at Taba, one that Arafat later said that he&#39;d be glad to accept. When it was rejected and Arafat had already started his planned war the Israeli public went hard-line. Just as any nation does when it&#39;s faced with struggle.

And if you don&#39;t believe that Arafat planned the intifadah, listen to his Communications Minister, Imad Al-Faluji, who is very open about it.

"Whoever thinks that the Intifada broke out because of the despised Sharon’s visit to the Al-Aqsa Mosque, is wrong, even if this visit was the straw that broke the back of the Palestinian people. This Intifada was planned in advance, ever since President Arafat’s return from the Camp David negotiations, where he turned the table upside down on President Clinton. [Arafat] remained steadfast and challenged [Clinton]. He rejected the American terms and he did it in the heart of the US...

The PA instructed the political forces and factions to run all matters of the Intifada..."

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I do know my sources, you have yet to find them. You have yet to post a link to the authors, or even mention the name. Not sure why you are pushing this angle when you are so manifestly wrong :)

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Um, hello?

Your water article was written by this guy at this site:

http://desip.igc.org/TheftOfWater.html

You say that he referenced UN documents for his facts. I pointed out that he lists his sources as:

Sharif Elmusa
MEI (a site that hosts opinion articles)
The Journal of Palestine Studies
a book entitled "Taking Sides: America&#39;s Secret Relations with a Militant Israel"
Hussein Amery, a Palestinian activist

If those are your source&#39;s sources, you&#39;ve got a problem.

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Ok this is the communique released by the Arab League,&nbsp;

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:)

This offer by the Arab League goes further than UN 242. It calls for return of "all the territories". 242 does not.

Again, your quote "The arab states however have all recognised Isreals right to exist" is not true. It has been offered as part of this agreement and has always been the basis of all negotiations. It has not occured, contrary to whatever you say.

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It is not based solely on voting rights or a % representation in parliament

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:)

You are the one that claimed that there is some sort of racism because the % of Arab parliamentary members is only half the % of Israeli citizenship.

Apartheid:

1) An official policy of racial segregation formerly practiced in the Republic of South Africa, involving political, legal, and economic discrimination against nonwhites.
2) A policy or practice of separating or segregating groups.
3) The condition of being separated from others; segregation.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=apartheid

When you mention apartheid, people think South Africa. It&#39;s even the most common definition in dictionaries. If you mean it in reference to #2 or #3, it&#39;s a pretty damn broad definition and I guarantee you that the US, UK, and pretty much every country in the world is guilty of apartheid.

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And again, you didn&#39;t bother to actually read my post. I said 17-18 is fine for fighting on the front line

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Oh yes, I did read that. The problem is that you didn&#39;t address my point. It&#39;s children that the PA bring to the front lines, while militants fire over their heeads. Not 17 & 18 year olds. Again, ask The Mothers of Tulkarm.

The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem:

“The younger the martyr, the greater and the more I respect him”Al-Ahram Al-Arabi, Oct. 28

October 31, 2000 AP report:

Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat on Tuesday called for renewed resistance by young activists, "these children who throw the stones to defend Jerusalem, the Muslims and the holy places."

In a 2000 Btselem report, here&#39;s what foriegn journalists saw going on:

Suddenly a blue commercial vehicle appeared and stopped around 20 meters away from us, some 30 meters from young Palestinians who were at the front of the demonstration. Three Palestinians, 20 to 30-years-old, were inside. They called to the children, gave orders, and distributed Molotov cocktails. I asked my photographer to film it. One of the children noticed, shouted out a warning, and within 15 seconds we were surrounded. The vehicle drove ahead 20 meters and stopped. The three men inside ran to the back and snatched the camera from the photographer. One of them shouted, "Kill, kill."

In October 2000, UNICEF urged the PA to stop

BTW, Israelis enter the army at 18, not 17. Keep your facts straights.

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they are the agreived party and no amount of reference to the Holocaust will hide your guilt.

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Excuse me, but your the one who likened the Palestinian towns to WWII ghettos, either in this thread or the other.

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Btselem.org keeps an up to date list. Note that Btselem is an Isreali
group.

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Yeah, I kinda figured that you were lying about 4500 Palestinian and 480 Israelis dead. That&#39;s why I asked.

You used Btselem&#39;s figure for Israeli civilians only but their number for TOTAL Palestinians killed. The problem with Btselem&#39;s numbers are that they categorize any non-uniformed person killed as civilian. The vast majority of Palestinian combatants are not uniformed.

Anyways, Btselems latest numbers are:

Inside the territories: 2300 Palestinians (militants & civilians) and 400 Israelis (soldiers & civilians).

Inside Israel:

48 Palestinians and 450 Israelis.

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I&#39;m not a telepath, it&#39;s just that the documents are in the open. Here is a link covering this story from that bastion of anti semitism - the USAF.

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Your article does not state that Dayan wanted to use nuclear arms. It says that he armed weapons and put the army on nuclear alert. Do you find it incomprehensible that a country in the midst of war against 5 other countries would arm their weapons?

Whatever. Even during the 1st Gulf war, Israel stated that the only way WMD would be used against Iraq was if Scuds contained WMD themselves.

And regarding your USAF source, this is sitting there right at the top:

The views expressed in this publication are those solely of the author and are not a statement of official policy or position of the U.S. Government, the Department of Defense, the U.S. Army, or the USAF Counterproliferation Center.

I believe that he&#39;s referring to Jordan and Lebanon. Jordan killed up to 30 000 Palestinians in one month in 1970, but of course there was no covenant to destroy Jordan and no UN resolution condemning Jordan.

WRT Lebanon, you&#39;ll recall that although Sharon was found to be indirectly responsible (he should&#39;ve known better), it was the Lebanese Christians who were responsible for Sabra and Shatilla.

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See my link above about the Arab League recognising Isreal if Isreal also complies with 242.

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Wrong. See above.

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Ah Barak, was waiting for that one. He offered a territory crisscrossed with Isreali settlements and secure routes held by the IDF, with the water access predominatly in the Isreali areas.

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Wrong. See Taba. See Arafat&#39;s statement 18 months later that he&#39;d accept it then.

Taba map:

http://www.fmep.org/maps/2001/taba.jpg

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Isreal did not offer all the occupied land back and crucially refused to allow palestinians thrown off their own land to return.

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It is impossible to know how many and which ones were kicked out and which left on their own in order to allow for conquering Arab armies. Please don&#39;t tell me that you&#39;re about to deny that. Family reunification is reasonable and will happen.

Up to 800,000 Jews were kicked out of fled from Arab countries around the same time. There is no going back for them.

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If the other arab countries accepted all the refugee&#39;s that Isreal has created it would a) overburden their economies B) legitimise the Isreali aggression.

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Sigh.

a) the same for Israel. It would double their population.

B) Again, see the UN&#39;s Convention on the Territorial Sea and Contiguous Zone. Egypt blocked Israeli access to oil and ordered the UN out of peacekeeping buffer zone. Egypt signed a defense agreement with Jordan. You bet Israel would strike first.

Israel, however, did not strike first against Jordan and even told Hussein that they will not open that front if Jordan sayed out. Jordan struck first and created the occupied territory problem. If Jordan had not struck first, the West Bank would be a Palestinian state.

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So since you got "the land of the jews", where is the "land of the palestinians" that the UN also decreed at the same time?

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It was in their hand, but 5 Arab countries decided to try and take the whole pie instead. They lost. Nothing prevented a Palestinian country being created in the West Bank from 1948-1967, though. Why wasn&#39;t it?

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So you know that film was taken on 9/11 do you? The one on Fox/Cnn etc. It was apparently actually from a religious festival some time earlier.

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This is turning into a theme, but wrong again.

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/cnn.htm

The person who started that rumour was a Brazilian university student who posted it on... guess where... indymedia&#33; Of course, it spread like wildfire among those who believe any anti-Israel junk that is spewed. I&#39;m not surprised that you believed it too.

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me: The PLO was founded in 1964, 3 years before stepped foot inside the West Bank/Gaza

you: But 16 years after the palestinians didn&#39;t get the state the UN granted them.

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So why name Israel as the occupying force and not Jordan, who were occupying the West Bank or Egypt, who were occupying Gaza?

You know, this is silly. Neither will convince the other. Do I believe that Israel is 100% correct? No. But put in the situation in which it finds itself, I think it&#39;s done about as expected. Israelis, contrary to what you might think are not inherently evil and neither are Palestinians.

As someone else has posted, UK troops have shot & killed a number of civilian protesters in Iraq. Blameless? No. Understandable under the circumstances? Yes. As everyone knows, US troops are guilty of the same. Now, add in dozens of suicide bombs in US cities and a highly organized terrorist infrastructure (Iraq&#39;s is pretty disorganized these days) and you&#39;d see a hell of a lot more civiians getting killed. Already, more Iraqi civilians have been killed in the past year than Palestinians in the 3 years. So if Israel is targetting civilians, what the hell are Americans doing? Taking better aim?

You can keep going with this but I just don&#39;t have the time. When you want to discuss the real issues and perhaps find common ground, lemme know.

Sorry venom, for answering some his replies to your posts.

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The Israeli public elected Barak who offered the Palestinians enough to get a final settlement. Before you start blabbering about canotons, go read about the Taba agreement that Arafat claimed was a humiliation, only to say 18 months later say "I am prepared to accept it, absolutely"

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This contradicts what I said ... how exactly? Between the two dates Arafat has shifted on the right of return (as have the Arab League) and is prepared to compromise. Where are Isreal&#39;s compromises &#39;in return?

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In 1996, the Israeli public was set to elect the voice of the Left, Shimon Peres as he led right-wing Netanyahu by 20% just 2 months before the election. Hamas and Islamic Jihad bombed buses and restaurants non-stop for those last two months while Arafat sat on his ass and watched. Peres&#39; support dropped with each bombing until Netanyahu pulled out a victory by less than 1%.

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The IRA used to do the same here in elections. You are going to let Hamas and other terrorists appropriate the peace process? The reason Arafat "sat on his ass" is beacause he is ringed by the IDF who refuse to let him travel and even have communications with the outside world. Any attempt at reconstruction is destroyed by the IDF. Incidently, I don&#39;t regard Arafat as some Messiah figure. He is the elected leader of the palestinians - no more no less. He is like politicians everywhere, and far from perfect.

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If only Arafat realized (cared) how much he affects Israeli elections.

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You mean Hamas and how much Sharon and others let them dictate events. Remember you are talking to someone from a country with long experience of terrorism.

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Israel hardly has a patent on PM assasinations. Anwar Sadat was killed by his own troops after he made peace with Israel and got back the entire Sinai&nbsp;

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I agree, your point is? Again you bring Egypt and others into a discussion of the palestinians.

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Read the Oslo Accord. Israel supplied the Palestnian police force with 20 000 rifles to use in order to provide order and security to the areas that Israel departed from.

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I said help of any note. Adding 20000 guns to an unstable region is not exactly helpful. Try not demolishing police stations, shooting policemen, and the rest of the box of tricks used by the IDF to stop a palestinians infrastructure.

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Israel did not start targetting the PA police infrastructure until a full year had passed in the current intifadah.

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Isreal has always targetted any signs of the formation of a viable palestinian state. That includes the security forces such as police. For further evidence, see what happened to the equipment provided by the EU.

You keep saying "current intifada" btw. Why are you atetmpting to split into small parts a resistance movement that has being on since 1948? Do you have seperate names for different eras of resistance in France?

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You&#39;ll also notice the Btselem stats for number dead jump in 2002 once Palestinian police became neck-deep into the attacks

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The spike is due to numerous IDF raids on heavily populated towns and refugee camps.

You quote the Oslo accords and demand that the palestinians abide by them, but why don&#39;t the Isreali&#39;s? Do you criticise them for not complying either?

The Article you quote is violated by Isreal daily - Both sides shall take all measures necessary in order to prevent acts of terrorism, crime and hostilities directed against each other, against individuals falling under the other&#39;s authority and against their property, and shall take legal measures against offenders.


There are no convictions for the mass punishments and the home demolitions never mind the murders by the IDF. Even for foreigners all you might get is a negligance charge and not even man slaughter for shooting an unarmed man holding a child in the head.

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In March 1994, the Israeli cabinet immediately declared Kahane Chai and Kach "terrorist organizations" and made them illegal.

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Arafat has condemned bombings by Hamas as terrorism too and he would dearly love to close it down if he could. Point is he can&#39;t when the IDF has him under house arrest without communications and bombs his police. Any politician would love to remove his political opponents, Arafat is no different. Why do you hold a whole people responsible for the terrorism of a few, when the same law could be applied to Isreal? Should we all judge Israel by Kach? If not then we should not judge all palestinians by Hamas.

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We&#39;re still waiting for Arafat to declare Hamas or Islamic Jihad or PLFP or any other terrorist group "illegal".

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He has called bombing terrorism many times, he just can&#39;t do anything to stop them. Apart from the reasons outlined above, due to PLO weakness Hamas has become one of the main sources of education and aid to many palestinians and has been allowed to become a de facto political party due to the IDF caused chaos in the occupied territories.

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The only reason that Sharon was elected is the same reason that Netanyahu was elected. Palestinians always seem to step up the bombings when Israelis are given a choice between the Left and Right wing leader.

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If you keep saying "palestinians" when you mean Hamas etc I will be forced to refer to all Isreali&#39;s as Kach supporters and ethnic cleansers who approve of mass murder. Deal?

If you can&#39;t leave your racism at the door there is no point discussing anything with you as your hate overrides any logic.

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And if you don&#39;t believe that Arafat planned the intifadah, listen to his Communications Minister, Imad Al-Faluji, who is very open about it

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Care to provide the rest of that quote? Thought not, so I will.

The leadership had invested all of its efforts in political and diplomatic channels in order to fix the flaws in the negotiations and the peace process, but to no avail. It encountered Israeli stubbornness and continuous renunciation of the (Palestinian) rights

So they prepared to continue the struggle if the US failed to pressure Isreal. Sounds fair enough to me.

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Your water article was written by this guy at this site

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For the last time, no it wasn&#39;t. Here&#39;s a clue - the original data is from a human rights group.

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You say that he referenced UN documents for his facts. I pointed out that he lists his sources as ....

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Nope, I said the site (note, not page) I got the info from has UN docs, govt reports, independant reports etc. So please, for the sake of your dignity, stop lying about what I said when anyone can check my posts and find out the truth.

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If those are your source&#39;s sources, you&#39;ve got a problem.

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Heh nope, you have though as you have no idea where the data comes from.

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This offer by the Arab League goes further than UN 242. It calls for return of "all the territories". 242 does not.

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You have already posted the manipulations that went into the wording of the UN document by the US and others under Isreali influence. Under international law, they have to return all the land as it was taken in a war of conquest. Kind of like Kuwait, Poland, France etc. They have also dropped the demand for a right of return in order to make compromises acceptable to the Isreali&#39;s.

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your quote "The arab states however have all recognised Isreals right to exist" is not true. It has been offered as part of this agreement and has always been the basis of all negotiations. It has not occured, contrary to whatever you say.

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If the Isreali&#39;s got out of the occupied territories, as demanded by the UN and law, then they would get recognition. The Arabs are just complying with the UN, why aren&#39;t the Isreali&#39;s? On anything? The recognition is there, pending Isreal returning to the fold of civilised nations. Until then, recognition is moot as Isreal is in the same category as many rogue nations not recognised by the world in part or whole.

The offer is there though, peace on the terms of 242, with the palestinians giving up a major legal right. Why are you not pushing for Isreali acceptance?

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You are the one that claimed that there is some sort of racism because the % of Arab parliamentary members is only half the % of Israeli citizenship.

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No that was you who mentioned the %, I just commented that it was half of the actual % of palestinians in the population as an aside. I have pointed out that apartheid is not a factor of suffrage or representation alone. I even gave you a link to the UN site with the specific definition. Try reading this instead of the dictionary, you will find it much more informative.

Here is Article II - For the purpose of the present Convention, the term "the crime of apartheid", which shall include similar policies and practices of racial segregation and discrimination as practised in southern Africa, shall apply to the following inhuman acts committed for the purpose of establishing and maintaining domination by one racial group of persons over any other racial group of persons and systematically oppressing them:

(a) Denial to a member or members of a racial group or groups of the right to life and liberty of person:

(i) By murder of members of a racial group or groups;

(ii) By the infliction upon the members of a racial group or groups of serious bodily or mental harm, by the infringement of their freedom or dignity, or by subjecting them to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment;

(iii) By arbitrary arrest and illegal imprisonment of the members of a racial group or groups;

(B) Deliberate imposition on a racial group or groups of living conditions calculated to cause its or their physical destruction in whole or in part;

&copy; Any legislative measures and other measures calculated to prevent a racial group or groups from participation in the political, social, economic and cultural life of the country and the deliberate creation of conditions preventing the full development of such a group or groups, in particular by denying to members of a racial group or groups basic human rights and freedoms, including the right to work, the right to form recognized trade unions, the right to education, the right to leave and to return to their country, the right to a nationality, the right to freedom of movement and residence, the right to freedom of opinion and expression, and the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and association;

d) Any measures including legislative measures, designed to divide the population along racial lines by the creation of separate reserves and ghettos for the members of a racial group or groups, the prohibition of mixed marriages among members of various racial groups, the expropriation of landed property belonging to a racial group or groups or to members thereof;


(e) Exploitation of the labour of the members of a racial group or groups, in particular by submitting them to forced labour;

(f) Persecution of organizations and persons, by depriving them of fundamental rights and freedoms, because they oppose apartheid


Israel violates these daily.

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The problem is that you didn&#39;t address my point. It&#39;s children that the PA bring to the front lines, while militants fire over their heeads

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I did address that, read my posts rather than skimming please.

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Israelis enter the army at 18, not 17. Keep your facts straights

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If the IDF is anything like the UK army for eg, you can join slightly before the stated min age for training purposes etc. Still, that extra day makes all the difference does it? :o

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Excuse me, but your the one who likened the Palestinian towns to WWII ghettos, either in this thread or the other

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You misunderstand me, I am referring to such quotes from you as "remember why Isreal was founded", the endless accusations of anti semitism, and the use of the Holocaust as a bargaining chip by Isreali politicians.

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Yeah, I kinda figured that you were lying about 4500 Palestinian and 480 Israelis dead. That&#39;s why I asked

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Your proof is where? The Btselem site (which is down right now so I doubt you checked the site since I posted) lists the dead as 4500 and 480. Unless of course you are using a different date arbitrarily. From what date are you counting?

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You used Btselem&#39;s figure for Israeli civilians only but their number for TOTAL Palestinians killed. The problem with Btselem&#39;s numbers are that they categorize any non-uniformed person killed as civilian. The vast majority of Palestinian combatants are not uniformed.

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This matters how? I said palestinian civilians, I count resistance fighters as those civilians. Whether you do or not is irrelavent to the death count. Get out of their land and those civilians wouldn&#39;t need to be fighting. Regardless, the vast majority are not connected to armed groups in any way and are simply in the wrong place at the wrong time.

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Anyways, Btselems latest numbers are:

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Ah "latest". From when to when? A link to the Btselem page where you got the info would be good. I think you are probably referring to the dates 2000 to 2003, where the figures are 2700 dead and 25000 injured. Why are you only starting then? People were dying before that time.

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I believe that he&#39;s referring to Jordan and Lebanon. Jordan killed up to 30 000 Palestinians in one month in 1970, but of course there was no covenant to destroy Jordan and no UN resolution condemning Jordan.

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You believe? You mean you have no idea if it&#39;s true or not. Even the most rabid zionist site I could find listed the number as 10000 maximun casualties total on both sides.

The 1967 war led to a dramatic increase in the number of Palestinians living in Jordan. Its Palestinian refugee population -- 700,000 in 1966 -- grew by another 300,000 from the West Bank. The period following the 1967 war saw an upsurge in the power and importance of Palestinian resistance in Jordan. The heavily armed fedayeen constituted a growing threat to the sovereignty and security of the Hashemite state, and open fighting erupted in June 1970. Isreali raids on Jordan in revenge for attacks launched from Jordanian land were also a motivation to remove the fedayeen.

Other Arab governments attempted to work out a peaceful solution, but by September, continuing fedayeen actions in Jordan -- including the destruction of three international airliners hijacked and held in the desert east of Amman -- prompted the government to take action to regain control over its territory and population. In the ensuing heavy fighting, a Syrian tank force took up positions in northern Jordan to support the fedayeen but was forced to retreat. By September 22, Arab foreign ministers meeting at Cairo had arranged a cease-fire beginning the following day. Sporadic violence continued, however, until Jordanian forces won a decisive victory over the fedayeen in July 1971, expelling them from the country.

So Isreal stirred up the region by annexing the occupied territories and expelling 300000 extra refugee&#39;s that were beyond the capacity of Jordan to cope. The resulting power struggles with palestinian terrorist/resistance elements forced Jordan to expel them. They had no duty to do nothing and watch Hamas etc take over their country. They did (and still do) however house refugees that are not part of armed groups.

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WRT Lebanon, you&#39;ll recall that although Sharon was found to be indirectly responsible (he should&#39;ve known better), it was the Lebanese Christians who were responsible for Sabra and Shatilla

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The massacres began on September 17, 1982, following a negotiated settlement whereby the PLO agreed to withdraw from Lebanon in return for U.S. guarantees for the safety of "law abiding Palestinian non-combatants left behind in Beirut." However, after the PLO evacuation (and the withdrawal of the multinational force that supervised the evacuation), the Israeli army encircled the camps of Beirut and allowed its allied right-wing Lebanese militia forces access to Sabra and Shatila. At the end of 48 hours, they left at least 1,500 people dead. The Israeli army looked on from the camp perimeter and provided logistical support to the assailants.

Do you think Isreali would have sacked him if there wasn&#39;t good evidence of the IDF&#39;s involvement? This is the country that does not prosecute soldiers for killing children and pensioners.

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Wrong. See Taba. See Arafat&#39;s statement 18 months later that he&#39;d accept it then

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Look, I know it&#39;s hard for Zionists to accept compromises in the name of peace but Arafat agreed only after he dropped the right of return issue - something he is not popular among palestinians for. He made the compromise, where are the Isreali compromises?

The map you provide just proves the point even further, with scores of settlements left in the proposed Palestinian land with each having a secure supply corridor. Meaning the IDF controlling huge part of the land. Also bear in mind that the settlements are all built on the best land with hugely better water supplies.

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It is impossible to know how many and which ones were kicked out and which left on their own in order to allow for conquering Arab armies

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Anyone who can prove residence at that time, or who&#39;s family can prove residence at that time. Why they left is irrelavent, they left due to wars between other nations that have nothing to do with them. Palestinians are not Jordanian, Egyptian or Syrian. They are the original occupiers of the land, along with jews, chrisitians, etc.

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Up to 800,000 Jews were kicked out of fled from Arab countries around the same time. There is no going back for them.

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800000? Where did you get that figure from? Same place as the 30000 no doubt. Either way, they have the right of return too and they also have a country called Isreal to go to that was created specifically for jews. You seem to be under the illusion I am some fanatical supporter of every arab nation in the region. Well I&#39;m not, and would argue for the jewish right of return as much as the palestinian one.

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the same for Israel. It would double their population.

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Refugees in transit are not the same as people returning to the land that is rightfully theirs. Isreal kicked them out and encouraged immigration from all over the world to fill up the areas vacated. It is for the Isreali&#39;s to deal with it&#39;s agression and it&#39;s consequences, not Jordan or anyone else. Isreali jews would probably have to accept lower standards of living, but frankly tough. Shouldn&#39;t sieze other people&#39;s land in the search for leibensraum then fill it with immigrants while you rely on the US to bolster your economy and military. Speaking of economy, that is where the palestinians have a hope. Isreal cannot afford more years of resistance by the palestinians, especially if the US cuts funding due to law and human rights violations.

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Again, see the UN&#39;s Convention on the Territorial Sea and Contiguous Zone. Egypt blocked Israeli access to oil and ordered the UN out of peacekeeping buffer zone. Egypt signed a defense agreement with Jordan. You bet Israel would strike first.

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The UN passed a resolution demanding free sea access and the return of the land. The free access is there, why is the land still occupied? On a side note, are you saying that the UK should invade Eire if Eire signs a defence agreement with France?

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Israel, however, did not strike first against Jordan and even told Hussein that they will not open that front if Jordan sayed out. Jordan struck first and created the occupied territory problem. If Jordan had not struck first, the West Bank would be a Palestinian state.

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Don&#39;t be stupid, this war was in 1967 - 20 years after the palestinian state should have been established. If Jordan hadn&#39;t invaded and provided Isreal with a pretext, the land would most likely now be in the same position as southern Lebanon or Gaza. An IDF free fire zone and self declared "security zone". You are also incorrect on the facts of the matter. Jordan had signed a defence pact with Egypt that was activated when Isreal attacked. Same as when the UK declared war on Germany due to the UK&#39;s Polish defence pact.

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It was in their hand, but 5 Arab countries decided to try and take the whole pie instead

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There you go again, we are talking about palestinian rights not the rights of Egyptians, Syrians, etc. Stick to the subject please. I condemn the prevarications by those countries too.

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Nothing prevented a Palestinian country being created in the West Bank from 1948-1967, though. Why wasn&#39;t it?

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Political adventurism on all sides (arab and Isreali) but not from any lack of will by the palestinians themselves. Why do you repeatedly hold the palestinians responsible for the actions of others?

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The person who started that rumour was a Brazilian university student who posted it on... guess where... indymedia&#33; Of course, it spread like wildfire among those who believe any anti-Israel junk that is spewed. I&#39;m not surprised that you believed it too

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I said apparently, never said it was gospel. Your link doesn&#39;t work btw so can&#39;t comment on that. I have heard people both for and against the whether it was fake. I also said that I know some palestinians celebrated it, and told you why. It&#39;s because the US finances the army and country that oppresses them.

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So why name Israel as the occupying force and not Jordan, who were occupying the West Bank or Egypt, who were occupying Gaza?

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Isreal occupied land pre 67 meant for the palestinians in the original UN resolution. I would also debate the issue with any Jordanian or Egyptian who wants to comment, but it seems there is only the pro Isreal people prepared to attempt a defence. Again you make the mistake of assuming I am pro Syria/Egypt/whoever.

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You know, this is silly. Neither will convince the other. Do I believe that Israel is 100% correct? No. But put in the situation in which it finds itself, I think it&#39;s done about as expected. Israelis, contrary to what you might think are not inherently evil and neither are Palestinians.

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I agree, so we shouldn&#39;t let extremists on both sides dictate the agenda. The Arab League has offered an equitable peace agreement but Isreal refuses to respond. If you are Isreali, press for it&#39;s acceptance. Or maybe for the recent plan brokered in Europe.

I disagree with your defence of Isreali actions of course. There is no excuse for the oppression inflicted on the palestinians.

