get out of the house. is any body a doctor here? they should have a better explenation.
Printable View
get out of the house. is any body a doctor here? they should have a better explenation.
It's neither.Quote:
If you want to stir up trouble at a party-or better still, a bar-try bringing up the question of whether homosexuality is something people are born with or something they choose.
But it is refuted by those-generally on the religious right-who have a stake in believing that homosexuality is a personal choice rather than an inborn trait.
If it is neither, then what is it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Busyman
Or both, plus other factors, possibly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Busyman
Prove why your favorite color is what it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by bigboab
You can't choose attraction.Quote:
Originally Posted by JPaul
You can choose to act on it.
Exactly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Busyman
Tho' I tend to think attraction is the product, to a certain extent, of environmental conditioning.
One only has to look at how things have changed over the years, from the models of Reuben to the modern super model.
http://www.hermitagemuseum.ca/Hermit...ubensUoEnW.jpghttp://www.essentialart.com/mh/Kate_Moss_print.jpg
It may be a case of life reflecting art. We are told what is attractive and we come to accept it.
I can see no genetic or chemical reason for this, ergo it is based on conditioning.
The thing is those that believe it's genetic/chemical have conveniently drawn the line at the gender.Quote:
Originally Posted by JPaul
I believe ANYONE under the right circumstance could be/could have been homosexual/bisexual.
I believe what one finds attractive/unattractive now, could change.
Which is why I believe it is a combination of factors.
Genetics, nurturing by parents, environmental conditioning.
I do not know if everyone is potentially homosexual / bisexual. However I think there are three main aspects to be considered
1. Whether a person is potentially homosexual / bisexual and in your scenario (where you beleive everyone is) to what extent the person is pre-disposed.
2. Whether the persons upbringing tends to make that aspect of their personality come to the fore.
3. Whether the person accepts this and lives the lifestyle, or fights it and does not accept their real self.
The perception of what is beautiful varies from culture to culture and changes over time.
Both men and women are beautiful and this can be appreciated by both genders. That is the realm of aesthetics.
Asthetics are rather a non-issue in regard to nature. We are machines programmed to do one thing- procreate. This is what we call a "selected" trait. If you can't make insulin, your gene pool dies. If you don't procreate, your gene pool dies.
So attraction toward a gender which allows your genes to prosper is of paramount importance and therefore fundamentally different than your favorite color. Nature doesn't care what color you like, just as long as you make babies.
Color preference is NOT inherited. It is influenced by life experiences and aesthetics. My Indian co-workers definitely choose different colors to dress themselves in as these colors are more flattering to their skin color. We all, to some degree, have a concept of color coordination. If we don't, other people let us know. My favorite color is navy blue, because that is the color that attracts the most positive response from females. When I was a child, my favorite color was green, because that is the color of money. If I get a good tan, my favorite color is white.
So one choice effects the propagation of our gene pool, which is what we were made to do. The other has no bearing on survival or procreation, whatsoever, and if we think about, we CAN actually come up with a reason for why we chose a favorite color.
It is important to look at the big picture. We think that someone living to 90 is old, but what is that in relation to 10,000 years. Why do we die? The truth is that our genomes shut us down. We kill ourselves. This shut down mode starts as soon as our reproductive capabilities slow down.
Arousal is the distinquishing element. Your taste in women may change, but it will always be women, and never men, unless you are homosexual or bisexual.
I would go so far as to say that if you engage in sex with men simply for the orgasm, but are not aroused by them, you are not gay, you are kinda gross though. It is more like social masturbation. If you want to lay around on the couch and cuddle with men and watch a movie, you are definitely gay.
I may change what I find most attractive, but I won't change the gender.
I think extreme early trauma can alter a child, such a molestation by a trusted family member, but this is rather a "learned aversion" type situation.
I think children brought up in a culture that scorns heterosexual behavior, will just create a lot of conflicted children. Why do I feel this way when everyone says it's wrong. Why do I go against the grain. I don't want to feel the way I do.
And that is what we see with our gay population. They ARE gay despite not wanting to be. Despite execution in some societies, despite becoming a family outcast, despite being ostracized in the community. Some do cave in to society and get married, they want to be straight, they want to be normal. Then 10 years down the road they come out of the closet. They say that they have always been gay.
A choice, a decision to be like a "mom" they admire? Seems to me most people are kicking and screaming against this lifestyle. As jpol says some people just accept it and live comfortably, others live a secret life and others are riddled with guilt.
hobbes
Good post, thanks for that.
To follow on on :naughty: one minor point. I think there are two seperate issues with regard to the attraction thing. One being controlled by nature / nurture and one being controled by cultural influence. They also come in a distinct order.
