Brexit

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Originally Posted by shaina

Well inflation, cost of goods etc, thinking that every currency fluctuates, costs are going to change no matter what no Cabby??

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That's a stupid argument; just because things get more expensive due to inflation does not mean that you should disregard cost increases due to other reasons, like currency devaluation.

If your currency is worth 10% less then that means that your imports are 10% more expensive. As a consumer you might only see a 5% increase in what you pay, but that just means that the importer is eating the other 5%. That extra cost means higher operating expenses/lower margins, hence lower profits, lower tax payments (or at some point the company goes bust and lays off all its employees, with all the associated costs for society). Etc.

Now all of that makes some sense, but a self sustained country is always better, but we both know that is impossible ;)

So saying that, the UK or Germany or any country leaving the EU still boggles my mind why you cant make free trade or negotiate trade deals with or without the EU, again border and immigration i see as the biggest issues/changes. But if the UK can make other deals in trade to benefit themselves or who they choose to deal with will not make the UK worse off...

Again my opinion be it right or wrong, and what ever happens happens....

Thanks for the link as well Cabby, Interesting, Italy, Germany, France are on the Euro list, so they don't use local currency?? Just curious even know it is not a standard in other EU countries, say i cross the border to Buffalo, they will accept Canadian currency (with an exchange rate of course), again we know it is for the usual reasons to get cross border shopping right and vise versa for Americans coming to Canada. I would think it is pretty much known who is part of the EU, and the concept of open border travelling across all, they would accept the euro even if they had there own currency, especially in a tourist perspective..

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Originally Posted by Caballero

That's a stupid argument; just because things get more expensive due to inflation does not mean that you should disregard cost increases due to other reasons, like currency devaluation.

If your currency is worth 10% less then that means that your imports are 10% more expensive. As a consumer you might only see a 5% increase in what you pay, but that just means that the importer is eating the other 5%. That extra cost means higher operating expenses/lower margins, hence lower profits, lower tax payments (or at some point the company goes bust and lays off all its employees, with all the associated costs for society). Etc.

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Again your point of increase and eating cost, from my experience or knowledge, unless it is drastic, most of the time in costing anything that is imported there is a built in leeway, because of currency exchanges.. Most of the time you see large increases on things because of availability, and or seasonal items...
And think if it is a perishable items, for sure that is built into the costing....

But it goes to saying is Brexit going to turn the UK into a third world country?? I don't think so, and is it going to bankrupt the EU?? I don't think so. And really the question Cabby, is at least half or more of the Country citizens want to separate from the EU. So saying that you are going to please everyone no matter if they stay or go seems to be irreverent really..

Again i doubt it is going to change your life or mine, really this is just conversation and opinions, and trying to get some facts of the good and bad for a country right:)...

Again i will ask you, your gas you put in your car now is not from outside the US i assume now right, are you seeing any savings from that?? Why isn't there??
Our raw gas actually comes from Canada as well, but it is refined in the US so when it comes back we get fucked!!!!. But what i don't understand and maybe you do, is why prices are still influenced from the Middle East ?? Do you have an answer for that?? I sure don't...

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Originally Posted by shaina

So saying that, the UK or Germany or any country leaving the EU still boggles my mind why you cant make free trade or negotiate trade deals with or without the EU, again border and immigration i see as the biggest issues/changes. But if the UK can make other deals in trade to benefit themselves or who they choose to deal with will not make the UK worse off...

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OK, you go to your local electronics store, and let's say they are actually willing to negotiate on what they charge you for their products.

Scenario #1: "Hi, I am Shaina, I am a buyer for XYZ company, and we need 3,000 widgets."

Scenario #2: "Hi, I am Shaina, I need 2 widgets, please."

Which scenario do you think will yield the better price for you?

And after you answer that, tell me why any country would give the UK as a single entity more favorable trade terms than the EU that as a block can offer a vastly greater market? We've had this discussion for I don't know how long; It's really not that difficult to understand... Sheesh.

And no, a self-sustained country is not always better if that means that your necessities that you produce at home are so resource-intensive that you cannot provide any nice-to-haves for the population. Trade allows for efficiencies and lifts the overall living standard. That's basic macro-economics.

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Originally Posted by Caballero

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Originally Posted by shaina

So saying that, the UK or Germany or any country leaving the EU still boggles my mind why you cant make free trade or negotiate trade deals with or without the EU, again border and immigration i see as the biggest issues/changes. But if the UK can make other deals in trade to benefit themselves or who they choose to deal with will not make the UK worse off...

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OK, you go to your local electronics store, and let's say they are actually willing to negotiate on what they charge you for their products.

Scenario #1: "Hi, I am Shaina, I am a buyer for XYZ company, and we need 3,000 widgets."

Scenario #2: "Hi, I am Shaina, I need 2 widgets, please."

Which scenario do you think will yield the better price for you?

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To be honest that is a loaded and stupid question, because if you were me or like most consumers today, they look online and elsewhere for the lowest price and most stores will price match... But to go further, even by your logic there is only a price that can be considered the least and it is up to the manufacturer or retailer if they do accept your offer no matter if yo buy 1 or a 1000...

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And after you answer that, tell me why any country would give the UK as a single entity more favorable trade terms than the EU that as a block can offer a vastly greater market? We've had this discussion for I don't know how long; It's really not that difficult to understand... Sheesh.

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So now lets go back to your answer to one of my questions, the EU needs the UK just as much or more right, why?? Maybe because they do have to buy products or give jobs opportunity to outside UK citizens no??

You are looking one sided and not the other in my opinion, yes the UK will need imports and other countries will want the UK products that exports do you not see my point here yet??

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And no, a self-sustained country is not always better if that means that your necessities that you produce at home are so resource-intensive that you cannot provide any nice-to-haves for the population. Trade allows for efficiencies and lifts the overall living standard. That's basic macro-economics.

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Well i see this different for reasons of reliability, and have the option of negotiating for imports with strength on negotiations not weakness. The UK leaving will not be because of weakness or this whole Brexit thing would be mute...

You getting mad on not looking at both sides of any debate is amusing. I don't disagree that there will be some obstacles, but it is workable with opening new trade deals as well..

Now take this scenario.. If a company buys 10 Jaguar Cars or buys a 1000 how much are they saving?? Plus now they have to pay for the Jaguar Cars and sell them....

Now how does business work really today in retail or internet sales.... The manufacturer projects sales and makes products, and it can be anything, that doesn't mean that a retailer purchases everything at once, you do understand that right?? So now the retailer has a winner and they draw from the manufacturer, and they may pay more in the beginning, and at the end of the year if they hit certain projections they get discounts, you do understand that right??

I mention grades of produce , now add meat products or wheat's and grains or anything, again if i country gives an order or projections of sales, then the farmers etc go by projections, what is the difference on negotiating with a Country or the EU?? If the UK has something that is in demand in all the EU countries what they won't buy it anymore??

I don't get your logic Cabby or your concept of negotiations?? The EU has more countries they deal with, are you telling me they have better negotiating power than the US?? China?? There is only so low you can go on anything if you buy 10 or you buy 1000000000.... And if you don't need those large amounts what is the difference?? It looks like a lot of savings because you are buying bigger volume, but if you can't sell, what is it good for?? If you buy 10 planes and not 100 how much are you saving??

If you use a place like Costco or the Internet really today, what margins do you think they make on a product retail?? and do you not think they have the best negotiators for purchasing on the planet??

Your view is one sided that the UK is not need for export purposes, and if they leave no one dictates who they sell or what they sell??
Canada purchases products from all over the world, what they don't negotiate??, Do you think the EU makes better deals than Canada on imports?? The EU has a much bigger population no?? Bigger than the US?? I wish we had someone like Trump that is stirring the pot and negotiating better deals for the People in Canada....
Don't make the EU to be the be all end all Cabby, the UK is very capable of surviving and thrive without the EU. And if they are smart like Trump, they won't let anyone fuck with them;)

Again really going back I don't think there is a fear of that as much as the fear of having closed borders on the Labour Party and there voters.....
The rest is really all crap!!!
But we will see soon how the citizens of the UK feel when they vote......The truth you may be right, really who knows:idunno:

Our last election in Canada Cabby, the early poles/projections were way the fuck off!!! The same in 2016 in the US right.....

Attachment 183701

Are you out there!!! Calling J2K4:gunsmilie

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Originally Posted by shaina

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Originally Posted by Caballero

OK, you go to your local electronics store, and let's say they are actually willing to negotiate on what they charge you for their products.

Scenario #1: "Hi, I am Shaina, I am a buyer for XYZ company, and we need 3,000 widgets."

Scenario #2: "Hi, I am Shaina, I need 2 widgets, please."

Which scenario do you think will yield the better price for you?

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To be honest that is a loaded and stupid question, because if you were me or like most consumers today, they look online and elsewhere for the lowest price and most stores will price match... But to go further, even by your logic there is only a price that can be considered the least and it is up to the manufacturer or retailer if they do accept your offer no matter if yo buy 1 or a 1000...

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That is absolutely not a loaded/stupid question, because you are missing the point. Regardless of whether you find the cheapest seller online or in your neighborhood, that person's price to you will be influenced by your purchasing power. The more money you have to spend and the more items you are going to purchase, the more likely that person is to give you the rock-bottom price. So your on-line seller may be the cheapest, but if you buy a thousand widgets your price is probably still going to be 10 cents cheaper per widget than if you bought only one. And since companies' cost structures are different from each other, the ability to price match at some point is limited, unless you like selling at a loss. But then, why would you do it? Maybe because you plan on using that widget as a loss leader and hope to make it up on a different item/sale? In that case we are back at the principle of purchasing power.

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Originally Posted by shaina

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And after you answer that, tell me why any country would give the UK as a single entity more favorable trade terms than the EU that as a block can offer a vastly greater market? We've had this discussion for I don't know how long; It's really not that difficult to understand... Sheesh.

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So now lets go back to your answer to one of my questions, the EU needs the UK just as much or more right, why?? Maybe because they do have to buy products or give jobs opportunity to outside UK citizens no??

You are looking one sided and not the other in my opinion, yes the UK will need imports and other countries will want the UK products that exports do you not see my point here yet??

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Does Europe need the UK as much as the other way round? Unpopular answer, but no. Does having the UK as part of the EU provide a benefit to the EU? Yes. But quite frankly, from a trade perspective and all the other good stuff I mentioned, EU membership has more value to the UK than the other way round. It's not a binary choice, really -- "not as much" does not equal "none".

Let's look at it in a different way. Let's say there is a market in Japan for 100 widgets, and both the EU and the UK post-Brexit are competing for access to that market. Japan wants to sell gadgets. The EU comes and says, "Hey, our market for gadgets is worth 1,000 pieces. We will reduce tariffs and duties and let you export 750 gadgets into the EU, but only if you buy 100 widgets from us and/or reduce your tariffs on EU widgets to that they are the cheapest in your country versus other imports." Now the UK comes and says, "Hey, we'd like to ship 100 widgets to you, and in return you can supply our entire gadget market, which is 150 units."

I can confidently predict which trade deal will be signed in that scenario.

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Originally Posted by shaina

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And no, a self-sustained country is not always better if that means that your necessities that you produce at home are so resource-intensive that you cannot provide any nice-to-haves for the population. Trade allows for efficiencies and lifts the overall living standard. That's basic macro-economics.

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Well i see this different for reasons of reliability, and have the option of negotiating for imports with strength on negotiations not weakness. The UK leaving will not be because of weakness or this whole Brexit thing would be mute...

You getting mad on not looking at both sides of any debate is amusing. I don't disagree that there will be some obstacles, but it is workable with opening new trade deals as well..

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I'm not mad. I'm just frustrated that I am apparently such a crappy teacher that I cannot convey simple economics to you. Clearly my career as a university prof would be untenured nd short-lived...

The UK leaving would not be because of weakness, agreed. It's because of politicians' and lobbyists hidden agendas and their lying to the uninformed population. Coming back to that GBP 350 million every month that the Tories were going to spend on the NSH instead of allegedly sending the money to Brussels...

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Originally Posted by shaina

Now take this scenario.. If a company buys 10 Jaguar Cars or buys a 1000 how much are they saving?? Plus now they have to pay for the Jaguar Cars and sell them....

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If a Jaguar costs $100,000 and you are able to negotiate a 5% discount because you are buying a thousand, then you just saved $5 million on your total purchase.

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Originally Posted by shaina

Now how does business work really today in retail or internet sales.... The manufacturer projects sales and makes products, and it can be anything, that doesn't mean that a retailer purchases everything at once, you do understand that right?? So now the retailer has a winner and they draw from the manufacturer, and they may pay more in the beginning, and at the end of the year if they hit certain projections they get discounts, you do understand that right??

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You do understand that even in retail large sellers enter into annual or multi-year contracts with large manufacturers that are a commitment even if they don't take everything at once, right? And that the discounts they give/receive at the end of the year are based on volumes ordered/sold? But wait, that would mean that we are talking about market size and purchasing power! Fancy that...

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Originally Posted by shaina

I mention grades of produce , now add meat products or wheat's and grains or anything, again if i country gives an order or projections of sales, then the farmers etc go by projections, what is the difference on negotiating with a Country or the EU?? If the UK has something that is in demand in all the EU countries what they won't buy it anymore??

