Oh dear, we'd better go back then, last I heard was that women were still not allowed to vote, or hold political office...Quote:
Originally Posted by Busyman
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Oh dear, we'd better go back then, last I heard was that women were still not allowed to vote, or hold political office...Quote:
Originally Posted by Busyman
Sorry; but if I become a member of a group that has helped the Iraq economy, would that make my views valid? Hell; I have given over two hundred hours of Community service to the Red Cross, who is active in Iraq...does that count? It's all subsidiary though, because I do not really care what your actions are; I accept your views, even if I disagree with them. (oh, BTW; for being such a tolerant group; why is there such a monopoly on ideas?)Quote:
Originally Posted by scroff
I also don't agree of your poopooing of 400,000 dead... dead innocents by a dictator who would only become stronger, especially when his sadistic sons were to come to power. Again, I don't care if you disagree with my stance; but to call it invalid based on the lack of action is idiotic.
Here's the crux;
Your views of my stance is startlingly similar with my views on yours, Yet; I have not sunk to flinging the same sh*t you throw at me. Not so long ago, there was actually intelligent and insightful discussion around this board...Honestly, I actually looked forward to reading vid's posts because there was a decent chance Ild learn something. I don't know whether it is the lack of presence of j2, clocker, SJ, and others (all who I still would look to for smart posts) or what, but the dialogue on this board has quickly gone into the toilet with a few choice people leading the way. If a change is not to happen soon you will find the current trend of smart people holding insight and minority viewpoints deserting this board come full circle, quickly leaving you to blather uselessly amongst yourselves.
FYI: These sentiments are held by more then me.
so I guess you don't like some of the responses you recieve.Quote:
Originally Posted by spinningfreemanny
As to 400,000 dead...we DID NOT go into Iraq because of human rights issues. That fact seems to get lost here. Did Bush make a case for that, or did he throw around talk about mushroom clouds? don't read what isn't there.
I think everyone has something to offer in terms of views and intelligent viewpoints, Manny..even you.( not said sarcastically). There are obviously strong feelings expressed in the world of politics, as was so obviously just witnessed in the campaign season, and the huge rift between right and left. You might not like how opinions are expressed, and I don't find anyone "dolling up" their presentation..and that includes you too, manny. (again...not said sarcastically)
No more than they already are. I never said my views were more valid than yours because I was a member of VfP. You asked me if I was willing to go "ease casualty loss, rebuild Iraqi infactructure, or possibly fight the U.S. forces in Iraq?" so I told you what I do. No big deal. That remark about fighting the US forces was pretty stupid though, I must say. Just because I don't want them killing Iraqis doesn't mean I want to kill them.Quote:
Originally Posted by spinningfreemanny
You asked me what I was willing to do. In fact, you even spoke about "relinquishments", to which I replied that I have already done my time, and stated it was your turn. I notice you ignored that one.Quote:
... because I do not really care what your actions are; I accept your views, even if I disagree with them. (oh, BTW; for being such a tolerant group; why is there such a monopoly on ideas?)
BTW... What ever gave you the idea I was a member of any "tolerant group"?
I'm not sure where you got this from. Go back and re-read my reply to you.Quote:
I also don't agree of your poopooing of 400,000 dead... dead innocents by a dictator who would only become stronger, especially when his sadistic sons were to come to power. Again, I don't care if you disagree with my stance; but to call it invalid based on the lack of action is idiotic.
If it was wrong for Hussein to kill 400,000 people, what makes it right for us to kill more? I tend to agree that the lack of action on the part of the US, the UK (both of whom were bombing Iraq regularly for the last decade, under the guise of a "humanitarian crises", Hussein actually controlled only the third of Iraq around Baghdad, you know, like Rumsfeld said, north east south and west of Baghdad somewhere) and the UN was atrocious, but I don't agree that we needed to kill more.
What shit is that? Asking you if you plan to join the service of your country is giving you shit? I'm confused, Manny.Quote:
Here's the crux;
Your views of my stance is startlingly similar with my views on yours, Yet; I have not sunk to flinging the same sh*t you throw at me.
Well, then, I suggest you report them to a moderator post haste!Quote:
but the dialogue on this board has quickly gone into the toilet with a few choice people leading the way.
I don't think manny gets it.Quote:
Originally Posted by ruthie
Manny, when you say things like "we went in to stop the killing of innocents", you sound like a Republican lapdog.
The dialogue hasn't gone down. It's just that the bullshit has gone up especially when looking in hindsight.
Step outside of what they say in your Republican youth groups.
Your arguments that that was not the main reason,try as you might, does not invalidate the point.
Hell, even Kerry said knowing what he knows now, he would invade Iraq...
If you much less see another Republican youth, let me know... :unsure:
Kerry never said he would invade Iraq knowing what he knows. He said knowing what he knows he would have authorized the use of force, believing that the threat of force was necessary to negotiating with Iraq and that it was the correct authority for a president to have. He did not agree with invading Iraq before the inspectors were allowed to do thier jobs.Quote:
Originally Posted by spinningfreemanny
"Yes, I would have voted for the authority. I believe it's the right authority for a president to have. But I would have used that authority as I have said throughout this campaign, effectively. I would have done this very differently from the way President Bush has." (CNN's "Inside Politics," 8/9/04)
Uh...yes it does.Quote:
Originally Posted by spinningfreemanny
"Let's invade ruthless dictator number 15. It has to be done." :dry:
What's funny is that was Bush's only reason. Trust me, he came about with "he's ruthless dictator" after the fact.
It amazes me that certain followers think only one way and that way is as a follower.
The brain that God gave them is wasted when plain-as-day bullshit is dropped right on their face and they don't smell it. :lol: :lol:
I actually have some sort of respect (not much) for those that know it's bullshit and have some sort of agenda behind giving the bullshit a kickstand.
But others are just flat out idiot followers.
Blather?
I am aghast, I thought I was quite coherent. :huh:
:shifty: Now some of my post apple posts....
Don't worry about it, Your blather is always quite coherent. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Biggles
I saw this and thought it might be relevant to your chicken hawk discussion
The guardian did an article today on Siegfried Sassoon (British War poet during WW1), because an early war work of his has recently been discovered:
for sassoon thats a remarkably upbeat assessment, most likely because he hadn't been sent to the front yet. To contrast with his later work:Quote:
Because We Are Going
Because we are going from our wonted places
To be task-ridden by one shattering Aim,
And terror hides in all our laughing faces
That had no will to die, no thirst for fame,
Hear our last word. In Hell we seek for Heaven;
The agony of wounds shall make us clean;
And the failures of our sloth shall be forgiven
When Silence holds the songs that might have been,
And what we served remains, superb, unshaken,
England, our June of blossom that shines above
Disastrous War; for whom we have forsaken
Ways that were rich and gleeful and filled with love.
Thus are we heroes; since we might not choose
To live where Honour gave us life to lose.
Siegfried Sassoon (1915)
Quote:
SUICIDE IN THE TRENCHES
I knew a simple soldier boy
Who grinned at life in empty joy,
Slept soundly through the lonesome dark,
And whistled early with the lark.
In winter trenches, cowed and glum,
With crumps and lice and lack of rum,
He put a bullet through his brain.
No one spoke of him again.
You smug-faced crowds with kindling eye
Who cheer when soldier lads march by,
Sneak home and pray you'll never know
The hell where youth and laughter go.
By: Siegfried Sassoon (1918)
Obviously WW1 for 3 years would be a lot more harrowing than a shortish term in Iraq, but I thought the shift in perception was food for thought.
Sassoon and Owen make for grim reading - but they have more to say than most and they walked the walk rather than just talked the talk. Owen, as I recall died on the front line.
I think "Dulce est" is one of the most graphic pieces on the inhumanity of life on the front line.
Thank you for those, ilw. I have mixed feelings of anger and sorrow when I read them. I don't know how people will feel about this post, as I continue with the poetry, but this is a poem from a man I met during one of the VfP rallys in New York City... it seems to capture the feeling of being on the "victorious" side of over whelming fire power
Free Fire Zone
Trembling and sobbing
you crawl out of your hole
brown grime encrusted on your face,
brittle white hair touched gently by wind.
And begging you fall down on your knees
and raise your wizened hands in supplication
to what stands mute in us, and cold to all your needs -
which kicks and prods you back upon your feet.
You stumble, dazed, between the holes
into the empty field beyond
and fall, and turn, and fall and cry again at us...
And then as flame comes blazing to engulf you from the sky
I wonder why
you ever bothered
ever being born.
--Serigo
Cpl, rifleman, 2nd (marine) Combined Action Gp 67-68
Two Purple Hearts
for the curious... Dulce et Decorum estQuote:
Originally Posted by Biggles
thanks for the cue, Biggles