The Death Sentance

BTW-

The numbers recorded in the poll are roughly even.

There are more of us neanderthals than you imagined, huh?

I could prevail upon Clocker to make it at least one vote closer, too. :)

As a for instance,do we believe the Canadian pig farmer deserves to live if convicted for his crimes?

http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_k...jump_page.html

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Originally Posted by Gripper

As a for instance,do we believe the Canadian pig farmer deserves to live if convicted for his crimes?

http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_k...jump_page.html

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Good question.

Let's hear an agnostic or an atheist create a cohesive moral argument against killing the pig farmer, assuming, of course, that he's failed the DNA standard. :dabs:

Why are we better people for keeping him alive?

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Originally Posted by j2k4

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Originally Posted by Gripper

As a for instance,do we believe the Canadian pig farmer deserves to live if convicted for his crimes?

http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_k...jump_page.html

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Good question.

Let's hear an agnostic or an atheist create a cohesive moral argument against killing the pig farmer, assuming, of course, that he's failed the DNA standard. :dabs:

Why are we better people for keeping him alive?

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Why are you singling out atheists and agnostics to make a moral argument against the death penalty? What conflicts (moral or doctrine) could they possibly have?

They either think it's wrong or they don't. They do this from their own thought process and not "because the book says so" or "the religion says so".
Obviously it's possible for people of faith to make up their own mind, but I guess their faith plays a big part of that decision.
I have more respect for the viewpoint of the christians that view the death penalty as wrong than the christians who agree with me and support the death penalty (in principle).

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Originally Posted by j2k4

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Originally Posted by Mr JP Fugley

Since when, that post was totally out of the blue and changed the argument. The fact that you tried to do it in a surreptitious way was, at best, disingenuous.

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Pardon, what was the (mis-spelled) title of this thread again? :huh:

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"The Death Sentance"

Not

"someone wrongly detained for several years "

You moved the goalposts, not me.

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Originally Posted by vidcc

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Originally Posted by j2k4

Good question.

Let's hear an agnostic or an atheist create a cohesive moral argument against killing the pig farmer, assuming, of course, that he's failed the DNA standard. :dabs:

Why are we better people for keeping him alive?

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Why are you singling out atheists and agnostics to make a moral argument against the death penalty?

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I think, fairly obviously, he'd had enough of JP running verbal rings around him.

That's about as subtle as I've ever seen j2 be.

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It's quite simple why I wouldn't want the pig farmer put to death, no matter what his crime. We have the means to lock this individual away from society for the rest of his days without comforts or freedoms. We can permanently put him in a place where he can do no more harm to another living soul.

That, to me, is far more preferable than taking away another life.

I don't believe that just because someone else has so little regard for human life that they take it away with no mark on their conscience, I should do the same in the name of retribution. That would bring me down, not all the way, but some way toward their level.

There are, of course, easily dismissed arguments concerning financial matters regarding the cost of keeping a prisoner incarcerated for the rest of his days but even if someone did manage to put forward an argument that I thought held at least some water in a financial respect - which I've never actually seen anyone do - I'd still favour the life without parole option over the death penalty.

Here's my moral argument against the death penalty - Killing people is wrong.

Here's my Christian argument against the death penalty - Thou shalt not kill.

Here's my moral argument for the death penalty - Kill the bastard, he deserves it.

Here's my practical argument for the death penalty - Kill the bastard, it's cheaper.



That, gentle viewer, is the argument, sans bollocks and spin.



(Obviously I did spin it a bit, but hey, whatcha gonna do.)

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Originally Posted by Mr JP Fugley

Here's my moral argument against the death penalty - Killing people is wrong.

Here's my Christian argument against the death penalty - Thou shalt not kill.

Here's my moral argument for the death penalty - Kill the bastard, he deserves it.

Here's my practical argument for the death penalty - Kill the bastard, it's cheaper.



That, gentle viewer, is the argument, sans bollocks and spin.


(Obviously I did spin it a bit, but hey, whatcha gonna do.)

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Bollocks is in the eye of the beholder, I'd say.

As I've also said, we've done this before, and in much the same way...those who are against the death penalty are just as selective in their reasonings as those they deride as "unenlightened".

That presumptive air of authority is really just your upturned nose blocking your view of reality.

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Originally Posted by j2k4

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Originally Posted by Mr JP Fugley

Here's my moral argument against the death penalty - Killing people is wrong.

Here's my Christian argument against the death penalty - Thou shalt not kill.

Here's my moral argument for the death penalty - Kill the bastard, he deserves it.

Here's my practical argument for the death penalty - Kill the bastard, it's cheaper.



That, gentle viewer, is the argument, sans bollocks and spin.


(Obviously I did spin it a bit, but hey, whatcha gonna do.)

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Bollocks is in the eye of the beholder, I'd say.

As I've also said, we've done this before, and in much the same way...those who are against the death penalty are just as selective in their reasonings as those they deride as "unenlightened".

That presumptive air of authority is really just your upturned nose blocking your view of reality.

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There's nothing selective involved, as can be seen by my reasoning, which you quoted. Neither is there any air of authority. I have my opinion, I have my reasons for holding it and have clearly stated both.

I also cannot even begin to understand how any Christian can support the death penalty. The two must be mutually exclusive.

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Originally Posted by j2k4

...those who are against the death penalty are just as selective in their reasonings as those they deride as "unenlightened"

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But not those who support the death penalty, I presume?

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Originally Posted by Mr JP Fugley

Here's my moral argument against the death penalty - Killing people is wrong.

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I agree but change it to killing innocent people is wrong. As I said before I don't believe in the afterlife, that and as there is no god there is no judgment being made upon the murderer by him.
So given that (from my stance) if you take the one life the innocent person has then you don't deserve your one life.

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Originally Posted by Mr JP Fugley

Here's my Christian argument against the death penalty - Thou shalt not kill.

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Which is why I respect that view on consistency, Jesus stopped an execution saying "let he who is without sin....." I just don't see how Christianity and the death penalty go together.
It's possible to go with the eye for an eye part if you are not Christian, but IMO Jesus was rebelling against the old testament slightly :unsure:

it doesn't matter how big a pile of junk you can be, you can always change, and people do change when they have the chance to do it

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Originally Posted by vidcc

I agree but change it to killing innocent people is wrong. As I said before I don't believe in the afterlife, that and as there is no god there is no judgment being made upon the murderer by him.
So given that (from my stance) if you take the one life the innocent person has then you don't deserve your one life.

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Originally Posted by Mr JP Fugley

Here's my Christian argument against the death penalty - Thou shalt not kill.

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Which is why I respect that view on consistency, Jesus stopped an execution saying "let he who is without sin....." I just don't see how Christianity and the death penalty go together.
It's possible to go with the eye for an eye part if you are not Christian, but IMO Jesus was rebelling against the old testament slightly :unsure:

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Re the Old Testament thing. Christians (at least Catholics) believe that He came from God to not only fulfill scripture but also to bring a new covenant from God. A new deal as it were, to replace the one we had broken earlier.

With regard to Scripture, the ten commandments (old) say Thou shalt not kill. The teachings of Jesus (new) are forgiveness and not taking lives, as you point out. So I agree, the death penalty is not consistant with Christian beliefs.

The "eye for an eye thing" is very much Old Testament and again not consistant with Christ's teachings that we should "turn the other cheek".

I have to say I find the concept of Christians who base their beliefs primarilly on the Old Testament to be a strange one. Why not base Christianity on what Christ taught. That seems like the way to me.

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Originally Posted by Mr JP Fugley

Why not base Christianity on what Christ taught. That seems like the way to me.

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I agree wholeheartedly; however, as a human I am less-than perfect, and harbor vengeful thoughts. :)

I couldn't bear to enter the afterlife with a totally clean slate, you see.

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Originally Posted by j2k4

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Originally Posted by Mr JP Fugley

Why not base Christianity on what Christ taught. That seems like the way to me.

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I agree wholeheartedly; however, as a human I am less-than perfect, and harbor vengeful thoughts. :)

I couldn't bear to enter the afterlife with a totally clean slate, you see.

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That's cool, pas de problem. Believe what you believe and follow whatever system of morality you empathise with.

However please don't claim to be a Christian when your beliefs are fundamentally at odds with those of the person you profess to follow.

Christianity is not a fashion statement.

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Originally Posted by Mr JP Fugley

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Originally Posted by j2k4

I agree wholeheartedly; however, as a human I am less-than perfect, and harbor vengeful thoughts. :)

I couldn't bear to enter the afterlife with a totally clean slate, you see.

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That's cool, pas de problem. Believe what you believe and follow whatever system of morality you empathise with.

However please don't claim to be a Christian when your beliefs are fundamentally at odds with those of the person you profess to follow.

Christianity is not a fashion statement.

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Well, then.

Shall we see where that takes us. :dry:

It doesn't take us anywhere new.

Christ is quite clear on the concept of killing other people. It's really not open to debate. At least not from what I have read or been taught.

If you feel that you may be able to quote Him saying something, or teaching something, which supports capital punishment I would be more than happy to read it.

Seriously.