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Not in the same quantities. At some (price) point a substitution effect kicks in. Again, basic economics.

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Originally Posted by shaina

I don't get your logic Cabby or your concept of negotiations?? The EU has more countries they deal with, are you telling me they have better negotiating power than the US?? China?? There is only so low you can go on anything if you buy 10 or you buy 1000000000.... And if you don't need those large amounts what is the difference?? It looks like a lot of savings because you are buying bigger volume, but if you can't sell, what is it good for?? If you buy 10 planes and not 100 how much are you saving??

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Your problem is that you have a misconception about what countries negotiate with each other. The EU and the US and Japan and China are not negotiating prices for specific products, that is ultimately up to the market (maybe not so much in China's case). They are negotiating frameworks for the trade between their countries that will ultimately affect the price that the individual companies in the market will agree on. If Canada can make an item 5% cheaper than the US, but will have to pay an import tariff of 10% that the US does not have to pay, who do you think is able to offer a cheaper price? Go back and read my Japanese gadget/widget example again.

I knew this conversations would go back and forth, with no result :)

All my point is, you think that the EU has some sort of advantage, but you just don't realize that people do talk and know what others are paying, so if the EU is getting some sort of discount, everyone will negotiate for that price, and i do hope you realize that there is only so low anyone can go, meaning that no one sells at a loss unless they want to get rid of something. That makes sense right;).. So when it comes to purchases of 10,000 or 30,000 there is no real discount difference.. Because if you think this way, if the UK is the bigger consumer of certain products/produce, the deal will stay, if not, it will be negotiated, or they can go direct and hope for the best. Your logic makes sense for a small population, but the UK is not a small population, i hope you agree with that....

Your car concept.... Think of this, if you know a dealership is selling cars 5% cheaper than any other one, what happens to the 100's of the rest?? Think of the Price matching method, and also realize who actually eats that differential today...
If you know that the US is buying cars 5% cheaper, than the EU , what would the EU do?? You make it sound like people don't talk, but i will say it again there is a bottom line to everyone, and the manufacturers are not in business to lose money buddy so your teaching of economics are not valid....

I know not only owning my own retail stores and buying direct from manufactures and working for people as well, you can sell anything you want for any price you want Cabby, but if you want to be in business the next year, you have to make profit or make a living , or what is the sense right;)

Getting into Tariffs, is a whole bag of worms, and they are effective to help any local Manufacturing, but it could affect the pocket books of the countries consumers. Really what Trump is doing is brilliant, as long as he keeps things close and costs of locally manufactured products don't go crazy in price.. Am i missing something there in lament terms Cabby??

Your concept makes sense if there is a large volume difference in purchasing, but it would have to be such a significant difference. The EU is going to lose the use of products that the UK did consume if they split, if the UK decides to negotiate direct, and as a Manufacturer, what do you think they are going to do?? Charge more?? Come on Cabby does that really make sense buddy:). And Tariffs and Duties work both ways and can be negotiated, you understand the concept of the USMCA right;)


Again all the answers are going to come soon enough how the UK feels, and then we can actually discuss why either way what happened:D

I'm gonna take the easy way out, here.

We need to have two Brits argue opposite ends of the Brexit yes/no issue.

As an anti-globalist, I fall in the pro camp by default: I think it smacks of the collectivism that - as history has taught us - sucks cawk.

It's just that simple.

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Originally Posted by j2k4

I'm gonna take the easy way out, here.

We need to have two Brits argue opposite ends of the Brexit yes/no issue.

As an anti-globalist, I fall in the pro camp by default: I think it smacks of the collectivism that - as history has taught us - sucks cawk.

It's just that simple.

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To me that sounds like a chicken shit cop out :)

Here we may need a Scottish and Brit if you are watching any of the election, and it will be interesting how this reflects how people think in the US about radical Democrat policies/agendas??

And i am waiting for the Labour party to say the Russians interfered with there elections and Boris should be hung for treason LOL!!!! Oh and don't forget Gerrymandering LOL!!!. Not realizing that even if you take Brexit out of the picture the Labour party ideas and agenda was retarded let alone turned the party into the biggest Antisemitic one as well. Kind of like what is happening in the Democratic party in the US;)..

Again it is confusing to listen too and watch the UK election, the people are speaking, and will be interesting to see what happens in the end:idunno:...

And i guess you can say goodbye to the piece of shit anti semitic garbage Corbyn, and his people, and hopefully get the party back to what it used to be. Sounds familiar in the US and Canada as well;)