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Already, more Iraqi civilians have been killed in the past year than Palestinians in the 3 years. So if Israel is targetting civilians, what the hell are Americans doing? Taking better aim?

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Iraq is a war zone, the occupied territories are a process of attrition to occupy land over a long period. There is little comparison. If the Isreali&#39;s set up a puppet admin over a new palestinian state, it would be more comparable.

Is semantics your last defense?

1) So you now have stopped arguing that Arafat was not provided with a strong police force. If Israel didn&#39;t arm the Pal police you&#39;d complain that they weren&#39;t serious about giving them the ability to fight Hamas. Now that you see that Israel did arm them, it&#39;s unhelpful to provide the Pal police firearms.

From 1993 to 2001, the Pal police was stable, armed, and had a solid infrastructure that was unimpeded to act. Arafat was free to roam and act as leader. He sat on his ass instead and watched Hamas.

Oslo called for disamament of anybody not in the police force. He ignored it for 8 years before Israel finally targeted Arafat&#39;s police infrastructure.

Deal.

If Arafat would clearly love to shut down Hamas as you say, why the fuck didn&#39;t he?? Why not call Hamas and Islamic Jihad "illegal", as Israel immediately did wrt Kahane Chai after one single terrorist act&#33;

2)

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If you keep saying "palestinians" when you mean Hamas etc I will be forced to refer to all Isreali&#39;s as Kach supporters and ethnic cleansers who approve of mass murder. Deal?

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When a majority of Israelis start supporting Kahane Chai&#39;s actions, I&#39;ll be glad to link the two together. With most Palestinians supporting Hamas&#39; suicide bombs, I&#39;ll refer to the bombings as being Palestninan. Just like how you would refer to IDF actions as Israeli. Deal?



3) WRT Imad Al-Faluji&#39;s quote. :D

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So they prepared to continue the struggle if the US failed to pressure Isreal. Sounds fair enough to me.

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So you&#39;ll admit that Arafat purposely started the intifadah but you need to add "only because of Israeli & American stubborness". Unreal.

Here&#39;s a clue. If you are in good faith peace negotiations, you do not plan a war to use a counter point. That is not good faith. Arafat did not like the Camp David agreement but did not even provide a counter-view. He picked up and left and started a war in which his cowardly police rounded up kids and brought them to the front lines tothrow rocks & molotov cocktails while his police stood in the back and fired.

You condone this? Unreal.


4)

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Nope, I said the site (note, not page) I got the info from has UN docs, For the last time, no it wasn&#39;t. Here&#39;s a clue - the original data is from a human rights group.

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With all due respect, who cares what the site has? You copied an article that uses extremely biased sources as its references.

Post a link to your water article.

Here&#39;s where your article was found.

http://desip.igc.org/TheftOfWater.html

Please point out the UN references. Thanks.

5) The territories are not annexed. Israeli law does not apply there as long as there is war. Just as UK & US troops do not treat Iraqis as citizens of their own nations. Arabs within Israel are equals and protected as such by Israeli law. As long as violence continues, everyone in the territories is in a bad situation but Israel does not practice apartheid as described here. When there is no violence, Israel withdraws and allows the PA to take over rule. Israel wants no part of rule over the Palestinians and has been trying to unload the burden for many years, in contrast to South Africa.

The fact that you need to use that as partof your argument displays its weakness. Just as you need to use phrases like "Jewish owned media".


6)

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The Arabs are just complying with the UN, why aren&#39;t the Isreali&#39;s?

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As pointed out, the Arab "offer" demands more from Israel than UN 242. Sorry bud.

You did state that the Arab countries have recognized Israel. Now you say that they offered recognition and are thus compliance with 242. By the same logic, Israel is also in compliance since they have returned "territories", Sinai.

Stop backing up on your words.

6) Your proof is where? The Btselem site (which is down right now so I doubt you checked the site since I posted) lists the dead as 4500 and 480. Unless of course you are using a different date arbitrarily. From what date are you counting?

Dude, google has a cached version of all websites. My stats are 2004 from Btselem. :o

7)

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I count resistance fighters as those civilians.

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Sad, really.

8) I love the way you explain Black September. So pleasant. If you want to put the number at 10 000 dead Palestinians, fine.

"They had no duty to do nothing and watch Hamas etc take over their country."

Sure. Condone the mass murder of 10 000 Palestinians. But Israel is supposed to stand by and watch as Hamas etc kills civilians in Israel and vows to continue until Israel is no more.

9)

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Don&#39;t be stupid, this war was in 1967 - 20 years after the palestinian state should have been established. If Jordan hadn&#39;t invaded and provided Isreal with a pretext, the land would most likely now be in the same position as southern Lebanon or Gaza.

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Oh? How so?

So you now admit that Jordan invaded Israel through the West Bank. At least we&#39;re getting somewhere.

10)

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He made the compromise, where are the Isreali compromises?

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If Taba was acceptable, he waited a bit too long to decide. 18 months?

WRT the Taba map. Those setlements are existing settlements that would be gone or part of sovereign Pal territory. Have another look.

http://www.fmep.org/maps/2001/taba.jpg

11) Pals celebrating 9/11.

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I said apparently, never said it was gospel. Your link doesn&#39;t work btw so can&#39;t comment on that. I have heard people both for and against the whether it was fake

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Why not research it before using it in an argument?

Snopes seems to be down too but here&#39;s the cached version:

http://216.239.57.104/search?q=cache:K9fOL...&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

Anyways, like I said before. This is tiring. You&#39;re now at the point where you&#39;re backtacking and changing your story. "I never said it was true, I said &#39;apparently&#39;... I never said the article I copied used UN documents as sources, I said the website has some". First, it&#39;s "Arafat&#39;s police wasn&#39;t strong", then it&#39;s "too many guns supplied to Araft&#39;s police". First it&#39;s "Israel started the 1967 war", then it&#39;s "Jordan struck because blah blah".

Yes, the UN called for free passage of Israei ships. Too bad Egypt didn&#39;t give it. They blocked Israeli passage to oil, forced UN peacekeeping troops out, signed defense treaties with neighbouring Israeli enemies, and Nasser screamed about how prepared he was for war where he would "throw the Jews into the sea."

Of course, you find a way to fault Israel for a pre-emptive strike against Egypt. At least you&#39;ll now admit that jordan opened the West Bank front. At least.

Whatever. Again, if you want to find common ground, lemme know. If you want to argue semantics, find someone else. I&#39;m gonna listen to hobbes&#39; advice.

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When there is no violence, Israel withdraws and allows the PA to take over rule. Israel wants no part of rule over the Palestinians and has been trying to unload the burden for many years, in contrast to South Africa.

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This is the biggest load of shit yet&#33; When did they withdraw? <_<

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This is the biggest load of shit yet&#33;&nbsp; When did they withdraw?&nbsp;

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Are you for real?

"Israel has reoccupied the West Bank since June 2002"

http://www.islamonline.net/English/News/20...article21.shtml

"Hebron became the seventh of eight main West Bank towns and cities on Tuesday to come under the re-occupation of the Israeli military, which re-entered the Palestinian territories last week when two suicide bombings in Jerusalem killed 26 Israelis."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Sto...745200,00.html

"For the first time since the implementation of the Oslo accords in 1994, Israeli forces reentered Palestinian territory."

http://www.freedomhouse.org/research/freew...anauthority.htm

"Despite American criticism, Israel on Wednesday briefly re-entered the Gaza Strip and leveled a Palestinian police station on territory granted to Yasser Arafat &#39;s government in peace agreements."

http://www.ain-al-yaqeen.com/issues/...27/feat9en.htm

"Israel reoccupied a portion of the Gaza strip"

http://www.arabicnews.com/ansub/Daily/Day/...2001041726.html

"One month after Israel reoccupied villages and towns in the West Bank"

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGMD...open&of=ENG-ISR

"Israel re-occupied the Palestinian territories"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/worl...view/israel.stm

"King demands Israel withdraw troops from reoccupied areas"

http://www.jordanembassyus.org/04012002001.htm

"Israel reoccupied the Palestinian territories"

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/ED8...9274D510D99.htm


Let me know if you need any more, ok?

Withdrawing means getting the fuck out&#33; Moving the settlers and returning the 46% of the West Bank you occupy. It does not mean pulling the IDF back a few K&#39;s&#33; When will you people understand?

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Originally posted by Billy_Dean@8 February 2004 - 08:47
Withdrawing means getting the fuck out&#33; Moving the settlers and returning the 46% of the West Bank you occupy. It does not mean pulling the IDF back a few K&#39;s&#33; When will you people understand?

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Considering that the whole area is just a few km&#39;s, your scenario doesn&#39;t hold water.

As for when they will get the fuck out completely, the answer is when Arafat shows that he will take charge and not allow free reign to those who will continue with their terrorism against Israel. They withdrew completly from more than half the territories, put Arafat in charge in more than that and ended up with more suicide bombings than before. Not a good showing.

Pretty simple, actually.

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Originally posted by putty@8 February 2004 - 18:16
Pretty simple, actually.

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Yeah, for a bunch of child murderers, house demolishers, and illegal settlers. What&#39;s your excuse? <_<

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Originally posted by putty@8 February 2004 - 09:16
They withdrew completly from more than half the territories, put Arafat in charge in more than that and ended up with more suicide bombings than before. Not a good showing.

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The terrorism deminished during the slow withdrawal of the Israelis and the establishment of a Palestinian Authority (no one can stop them all, i do not think Arafat is a superman even if you do...he did condemn publicly, terrorist actions when they occurred)

The establishment of a country is not, as you seem to think, an overnight process.

The current violence flared when Sharon stopped, unilaterally, the above process...this is also when the popularity of Hamas started to rise over the PLO. Im not surprised...they were finally getting a country, and then those hopes were dashed...if id been there i would have been more than a little miffed, to say the least.


The bombings will increase at election time, as the terrorists do not want peace....Hamas is a religious fundamentalist organisation, peace in the area would deminish its recruitement and overall aim.

Arafat on the other hand requires peace..PLO is a nationalist organisation.... and he makes more money with peace than with unrest..see, I know he is no saint...he skims &#036;100,000&#39;s from the palestinians, im sure...


The Arab population as a whole, in various countries, have their own beliefs and so do their leaders...usually the media therefore reports a trade-off in those countries. I could well believe that they do not really want peace in the area, at the same time as paying lip service to it...hence "reports" designed to push the Israeli electorate to the Right.

The fact that directing the emotions of the populations towards Israel also keeps them from looking at their own leadership is also a bonus....



Sharon is a War Criminal, pure and simple.

You may wish to see the evidence that was collected for the Belgium Trial before it was halted, and ask why a certain witness had a fatal accident a couple of days after telling the world he would testify... This is without pointing out he was also the commander of the infamous Unit 101 in the 1950&#39;s

Arafat, i have already said is a murderer...however he is needed, Sharon isnt..he just makes things worse.

He wont be the 1st terrorist to be head of State: Begin, Shamir and Sharon himself come to my lips straight away as examples...

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So you now have stopped arguing that Arafat was not provided with a strong police force

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No I haven&#39;t, the proof being that he hasn&#39;t got one. The IDF keeps bombing it.

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If Israel didn&#39;t arm the Pal police you&#39;d complain that they weren&#39;t serious about giving them the ability to fight Hamas. Now that you see that Israel did arm them, it&#39;s unhelpful to provide the Pal police firearms.

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I said it would be more helpful if the IDF stopped bombing the PLO and it&#39;s police.

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From 1993 to 2001, the Pal police was stable, armed, and had a solid infrastructure that was unimpeded to act. Arafat was free to roam and act as leader. He sat on his ass instead and watched Hamas

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We have already established your extremely shaky grasp of history. The occupied territories were not any of those things, as shown by UN resolutions and human rights violations.

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Oslo called for disamament of anybody not in the police force. He ignored it for 8 years before Israel finally targeted Arafat&#39;s police infrastructure.

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The IDF hasn&#39;t stopped targetting the PLO and it&#39;s infrastructure since it was formed. The EU is still pissed at all the equipment the IDF has destroyed that they paid for.

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If Arafat would clearly love to shut down Hamas as you say, why the fuck didn&#39;t he?? Why not call Hamas and Islamic Jihad "illegal", as Israel immediately did wrt Kahane Chai after one single terrorist act&#33;

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He has declared attacks by Hamas on civilians in Isreal terrorist acts, but he can&#39;t effectively ban them as YOU KEEP BOMBING HIS INFRASTRUCTURE. Hamas takes up the slack (providing food and education etc) and gets more popularity. Leave the occupied territories, set up a palestinian state and let him get on with it.

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When a majority of Israelis start supporting Kahane Chai&#39;s actions, I&#39;ll be glad to link the two together

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Are the palestinians brutally occupying your land while terrorising your people? Nope. Resistance to the IDF is necessary, and a majority supports it. Once you leave their land, only a minority will support continuing violence - the same as a minority of Isreali&#39;s believe in the ethnic cleansing of all palestinians by killing them if necessary.

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So you&#39;ll admit that Arafat purposely started the intifadah but you need to add "only because of Israeli & American stubborness". Unreal

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Arafat didn&#39;t start the intifada as such, he was preparing to fight his end of it. Hamas don&#39;t take orders from him and they started major operations again too. Lets reprint that quote since you are ignoring it -

The leadership had invested all of its efforts in political and diplomatic channels in order to fix the flaws in the negotiations and the peace process, but to no avail. It encountered Israeli stubbornness and continuous renunciation of the (Palestinian) rights

Isreali stubborness - refusal to remove all the settlements and allow the right of return to people whose land was stolen.

Renunciation of Palestinian rights - not allowing the right of return and issues such as access to water and human rights.

The PLO tried for a peace that it&#39;s people would accept but Isreal wasn&#39;t moving a mm from it&#39;s position.

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If you are in good faith peace negotiations

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Thats the problem, the Isreali&#39;s have never acted in good faith so the PLO and others prepare for their refusal of rights and illegal demands.

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You condone this?

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I condone resistance to agression. I do not condone children and civilians being killed. You, however, have stated on numerous occasions that you are quite happy to see children shot in the head on the way to school, or 95 year old women to be murdered while sitting in a car. I am sure you also condone the missile attack yesterday that killed a 10 year old boy, critically injuring 3 others. None of them are terrorists.

It is your and your denial of people&#39;s rights that is unreal. Interviews with Isreali&#39;s who survived the Holocaust are filled with disbelief at what Isreal is doing in their name.

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With all due respect, who cares what the site has?

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You apparently. You&#39;ve been harping on about it for ages.

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You copied an article that uses extremely biased sources as its references.

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You still have no idea what article, by who, and on what website I took it from.

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Here&#39;s where your article was found.

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It&#39;s found on a few places on the web. The web is like that you know.

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Please point out the UN references. Thanks.

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I said the site I got it from used UN docs, govt reports, human rights reports, etc. No matter how much you keep lying about it, it won&#39;t change the content of my original post. Go read it again and save yourself further embarassment. Sticking to this issue just shows your lack of any real argument on the contents of those reports. Are you denying the figures?

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The territories are not annexed. Israeli law does not apply there as long as there is war

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Isreali law is completely irrelavent. Victims of occupation, POW&#39;s, everyone has basic human rights recognised by various UN Conventions. Isreal does not adhere to just about any of them.

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Just as UK & US troops do not treat Iraqis as citizens of their own nations.

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If an Iraqi comes to the UK and gets a UK passport he is totally British. The underlying assumption in your statement is testament to your racism.

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Arabs within Israel are equals and protected as such by Israeli law

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I have shown that in land, water, health, human rights, etc etc that they are not. Please prove my figures wrong.

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As long as violence continues, everyone in the territories is in a bad situation but Israel does not practice apartheid as described here

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Any non zealot reading the definition can see that Isreal violates them. I won&#39;t attempt to convince you though as you condone mass killings and oppressive regimes.

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When there is no violence, Israel withdraws and allows the PA to take over rule. Israel wants no part of rule over the Palestinians and has been trying to unload the burden for many years, in contrast to South Africa.

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Isreal has never withdrawn. Please show us a time when all Isreali settlements were removed and the IDF was behind &#39;67 borders.

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The fact that you need to use that as partof your argument displays its weakness. Just as you need to use phrases like "Jewish owned media".

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Weakness? Heh. Like I said, I leave it to the non zealots to make up their own minds. You have shown yourself to be beneath contempt with your views on killing civilians. I have also never said "Jewish owned media". I referenced "Isreali media". Something quite different, but obviously not enough for you to attack me for anti semitism so you have to invent a quote.

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As pointed out, the Arab "offer" demands more from Israel than UN 242. Sorry bud

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Both sides have to make compromises. The Arabs have (no right of return, something which made Arafat very unpopular and strengthens Hamas if Isreal offers nothing) but Isreal won&#39;t. The offer of normalised relations is there but Isreal won&#39;t take it. This of course ignores the fact that 242 was weakened under Isreali pressure on it&#39;s US allies. Why are you not arguing for Iraq to have kept some of Kuwait? Or Germany to keep some of Poland and the Czech Republic? There must be no legitimisation of wars of conquest.

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Stop backing up on your words.

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I&#39;m not, except in your dreams maybe. The Arab League has recognised Isreals right to exist if Isreal will rejoin the law abiding nations of the world. As it stands now, Isreal is a rogue state comparable to many other states that the West has refused to recognise. The offer is there though, but zionists won&#39;t accept it as it interferes with the plan for a Greater Isreal.

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Sad, really.

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Yes it is. Tragic that ordinary people are placed in a situation where they have to fight to regain their freedom.

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I love the way you explain Black September. So pleasant. If you want to put the number at 10 000 dead Palestinians, fine.

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Why thank you. The 10000 dead (which is for both sides combined, not palestinians) is actually from a Zionist website as I wanted to find the largest number I could to show the total fiction of your 30000 figure.

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Sure. Condone the mass murder of 10 000 Palestinians. But Israel is supposed to stand by and watch as Hamas etc kills civilians in Israel and vows to continue until Israel is no more.

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Again, 10000 is dead on all sides according to the most rabid zionist site. There were mostly terrorists involved (Hamas and it&#39;s forebears) who were fighting both the Jordanians and the Isreali&#39;s. They had no right to "invade" Jordan like that and Jordan defended itself as was it&#39;s right. Other states tried to negiotiate a solution but failed.

Now was Jordan entirely wrong in what it did? Nope, but it wasn&#39;t entirely right either. I have already said I am not a cheerleader for every arab state.

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So you now admit that Jordan invaded Israel through the West Bank. At least we&#39;re getting somewhere

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Yes they did, due to a defence pact with Egypt. Isreal invaded Egypt so the pact was triggered. If Isreal hadn&#39;t attacked Isreal, no Jordanian attack. Same as the UK declaring war on Germany when it invaded Poland. Would you rather the UK had just left Poland (and all the jews in the east) to their fate?

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If Taba was acceptable, he waited a bit too long to decide. 18 months?&nbsp;

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Oh do pay attention and stop repeating the same questions over and over. Just ignoring the answers won&#39;t wash with anyone as they can read all the posts.

Arafat dropped the demand for the right of return, and said he would be willing to accept the agreement. A compromise, look that word up ok? It made him very unpopular and was one of the few statemanlike acts of his recent career. Isreal thanked him by continuing the bombing and killing.

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Those setlements are existing settlements that would be gone or part of sovereign Pal territory

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The Palestinians don&#39;t want them part of PLO territory, though in reality it would be Isreali soil guarded by the IDF, and with the best of the road network earmarked as safe routes. This ignores the fact that the settlements are on the best land with the best water supply. You have to empty ALL of the settlements and get the hell off their land.

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Why not research it before using it in an argument?

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You used it as an argument, not me. I made a passing comment on it and pointed out that the fact they celebrated was completely irrelavent. The US finances the people killing them daily, you bet some people liked the fact that the US got a small taste of what that is like.

For the idiots in the back, of course I condemn the WTC attacks.

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Anyways, like I said before. This is tiring. You&#39;re now at the point where you&#39;re backtacking and changing your story

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Hahaha, god you are funny. You haven&#39;t addressed any of the main points and instead use your time asking the same questions again and again when people (not just me) have answered them repeatedly. Your blindness is only matched by your ignorance of the facts. You odious racism is just another unfortunate component of your "arguments".

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"I never said it was true, I said &#39;apparently&#39;

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Look up the word apparently ok? Some of use language with a purpose, rather than just spewing out random words.

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"never said the article I copied used UN documents as sources, I said the website has some"

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As I did, here is the quote (top post on page 5) - That latter site takes it&#39;s info from UN docs, international papers, govt papers, you name it

Now are you going to deny what is in front of your face? I know you appear to be a master of self deception, but that will take some effort.

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First, it&#39;s "Arafat&#39;s police wasn&#39;t strong", then it&#39;s "too many guns supplied to Araft&#39;s police".

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I said the guns were not the most helpful thing to give them, stopping killing them and blowing things up would be a better help. Quote - I said help of any note. Adding 20000 guns to an unstable region is not exactly helpful. Try not demolishing police stations, shooting policemen, and the rest of the box of tricks used by the IDF to stop a palestinians infrastructure.

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First it&#39;s "Israel started the 1967 war", then it&#39;s "Jordan struck because blah blah".

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Isreal did start the war, with airstrikes. Egypt then activated it&#39;s defence pact with Jordan. Note - defence pact. No Isreali attack on Egypt, no Jordanian retaliation.

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At least you&#39;ll now admit that jordan opened the West Bank front. At least.

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I never denied it. It was opened due to the defenc ... ah well you know it by now :)

Quote:

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Whatever. Again, if you want to find common ground, lemme know. If you want to argue semantics, find someone else. I&#39;m gonna listen to hobbes&#39; advice.

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Despite a few good things in your posts (recognizing Isreal is not always right), if you continue to condone the oppression and killing of children and other civilians then I am happy to not find common ground with you. Much as I am happy to not have common ground with Nazi&#39;s.

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They withdrew completly from more than half the territories, put Arafat in charge in more than that and ended up with more suicide bombings than before. Not a good showing

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Incorrect. The greatest rise in deaths by suicide bombings is under Sharon, who has never offered anything to the Palestinians - including any kind of withdrawal. That includes removing all the settlements.

Side note, you notice Sharon mentions removing the settlements just before his interview with the police on fraud charges? I guess he is doing a Barak, offer something you have no intention of following through on so you can say later - "but we offered this&#33;". I imagine he will be out of office fairly soon thank god.

A recap then.

You refuse to address the water, land, human rights, murder of children, the settlements, jewish terrorism in the runup to 48, etc etc. The sentiment of most of the replies to this thread from others is that you are making a very poor case and ignoring the evidence. I would have to concur.

The fact that you blatently lie about quotes, while ignoring the main points of posts, means it is probably pointless discussing anything with you.

Oh for crying out loud...

Your quote:

Quote:

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That site has plagarised and changed the words of the site I took the info from. That latter site takes it&#39;s info from UN docs, international papers, govt papers, you name it. I am quite happy to say that some of my post is directly from the latter site, you will notice it is all factual data though and backed up by relavant source papers

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Post a fucking link to your article that takes its info from "UN docs, international papers, govt papers, you name it".

I found the exact article written by Ronald Bleier of IGC. I feel no need to debate numbers taken from his biased opinion sources, just as I wouldn&#39;t ask you to debate sites that use extremist opinion sources saying that the UK & US are attempting to colonize Iraq.

If it isn&#39;t neither http://www.networkideas.org/themes/privati...18_Ramallah.htm or http://desip.igc.org/TheftOfWater.html and actually is from a site that uses your relevant sources, then post it&#33;

Jeez.

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The IDF hasn&#39;t stopped targetting the PLO and it&#39;s infrastructure since it was formed.

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Palestinian police force members killed:

1993: 0
1994: 1
1995: 4
1996: 13
1997: 0
1998: 0
1999: 0
2000: 2

Btselem numbers. Kindly find someone else to lie to.

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Arafat didn&#39;t start the intifada as such, he was preparing to fight his end of it.

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Excuse me? :lol:

His own communications minister admitted that Arafat planned the intifadah but if you say he didn&#39;t start it, ok. We believe you.

"This Intifada was planned in advance, ever since President Arafat’s return from the Camp David negotiations, where he turned the table upside down on President Clinton."

"We will return to the early days of the PLO, to the sixties and seventies; ‘the Fatah Hawks’ will return" Airplane hijackings and murder of Olympic athletes, here we come. Very smart thing for Arafat&#39;s minister to threaten.

How would it sound for a Sharon minister to say "Kahane Chai will return"? No, don&#39;t tell me.

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Isreal has never withdrawn

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"Area A contained more than 80% of the Palestinian West Bank population" http://www.nad-plo.org/hborders.php

Yes, realize that it&#39;s a PLO link before you question it. In case you don&#39;t know what Area A is, it&#39;s the area that Israel withdrew from completely as part part of Oslo. It&#39;s the area that the PA had full control over wrt social services, and security.

So from 1993, 80% of Palestinian population was in 100% control by the PA police. but...

Israeli civilians killed within Israel:

1991: 8
1992: 6
1993: 3 Oslo signed
1994: 47
1995: 9
1996: 38
1997: 25

Why were the suicide bombers not stopped? Why was Hamas not declared illegal? Why were they not arrested as required by Oslo? Israel did arrest and illegalize Kahane Chai.

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The 10000 dead [Palestinians killed by Jordan in 1 month] (which is for both sides combined, not palestinians)

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1970: Black September. King Hussein of Jordan massacred tens of thousands of Palestinians
http://www.greenleft.org.au/back/2000/425/425p18b.htm

- Lefty socialist source

"Under him we lost 20,000 people in Jordan during the Black September massacres of 1970"

- Palestinian source
http://www.themodernreligion.com/ter...c-whyhero.html

the Jordanians
massacred 18,000 Palestinians in 12 days in “Black September”

www.christian-witness.org/israel/jp_nzoct02.html

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10000 is dead on all sides according to the most rabid zionist site. There were mostly terrorists involved

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Are you sure that 10,000 deaths combined was the highest number you could find???

Which one of these is the rabidly zionist site?

Are you sure that it was mostly terrorists that were massacred? Are you calling Palestinian civilians terrorists?

I&#39;m surprised. No, I&#39;m not. You&#39;d argue anything just for the point of arguing.

I wonder where your canton argument went...

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You, however, have stated on numerous occasions that you are quite happy to see children shot in the head on the way to school, or 95 year old women to be murdered while sitting in a car

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Is that really the best you can do now? Is this how you convince yourself that those who disagree with you are boogiemen? Must be nice world you live in where everyone around you thinks the same as you and anyone you come across on that bad internet who doesn&#39;t agree with you is "happy to see children shot in the head". Pathetic.

Until you show me where I stated this, have fun with yourself.

When you lie about what I say, you show everyone that your argument is going nowhere and are now resorting to the desperate. I said this not once, but "on numerous occasions". Should be easy enough to show.

You are not to be reasoned with.