1. What gender am I attracted to, bearing in mind that it might be both (but possibly one more than the other).
2. Now what particular physical manifestation do I find most attractive.
I think that's what I was saying before, but hobbes' post has inspired me to express it differently.
Another however here. The desire to procreate is not as all encompassing as hobbes may have us believe. Yes, deep down the desire is there, but we have become much more sophisticated than that. We do things because we want to, because it feels good. Having nothing to do with anything other than hedonism.
There are plenty of people, for whom sexual intercourse is just a bit of fun. Not only do they not wish to procreate, they will take steps to ensure it does not happen. This group consist of pretty much every man I know.
Lets face it, in hobbes' thesis any man would sexualate any woman of child bearing age willing to slap uglies. I think not.
Nature provides the car for us to drive, but societal structure, length of forced abstinence and alcohol tends to determine when we use it. Nature just makes sure she's gassed up and ready to go.Quote:
Originally Posted by JPaul
You really shouldn't drive that car when drunk, as umm, err, asthetics have been known to be replaced with a paper bag.
My point about procreation was perhaps a little sloppy.
Nature refers to a bigger picture than a specific animal.
The animal is on a need to know basis only.
The animal does not need to appreciate that sex is related to the production of offspring, but simplly needs a desire to have it.
The animal doesn't need to understand that hydration is important to health, he just need to drink water.
We humans are driven by our nature to have sex and we enjoy it. We understand the connection between sex and procreation, which is rather a unique perspective.
I didn't mean to express that animals and humans are conciously thinking "I want to propagate my gene pool, I need to make babies", we are simply responding to natures simple command, "Go hit that, dog!". It has a plan for us bigger than we can or need to appreciate.
"Nature refers to a bigger picture than a specific animal."
"The animal does not need to appreciate that sex is related to the production of offspring, but simplly needs a desire to have it."
"The animal doesn't need to understand that hydration is important to health, he just need to drink water."
All true, however
"We humans are driven by our nature to have sex and we enjoy it. We understand the connection between sex and procreation, which is rather a unique perspective."
We are not the same as the other animals, we are not driven by instinct alone. We understand cause and effect, we understand that actions have rammifications. We then make choices.
But we digress.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JPaul
My mind is reading this in a couple ways, and I can't pinpoint what exactly you are implying with this line. I find I can spin it several ways, but I can't figure which way was your intent.
Meaning is that a "stand alone" comment or is it referring back to a particular point.
Yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbes
However I suspect you mean "reading that" and " "that line", rather than "reading this" and "this line". As it was your good self who posted "My mind is reading this in a couple ways, and I can't pinpoint what exactly you are implying with this line."
Think it thro'.
You can't answer a "this or that" post with a "yes", that's just confusing.
This is flawed, flwaed, flawed
Wrong, we are programmed to fuck (or gain orgasm)Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbes
Since when is nature assigned caring?Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbes
Not everyone can though. I use the color thingie 'cause it's simple. I was waiting for someone to say, "Well I like black 'cause it is what Batman wears and he's cool." Even certain paintings invoke a certain response where the "why" can't be proven scientifically. There is something in life that spurred this liking and one isn't born with it. One example you gave had nothing to with invoking an emotional response from you but rather you chose the color for a perceived emotional response of women.Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbes
I don't know if it's been proven why we shut down or how it relates to what we are talking about.Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbes
How does one know this?Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbes
How does one do this? If a man is in jail, previously heterosexual, looks at another man's ass, gets wood, and starts pounding him in the ass, how is that NOT homosexual? :blink:Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbes
[QUOTE=hobbes]I may change what I find most attractive, but I won't change the gender.All that proves is no matter what, you like what you like.Quote:
Ahhh but people do. I've seen it in numerous women. I think as gay lifestyle becomes more accepted so will gender jumping. The many don't change now is because of social pressures and stigma that are still pervasive in our society. For example, I think it's nasty (at least for men) :naughty: .
It's called environment. Why does one child that is molested by a man (or woman) turn out gay and another may not? Some don't avert ya know.Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbes
Can you change your real desires (not actions) if society told you to? I would still like a woman with a fat ass because it riles me up. Whether I act on my desires with risk of death is another story. People are still getting infected with AIDS despite preachings of abstinence and condom usage. :dry:Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbes
A choice, a decision to be like a "mom" they admire? Seems to me most people are kicking and screaming against this lifestyle. As jpol says some people just accept it and live comfortably, others live a secret life and others are riddled with guilt.
:naughty: big butts!
...and for me...Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbes
1. Tall
2. Muscular legs.
3. Tits don't have to be big but at least a big handful.
4. Pretty face (of course)
5. Flat stomach but not necessarily a six-pack (I don't like a rippling woman :sick: )
6. Toned arms (again not bulging and rippling)
7. Small waist
8. Hips like this < > :lol: :lol:
equals a 10.
I like an Amazon woman tall in high heels.
I've been with probably 8 perfect 10's in my lifetime and among others, I ended up pulling an all night sperm dumpsterfest. :devil:
Yes you can, I just did.Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbes
Here's another example
Q. Did you go to the town on the bus or the train ?
A. Yes
The answer is perfectly valid
However if the question started with a which, that would be different.
Q. Which mode of transport did you use to go into town ?
A. Bus.
Do you see.
I'd have just posted a picture of a rod.
I love when folks get roped into a JPaulism.
I catch them everytime. :lol: :lol:
:lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by manker
How very "learned" of you :naughty:Quote:
Originally Posted by Busyman
And I didn't have to google or anything and even.Quote:
Originally Posted by JPaul
Indeed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Busyman
Of course I see, how else would I be able to have a favorite color? What an odd comment. A little synthesis with prior threads would go a long way. Think it through, laddy.Quote:
Originally Posted by JPaul
A jpolism or an appleism, one wonders.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Busyman
Why is "googling" such an issue for him?
Is it not a valid tool for self education?
Where then is it decreed that a "google" is a crime, a breech of educational etiquette.
Alas, I cannot fathom this logic nor appreciate the transgression.
Furthermore, where is my TV remote?
Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbes
:meow: :P
I can't remember, perhaps you could look it up on askjeeves.Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbes
or is it the way they are raised.....
:lol: :lol: :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by JPaul
It's not a crime.Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbes
However, using it does not make one intelligent, learned, or even correct.
So providing a link doesn't either. Google masks many folks unintelligence. My fellow table members don't think that way.
I remember reading a scientific study, full of empirical evidence that there was a link between an amount of a certain material in the brain and homosexuality.
It was later proven to be bullshit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Busyman
By throwing chum into the water, Busyman was baited and hooked by "soliloquy" roddage. Did take a while though.
Was the sentence structure not overly dramatic enough? Was the introspective musing not obvious?
For later reference, one might note the word "alas" as an antiquated expression of extreme remorse or emotion. The fact that the entire post is tongue-in-cheek is clinched by the query about the location of my TV remote.
Of course one cannot become learned by "googling". And also one must learn to see the unspoken wink or smilie.
Words do not always convey the true meaning, it is simply a matter of synthesis and context. Seeing through the words to the meaning or intent, that is the realm of insight.
I remember a scientific study that was full of empirical evidence and it turned out to be perfectly correct. Again, we can't let exceptions define the norm.
If I don't indulge these tongue and cheek references I wouldn't have any fun on here. :( (notice I left out your TV remote thing on purpose)Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbes
As far as your scientific study, I am certain it was not regarding genetic/hormonal homosexuality.
Prove why you like the color blue.
Many homosexuals say they were born that way 'cause they were that way as far back as they can remember.
How do they know they were born that way?
What is "that way" anyway?
Did they like what mommy liked?
They wanted emulate her instead of daddy?
Was the sight of a boy attractive?
What made the boy attractive?
That last question speaks volumes as to why gender is no different than what type of woman I like.
Case and point...
A man with a sex change can fool a man into believing he is a woman.
Is either man a homosexual?
This is perfect example of what I'm talking about.
If it looks like a woman a straight man will probably fuck himher.
A man finds out it's really a man with an insideout dick and he might shun the heshe, which hardly involves nature but nurture.
He makes a conscious choice not to do it with himher but what if he does fuck himher again?
This comes back to...prove scientifically why I like blue.
Because blue is associated with the make gender. Is this your way of 'coming out'?:cry:Quote:
Originally Posted by Busyman
Make gender?Quote:
Originally Posted by bigboab
Tbh my favorite color is black.
Your favourite colour is the absence of all colours.Quote:
Originally Posted by Busyman
How poetic :unsure:
Maybe he meant Fake Gender.Quote:
Originally Posted by Busyman
I think he's calling you sexually ambivalent.
Not necessarily, it could be than someone decides, unconciously, that he(-she) smells wrong, and therefore isn't attracted to him(-her).Quote:
Originally Posted by Busyman
'cos of the pheromones, see. Like I said before, that has really been proven to be a factor, although I think women make decisions based on smell more consciously than men does.
Anyway, a bloke is always a bloke, if he was born that way, IMO.
No amount of surgery and/or hormone treatments will alter that :unsure: