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Re: forgetting your roots
@ hobbes
I would take more heed of the indivisible part of the arguement if we weren't so divided. We have different laws and even different punishments in the different states. We have divided attitudes based on location.
when we do come together it is something special..... i do sometimes wish that the something special could be the norm.
@ all
I do believe that to become a citizen one should have a reasonable vocabulary in the official tounge and the pledge should be said in that language.
This thread is about the foriegn language week...not every week and that's why i made it about forgetting our roots and that the boy was being disrespectful to his history.
That said there is no law that requires the pledge to be said...just that one has to be respectful. If someone stands and says the pledge in a different language alongside those using English i wouldn't see that as being disrespectful because it is the pledge that matters and not the language it is said in. We had the debate a while back about saying it without using the words "under God"....I doubt many would suggest that the whole pledge should be boycotted just because one doesn't believe in God and wishes to omitt those two words
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Re: forgetting your roots
Quote:
Originally Posted by SnnY
They likened it to hanging a cross upside down in a church ffs.
Do you know how wrong some people think that would be?
In essence they look down on all other languages used in the USA and that includes the official non-english ones.
The impression one might get from that is that they view people who don't have english as their first language as being of lesser worth.
I suppose on the cross issue, yes, that would give an impression of complete intolerance. I, personally, didn't give it a thought. I tend to ignore religious comparisons because religion is a very personal and private matter for me.
That too could very well be true.
Like I said, I don't agree, I don't have to agree. I am not defending nor condoning their actions. I am a moderate and strive to understand all sides of an issue. I would like to ask them why. What is it truly that upset them about this? And, what is it that truly upsets you?
I was not so moderate once. I saw in them what I used to feel when I was a teenager, only, my reaction was not about the Pledge or being an American, my intolerance and misplaced hatred was for homosexuals. Maybe in time and with luck the boy will change his feelings.
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Re: forgetting your roots
Quote:
Originally Posted by j2k4
I understand how you might have felt assuaged and comforted by a recitation of same in your native language (which would be what, BTW?), but I hope at this remove you can likewise appreciate what may have presented to you as a "club" to which you weren't entitled full "membership" until you had passed muster by demonstrating a genuine interest in belonging, which you have done by learning the language and (I assume) becoming naturalized.
I need to apologize to you j2k4. I read your post and was confused, until I reread mine and saw the weird double negative. I am American. My grandparents and great grandparents emmigrated here in the early 20th century. In a way, I am the melting pot. Italian, Greek, German, Sweedish, Polish and Jewish, what a mess eh?
And you are correct, it is about international language week, I used 'melting pot' to stress that it shouldn't have mattered.
Whether born here or naturalized, American is American. My only gripe about that is ppl calling themselves 'African American','Hispanic American', 'Asian American'. Either you're here or your not. That in itself can lead to resentment.
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Re: forgetting your roots
Quote:
Originally Posted by j2k4
If assimilation/integration/time have their usual effect, to the extent the now-native and dominant Latino population finds itself communicating in English, what cockeyed brand of reasoning might possess them to harken back to their original language?
Pride in their history?
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Re: forgetting your roots
Quote:
Originally Posted by SideSwiped
Like I said, I don't agree, I don't have to agree. I am not defending nor condoning their actions. I am a moderate and strive to understand all sides of an issue. I would like to ask them why. What is it truly that upset them about this? And, what is it that truly upsets you?
I'm not upset :unsure:
But I do think that there more to it than a misplaced sense of pride, or a lack of eloquence. And that it's quite understandable why someone would take offence to their behavior, I don't know whether they are members of any nazi-affiliated organisation :lol: , but the way they behaved/spoke in this matter seems like idiocy and intolerance to me.
And a refusal to acknowledge that the rest of the world is full of people just like them, even tho' they can't understand these people.
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Re: forgetting your roots
Quote:
Originally Posted by SnnY
Pride in their history?
Pride would supplant a logistical expedient?
I wouldn't think so, but I could be wro..nah-don't think so.
Remember, we'd be talking a dominance of numbers, not a dominance of culture, unless you propose a concurrent extermination?
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Re: forgetting your roots
J2: I don't know, it was mere speculation.
One could argue that the current situation is one were the hispanic group are spanish speakers first, and english speakers second. This would, possibly, create a situation where, if they became a majority, they would see it as their right to make spanish the primary language used in official situations, such as when reciting the pledge of allegience. :unsure: It would, after all, have been the language they identified themselves with all along.
This wouldn't be entirely wrong, would it? :unsure:
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Re: forgetting your roots
Quote:
Originally Posted by SideSwiped
I need to apologize to you j2k4. I read your post and was confused, until I reread mine and saw the weird double negative. I am American. My grandparents and great grandparents emmigrated here in the early 20th century. In a way, I am the melting pot. Italian, Greek, German, Sweedish, Polish and Jewish, what a mess eh?
Egad.
Even I only claim German, Dutch, Swedish, Scots-Irish (whatever the hell that is), French, and American Indian.
Wait, that leaves us in a tie. :huh:
No need for an apology; always willing to cooperate to achieve maximum mis-understanding. :lol:
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Re: forgetting your roots
Quote:
Originally Posted by SnnY
J2: I don't know, it was mere speculation.
One could argue that the current situation is one were the hispanic group are spanish speakers first, and english speakers second. This would, possibly, create a situation where, if they became a majority, they would see it as their right to make spanish the primary language used in official situations, such as when reciting the pledge of allegience. :unsure: It would, after all, have been the language they identified themselves with all along.
This wouldn't be entirely wrong, would it? :unsure:
Possibly not.
What I do know is that we've postulated ourselves to the very brink of absurdity, as well as going well past the cats' feeding time. ;)
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Re: forgetting your roots
Quote:
Originally Posted by vidcc
@ hobbes
I would take more heed of the indivisible part of the arguement if we weren't so divided. We have different laws and even different punishments in the different states. We have divided attitudes based on location.
when we do come together it is something special..... i do sometimes wish that the something special could be the norm.
@ all
This thread is about the foriegn language week...not every week and that's why i made it about forgetting our roots and that the boy was being disrespectful to his history.
Vidcc, no barriers can be removed without communication.
The regional variances are more like condiments at McDonalds, then the main course. We all top our quarter-pounders a little bit differently, but we are all still eating hamburgers.
I had a friend from the Ukraine, who spoke perfect English at school. I remember being at his house for his birthday party and his Grandmother had arrived for the event. He would effortlessly alternate from speaking to us in English to her strictly in Ukrainian. We were all pretty impressed, not offended. Also my Jewish friends liked to write things in Hebrew which we thought was cool as well. We wanted them to write our names in Hebrew.
The bottom line is that they were Americans first and they believed in what the pledge states. Regional and personal differences don't really divide us as long as well all believe what our country is supposed to stand for.
As for laws, does anyone really go into a new State and get concerned that they will be arrested because they don't know the law? "I'm not going to Mississippi, I have no idea what the law is?" Crime is crime. If you like to kill people, you might want to consider what State you are in, but that is a bit of an extreme example, to demonstrate differences.
As to the second point, I must apologise. I thought we were pretty much in accord that the kid was being an idiot as it was "language week".
When you posted this to J2:
Quote:
What would your thoughts be then if it was said in both English and spanish in New mexico?
I thought you were trying to alter the course of the thread a little. You know test the limits of what we would find acceptable.
Guess I misunderstood your intent.
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Re: forgetting your roots
Quote:
Originally Posted by SideSwiped
Like I said, I don't agree, I don't have to agree. I am not defending nor condoning their actions. I am a moderate and strive to understand all sides of an issue. I would like to ask them why. What is it truly that upset them about this? And, what is it that truly upsets you?
.
I think this is the crux. This is why people are calling them idiots.
One gets the impression when reading the article that these people have no real idea why they are offended.
When your answer is "It just is.", it means you either haven't bothered to give the situation the intellectual evaluation it merits or you are just knee jerking some pre-programmed brainwashing.
I would like to think that I have a reason I can articulate for holding the opinions that I do.
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Re: forgetting your roots
Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbes
I would like to think that I have a reason I can articulate for holding the opinions that I do.
Just so-
This segues rather neatly into a phrase I hold dear:
The Politics of Reason trumps the Politics of "Feeling".
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Re: forgetting your roots
@ hobbes
not going to quote...too many post gone by.... I wasn't trying to steer the thread beyond the original point however I asked the New Mexico question (my state) because it is noticably a bi-lingual state.... which I think is better than just one language ( English being my primary tongue and I hate it when anyone has the attitude "I speak English and that's good enough")
Yes not having the ability to understand to an acceptable level is a drawback, but it is not an excuse. I am weak in Spanish, but I am making the effort to learn so I am at least as good as my bi-lingual neighbours are in English.
You said language is a barrier to communications...I refer to the person that said about English being the second language...one can be just as good a patriot having English as a second language.
My personal view is that it is the belief in what the pledge says that is important...not the language it is said in.
Perhaps I did use an extreme example when I said about different laws...well look at the uproar over roe V wade and individuals states not wanting to be told what to do....look at the problem with gay unions being honoured in different states.... the list goes on and on.
on the "it just is" thing...... The boy and his father gave a reason why they thought it was wrong, so I don't think they gave it no basis (I know you didn't say they didn't), I just disagree with the way they see it.
As I said the USA is made up from immigration from many nations.... I wonder at what point the USA was considered "set in stone"? I believe that in a thousand years the language will be unrecognisable from today's, not because of immigration alone but through urban culture words and evolution. We already see new words with each edition of the dictionary.
One izzle snizzle crib in the low to the deity
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Re: forgetting your roots
@sideswiped - i dont feel my likening this father/son to Nazis is really all that unfair
you can call my POV narrow if you wish, that is fair,
this is an open discussion after all, and i take no offense
but the fact is, these two were showing blatant intolerance
towards others' culture/language/etc
(and correct me if i am wrong, but didnt the kid SIT through the Pledge?
kind of hypocritical, wouldnt you think? after all the blabbing about respect?)
it was the same type of intolerance that led to the Holocaust
the same type of intolerance that led to the forming of the Klan
no, these guys didnt hang a black man from a tree,
nor did they march 6 million Jews to the gas chamber,
but put em in that situation, what do you think they would do?
considering the attitude they displayed?
given the right circumstances, i.e. knowing the right/wrong people...
i wouldnt put it past em to be sporting a shwastica(sp?) or a hangman's noose
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Re: forgetting your roots
Quote:
Originally Posted by j2k4
The effectiveness of your harangue is mitigated somewhat by the gratuitous insertion of the emboldened German derivation, B.
Please chasten yourself severely; for me to do it would be a grievous overstep.
Thank you.
Don't get me wrong. I understand there are other influences on our region's language other than Britain and someone gave those nuances an official stamp.
My point is...he understands me and I understand him without me taking English class. The nuances are in a book.
French, German, and English may have similarities in verb conjugation, etc. but they are vastly different (hence their entirely different names :dry: ).
Officialness begone...if anything American English is a dialect of (the Queen's) English given a stamp due to water separation. It ain't tha same as what we did with da metric system or anything. :shifty:
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Re: forgetting your roots
Quote:
Originally Posted by vidcc
@ hobbes
I asked the New Mexico question (my state) because it is noticably a bi-lingual state.... which I think is better than just one language
Why? I am at a complete loss as to how this is a good thing. This is not a tolerance issue, but a communication issue. Would you favor a nation that has 57 different languages?
People can speak all the languages they wish, but I want to be able to travel to every corner of my country and be able to communicate and have some sort of common ground. This is no different than wanting my dollar here in Texas to still be a dollar in Wyoming.
Having 2 official languages has no merit and only promotes separation, not "indivisibility". I can't think of a single reason why 2 official languages has any value.
As far as patriotism is concerned, I cannot fathom a human being who is willing to die for a country for which he hasn't even bothered to learn the language.
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Re: forgetting your roots
Quote:
Originally Posted by Busyman
Don't get me wrong. I understand there are other influences on our region's language other than Britain and someone gave those nuances and official stamp.
My point is...he understands me and I understand him without me taking English class. The nuances are in a book.
French, German, and English may have similarities in verb conjugation, etc. but they are vastly different (hence their entirely different names :dry: ).
Officialness begone...if anything American English is a dialect of (the Queen's) English given a stamp due to water separation. It ain't tha same as what we did with da metric system or anything. :shifty:
Yup.
It's all true. :)
Good job; please forgive my portentous and overbearing attempt at humor. :lol:
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Re: forgetting your roots
Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbes
Why? I am at a complete loss as to how this is a good thing. This is not a tolerance issue, but a communication issue. Would you favor a nation that has 57 different languages?
People can speak all the languages they wish, but I want to be able to travel to every corner of my country and be able to communicate and have some sort of common ground. This is no different than wanting my dollar here in Texas to still be a dollar in Wyoming.
Having 2 official languages has no merit and only promotes separation, not "indivisibility". I can't think of a single reason why 2 official languages has any value.
As far as patriotism is concerned, I cannot fathom a human being who is willing to die for a country for which he hasn't even bothered to learn the language.
Hobbes I have rarely observed a point being made with such clarity.
Did you by any chance attend the University of Mizzou? :P
Vid-
I empathize entirely with your urge to assimilate, but you must realize that you apply yourself to that particular task out of nothing more than the goodness of your own heart and a personal rationalization (which is commendable) that you might be a better neighbor and/or community member.
For the state to require it of you or it's agencies by way of accomodation accomplishes nothing, and is, as Hobbes says, a barrier to integration and race relations.
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Re: forgetting your roots
Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbes
Why? I am at a complete loss as to how this is a good thing. This is not a tolerance issue, but a communication issue. Would you favor a nation that has 57 different languages?
You appear to think that New Mexico is promoting speaking one OR the other. What it is doing is promoting the ability to speak both. It just happens that it has a large Latin population so for this state it makes sense in not just unity of citizens but educationaly.....unless you think it is better to know just one language.
Yes there are some that are not up to speed with their English, and having two languages isn't just about the reasons I stated...there is the other great American "ethic"....that is supply and demand.
Unless we speak all languages then your excessive 57 would be unworkable, however more and more the Latino population is growing and instead of saying that they should speak American I see it as an opportunity for Americans to "improve themselves" by learning a second language. It is a two way street that I believe can benefit us all.
I hope this make what I am saying clearer than before
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Re: forgetting your roots
Quote:
Originally Posted by vidcc
You appear to think that New Mexico is promoting speaking one OR the other. What it is doing is promoting the ability to speak both. It just happens that it has a large Latin population so for this state it makes sense in not just unity of citizens but educationaly.....unless you think it is better to know just one language.
Yes there are some that are not up to speed with their English, and having two languages isn't just about the reasons I stated...there is the other great American "ethic"....that is supply and demand.
Unless we speak all languages then your excessive 57 would be unworkable, however more and more the Latino population is growing and instead of saying that they should speak American I see it as an opportunity for Americans to "improve themselves" by learning a second language. It is a two way street that I believe can benefit us all.
I hope this make what I am saying clearer than before
By having a dual official language, New Mexico is unequivically promoting speaking one or the other. No doubt. Why learn both when everything is provided in the language you already know.
I don't care how many Hispanic, or Chinese, or whatever move here. The official language is English and if they they want to live here then they should learn our language.
Coming to America is completely elective and we bear no responsibility to change our ways to accomadate them. If we test the limits we could have 1 billion Chinese immigrants, so should we speak Chinese? No, this our country and they need to change their ways, not we ours.
How could learning Spanish benefit me in any way? None, none at all.
America has no responsibility to accomadate based on numbers. The country was founded and chartered in English. Anyone that comes here must not only agree to our philosophy, but speak our official language.
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Re: forgetting your roots
Quote:
Originally Posted by j2k4
Vid-
I empathize entirely with your urge to assimilate, but you must realize that you apply yourself to that particular task out of nothing more than the goodness of your own heart and a personal rationalization (which is commendable) that you might be a better neighbor and/or community member.
My reply to hobbes clears up (I hope) why I have this view
Quote:
For the state to require it of you or it's agencies by way of accomodation accomplishes nothing, and is, as Hobbes says, a barrier to integration and race relations.
I would suggest that I creates a barrier for you because you choose it to be.
I don't know how to say this without it seeming personal..but it isn't my intention for it to be...... the "If they come here they should intergrate to us" thing shouldn't be taken as being give up anything else.
I know you agree that other nations have things to offer but I do sometimes feel that people have the attitude that instead of "adding" to our (this doesn't just apply to the USA) culture, they are in fact trying to take over and destroy the culture. This just isn't true.
America has a culture based on many, when did culture suddenly become set in stone.
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Re: forgetting your roots
Quote:
Originally Posted by vidcc
My reply to hobbes clears up (I hope) why I have this view
America has a culture based on many, when did culture suddenly become set in stone.
The official language in America is English.
Notice that all signs are in this language. Do we need 57 different sets of road signs to accomadate everyone?
If I moved to France, I would learn French, not expect their government to provide everything to me in English.
I am not a carebear that thinks that I should learn Chinese, Japanese, French, Polish, German, Russian, and Spanish as an opportunity to better understand those flocking to my country. It is the opposite.
My ancestors spoke something other than English, but understood that speaking English was how to best assimilate in a new land.
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Re: forgetting your roots
Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbes
America has no responsibility to accomadate base on numbers.
Since when did the lack of responsibility mean that something shouldn't be done?
Quote:
The country was founded and chartered in English. Anyone that comes here must not only agree to our philosophy, but speak our official language.
I have already said that part of becoming a citizen should be a minimum vocabulary. My point is that a second language is a good thing. If you wish to be left behind and live in a small world that's your choice, nobody is forcing you to learn anything and for your particular field of employment perhaps you may not need a second language, but today's world is not just America. More and more we are dealing on the international market...so tell me what is so beneficial in a nation that is mono-lingual? On the world market the old speaking slowly and loudly doesn't make them understand.
A nation of children growing up with the ability to communicate on the world market IS a good thing. It broadens opportunity.
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Re: forgetting your roots
Quote:
Originally Posted by vidcc
Since when did the lack of responsibility mean that something shouldn't be done?
I have already said that part of becoming a citizen should be a minimum vocabulary. My point is that a second language is a good thing. If you wish to be left behind and live in a small world that's your choice, nobody is forcing you to learn anything and for your particular field of employment perhaps you may not need a second language, but today's world is not just America. More and more we are dealing on the international market...so tell me what is so beneficial in a nation that is mono-lingual? On the world market the old speaking slowly and loudly doesn't make them understand.
A nation of children growing up with the ability to communicate on the world market IS a good thing. It broadens opportunity.
I tend to disagree with this view. The age of the Internet IMO requires a single language, which appears to, at the moment,be favouring English. There was a big hullabaloo at the loss of Latin a few years back. If a language is not getting used, let it die.
If you visit Wales, North Scotland or the Republic of Ireland you will find signposts in two languages. I bet that the people who were shouting for this were not the majority who payed for them. There are more signposts in Gaelic than Gaelic speakers. :lol:
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Re: forgetting your roots
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigboab
I tend to disagree with this view. The age of the Internet IMO requires a single language, which appears to, at the moment,be favouring English. There was a big hullabaloo at the loss of Latin a few years back. If a language is not getting used, let it die.
If you visit Wales, North Scotland or the Republic of Ireland you will find signposts in two languages. I bet that the people who were shouting for this were not the majority who payed for them. There are more signposts in Gaelic than Gaelic speakers. :lol:
I can see some cold reasoning there that makes sense, unfortunately people just aren't like that.
If you let a language die then part of that community's culture will die too. As I said, I cannot speak Welsh - and to be perfectly honest the dual-language sign-posts are superfluous from an outsider's point of view but the fact that I see Croeso i Cymru on my way back over the Severn Bridge gives me, and most Welshmen, a tingle of pride that Welcome to Wales never could.
If not many people visited Edinburgh Castle, you wouldn't want to knock it down.
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Re: forgetting your roots
Quote:
Originally Posted by manker
If not many people visited Edinburgh Castle, you wouldn't want to knock it down.
I dont know that many people that speak 'Edinburgh Castle'. Spider Dude maybe. :rolleyes:
Sorry Liam. I could be wrong. You are possibly more Haymarket. :unsure:
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Re: forgetting your roots
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigboab
I dont know that many people that speak 'Edinburgh Castle'. Spider Dude maybe. :rolleyes:
:lol:
I'll be the grammar police, you can be the analogy cop.
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Re: forgetting your roots
Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbes
The official language in America is English.
Notice that all signs are in this language. Do we need 57 different sets of road signs to accomadate everyone?
If I moved to France, I would learn French, not expect their government to provide everything to me in English.
I am not a carebear that thinks that I should learn Chinese, Japanese, French, Polish, German, Russian, and Spanish as an opportunity to better understand those flocking to my country. It is the opposite.
My ancestors spoke something other than English, but understood that speaking English was how to best assimilate in a new land.
Damn hobbes you make so many good points that it's hard to even add to it. :lol: :lol:
We need our immigration laws tightened. The Hispanic population has grown due to "jumping the fence" and then being granted citizenship. In contrast, blacks, the "other" minority here, were brought over here and we fucked our brains out. Not alot of immigration but fornication. :w00t: :shifty:
Again, there is a large number that refuse to learn English.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbes
By having a dual official language, New Mexico is unequivically promoting speaking one or the other.
Very good point. By having another official language (Spanish) you essentially say to the folks that only speak Spanish that there is no need to learn English.
The only folks that care about the Spanish language presence in our country are politicians and marketing gurus.
Comcast has a Spanish package on digital cable and politicians love to bring voters in "over the fence".
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Re: forgetting your roots
Quote:
Originally Posted by vidcc
Since when did the lack of responsibility mean that something shouldn't be done?
I have already said that part of becoming a citizen should be a minimum vocabulary. My point is that a second language is a good thing. If you wish to be left behind and live in a small world that's your choice, nobody is forcing you to learn anything and for your particular field of employment perhaps you may not need a second language, but today's world is not just America. More and more we are dealing on the international market...so tell me what is so beneficial in a nation that is mono-lingual? On the world market the old speaking slowly and loudly doesn't make them understand.
A nation of children growing up with the ability to communicate on the world market IS a good thing. It broadens opportunity.
I think that there is a distinct line between, "I think it is a good idea to have exposure and knowledge of other languages, especially in today's global market" and "Having more than 1 official language is a good thing."
For instance, I think it is a good thing to have a "foreign language" requirements in high school and college. I took Spanish and Latin and I personally enjoyed those classes. I do not think it is good to have 2 official languages because it has no role other than 2 divide people within the same country. I don't want to be asking for directions in some small town in New Mexico and have no one around able to understand me. Or send my child to school taught in Spanish because that is what the majority that live their speak. This is America, not "little Mexico", we already have a language. If we add Spanish, then where do we stop adding new "official" languages.
We did this little experiment before in the Old West. Each bank would print it's own currency. Problem was it was not readily transferrable due to lack of security behind all those different currencies. It was chaos, you never knew if the next town would accept the money you were carrying or not. The solution was to create a single currency that was insured in gold by the treasury. One country, one official currency, one official language- it just makes sense.
Language in the future will become more homogenized with this interweb thingey though, I've personally added quite a few Scottish favorite to my vocabulary and they are permeating the minds of those who are forced to work with me. Troubling aspect is that is all profanity.
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Re: forgetting your roots
It's quite possible to have two or more official languages without giving them the same status.
We have one official language used by the majority here, that's the one that goes on road-signs and similar. Then there are a bunch of minority-languages, and some information is available in these languages, but one language is still the norm. It works quite well.
Children whose first language/whose parents' first language isn't the norm learn the norm, and their own, and they have a right to learning their own language as a subject in school ("hemspråk/native language").
Being bilingual is never a bad thing, it has been proven that people learning two or more languages stand to gain a lot, both by having a greater ability to communicate, and by being better at learning yet more languages.
Your first language is, psychologically, an important part of your identity, and something you should be allowed to keep.
I've noticed that some of you use the expression "assimilation" rather than "integration", assimilation is usually regarded as being more negative since it's a loss of part of your ethnicity and identity, as opposed to integration where your ethnicity remains intact while you become a part of society. Many countries today strive towards integration as it's been proven to be better for the individual. And an important part of this is that you get to keep your own language.
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Re: forgetting your roots
Quote:
Originally Posted by SnnY
It's quite possible to have two or more official languages without giving them the same status.
We have one official language used by the majority here, that's the one that goes on road-signs and similar. Then there are a bunch of minority-languages, and some information is available in these languages, but one language is still the norm. It works quite well.
Children whose first language/whose parents' first language isn't the norm learn the norm, and their own, and they have a right to learning their own language as a subject in school ("hemspråk/native language").
Being bilingual is never a bad thing, it has been proven that people learning two or more languages stand to gain a lot, both by having a greater ability to communicate, and by being better at learning yet more languages.
Your first language is, psychologically, an important part of your identity, and something you should be allowed to keep.
I've noticed that some of you use the expression "assimilation" rather than "integration", assimilation is usually regarded as being more negative since it's a loss of part of your ethnicity and identity, as opposed to integration where your ethnicity remains intact while you become a part of society. Many countries today strive towards integration as it's been proven to be better for the individual. And an important part of this is that you get to keep your own language.
I'm not saying Hispanics shouldn't keep their language. I'm saying they should learn ours. I know how others feel when they walk into a store and just about all the employees don't speak English (especially McDonald's :lol: :lol: )
Politicians have their head so far up the voting booth's ass that they don't take a firm stand on the issue.
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Re: forgetting your roots
Hobbes and busy
You are showing my point about "they should become us". The only division is because of your attitude. Government puts official forms into different languages because they are often complex. There are Americans that speak only "English" that have trouble understanding some of those forms. What road signs are in two languages? I live in this bi-lingual state and I have seen none apart from a few right on the boarders in TX,AZ and CA which are more for the benefit of tourists than immigrants (this happens the world over)
instead of seeing an opportunity to gain, you see an attack on your own myopic world. instead of thinking of how to profit from something you close your eyes, cover your ears and shout "nonononono"
the point about 57 different languages is complete bollocks and I said it would be unworkable.
hobbes said you studied languages at school..... do you remember much? would you be more fluent if you got the chance to speak those languages.
Your view that people wouldn't bother learning a second language says more about your own myopic attitude. I know only one Spanish speaker that isn't fluent in English, and she is working hard to change it.....why... because only government forms are in both languages and she needs English to do everything else. She can communicate in spoken word reasonably but the written word is harder for her.
@ boab
your view shows laziness.... "why should I learn another language when everyone else made the effort to learn English?"..... I know you are no spring chicken but come on...let the empire attitude go....India has it's own flag.
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Re: forgetting your roots
Quote:
Originally Posted by vidcc
I know only one Spanish speaker that isn't fluent in English
As someone how grew up in the hispanic community, I have to say, there were far more people who spoke only spanish and didn't give a whip about english.
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Re: forgetting your roots
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeavyMetalParkingLot
As someone how grew up in the hispanic community, I have to say, there were far more people who spoke only spanish and didn't give a whip about english.
and those people will only be able to cut hobbes grass for a living.
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Re: forgetting your roots
My tutor marked my last piece of coursework in American-English. :glare:
So I threw her in the harbor.
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Re: forgetting your roots
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeavyMetalParkingLot
I have to say, there were far more people who spoke only spanish and didn't give a whip about english.
Same here. If they don't have to learn it well......
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Re: forgetting your roots
I agree with you that being bi-lingual is becoming more and more an important job qualification. But what determines which languages people should have to know? Around here English and Spanish are the prodominant languages, but there are also Vietnamese speakers, Chinese speakers, Japanese speakers, Korean speakers, Samoan speakers, and so on and so on. I myself am already bi-lingual, but say if I move to Minnesota, I may as well only speak English. Should I then have to learn yet another language just to live somewhere? I mean I already speak English and 98% of the time, everything around me will be in English. Should I have to learn a couple Native American languages so I can order a hamburger at whatever fast food joint I step into?
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Re: forgetting your roots
Quote:
Originally Posted by vidcc
Hobbes and busy
You are showing my point about "they should become us". The only division is because of your attitude. Government puts official forms into different languages because they are often complex. There are Americans that speak only "English" that have trouble understanding some of those forms. What road signs are in two languages? I live in this bi-lingual state and I have seen none apart from a few right on the boarders in TX,AZ and CA which are more for the benefit of tourists than immigrants (this happens the world over)
instead of seeing an opportunity to gain, you see an attack on your own myopic world. instead of thinking of how to profit from something you close your eyes, cover your ears and shout "nonononono"
the point about 57 different languages is complete bollocks and I said it would be unworkable.
hobbes said you studied languages at school..... do you remember much? would you be more fluent if you got the chance to speak those languages.
Your view that people wouldn't bother learning a second language says more about your own myopic attitude. I know only one Spanish speaker that isn't fluent in English, and she is working hard to change it.....why... because only government forms are in both languages and she needs English to do everything else. She can communicate in spoken word reasonably but the written word is harder for her.
@ boab
your view shows laziness.... "why should I learn another language when everyone else made the effort to learn English?"..... I know you are no spring chicken but come on...let the empire attitude go....India has it's own flag.
What are you on about? I said they should learn our language not become us.
So what now...they come over here and I'm supposed to learn their language?
Fuck that shit!! :dry:
That's the whole reason there Comcast has a Spanish Pack. There are tons of Spanish-only speaking paying customers.
You also touched on a very good point about an "oppurtunity to gain" which is why things are going this way.
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Re: forgetting your roots
Quote:
Originally Posted by Busyman
What are you on about? I said they should learn our language not become us.
So what now...they come over here and I'm supposed to learn their language?
Fuck that shit!! :dry:
That's the whole reason there Comcast has a Spanish Pack. There are tons of Spanish-only speaking paying customers.
You also touched on a very good point about an "oppurtunity to gain" which is why things are going this way.
And i've said they should learn English to become a citizen...i have also said that if you wish to just speak one language that is your choice. Who has suggested that you would or should be forced to learn a second language?. I have even said that there are some that don't have a suitable English vocabulary, and that is their loss.
you also still look at it in one sentence as having to learn to placate them... but that is not the way i am putting the case
your other sentence is
Quote:
You also touched on a very good point about an "oppurtunity to gain" which is why things are going this way.
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Re: forgetting your roots
Quote:
Originally Posted by vidcc
And i've said they should learn English to become a citizen...i have also said that if you wish to just speak one language that is your choice. Who has suggested that you would or should be forced to learn a second language?. I have even said that there are some that don't have a suitable English vocabulary, and that is their loss.
you also still look at it in one sentence as having to learn to placate them... but that is not the way i am putting the case
Well now since they don't have to learn English then this whole argument is a wash and part of the problem...them not learning English.
I don't have a problem with Comcast's Spanish Pack, just merely pointing out that many hispanics not having to learn English is the object of marketing gurus attention.
America is placating them.
I am forced to learn their language if I want to communicate in a place of business. Hamburger and fries please. H-A-M-B-U-R-G-E-R A-N-D F-R-I-E-S. :angry:
