"Prophet Mohammed Lovers"

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Originally Posted by S3v3N

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Now to the bit you might find difficult. The Koran, like the Bible developed over a couple of hundred years. Scholars are working on ancient Yemeni texts discovered in an old mosque back in the 1970s. These earliest texts show differences from the current Koran and subtle variations in emphasis. I believe something like 35,000 microfiche copies were made of these early texts and are currently being worked on in both Germany and Yemen.

The only religious text that was handed out in one complete go was the Book of Mormon (and that is completely mental imho)

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i would like you to put some reference .

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Book of Mormon or the archaeological work on the early Koran fragments?

Kind of predictable, Les.

Not your post like, the response.

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Originally Posted by S3v3N

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The Bible is made up of two parts. The Jewish Old Testament and the Christian New Testament. Both books were written by a number of authors over a period of time. The Old Testament was written over several hundred years and the New Testament over a period of a couple of hundred years or so. There were many texts from the Christian era not included in the final version drawn up around the year 400AD. One of those includes the Gospel of Judas (although he wasn't crucified instead of Jesus to the best of my knowledge).

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don't you think that the authors that wrote it have changed certain things .. b'cuz God says so in Koran ..

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I personally think the Bible and the Koran are a mixture of myths and religious traditions from the Middle East and not divine at all.

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Originally Posted by Biggles

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Originally Posted by S3v3N

don't you think that the authors that wrote it have changed certain things .. b'cuz God says so in Koran ..

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I personally think the Bible and the Koran are a mixture of myths and religious traditions from the Middle East and not divine at all.

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:O

You've blown it now.

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Book of Mormon or the archaeological work on the early Koran fragments?

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Book of Mormon "never heard of it" .. will do some search ..

Islam started in Mecca in Saudi Arabia 1400 years ago , there are copies of Koran from that era .. all Muslims have the same copy .

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Originally Posted by Mr JP Fugley

Not your post like, the response.

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I did say he wouldn't like it.

However, in the interests of hands across the sea and all that stuff, this is a pretty balanced, if long, article on the subject.

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/199901/koran


Assuming he means the Koran - I am not wasting my time on Joseph Smith's amazing magic spectacles.

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Originally Posted by Mr JP Fugley

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Originally Posted by Biggles

I personally think the Bible and the Koran are a mixture of myths and religious traditions from the Middle East and not divine at all.

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:O

You've blown it now.

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:unsure: I did say it was my personal view like.

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Originally Posted by Biggles

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Originally Posted by Mr JP Fugley

Not your post like, the response.

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I did say he wouldn't like it.

However, in the interests of hands across the sea and all that stuff, this is a pretty balanced, if long, article on the subject.

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/199901/koran


Assuming he means the Koran - I am not wasting my time on Joseph Smith's amazing magic spectacles.

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You've got to remember that he is dealing in Fact and not Faith. So you are kind of (forgive me for this) pishing into the wind. Any evidence you can provide, no matter how well researched and corroborated, must be wrong because he already knows the truth.

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Originally Posted by S3v3N

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Book of Mormon or the archaeological work on the early Koran fragments?

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Book of Mormon "never heard of it" .. will do some search ..

Islam started in Mecca in Saudi Arabia 1400 years ago , there are copies of Koran from that era .. all Muslims have the same copy .

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maybe they should print one each, like.

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Originally Posted by Snee

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Originally Posted by S3v3N

Book of Mormon "never heard of it" .. will do some search ..

Islam started in Mecca in Saudi Arabia 1400 years ago , there are copies of Koran from that era .. all Muslims have the same copy .

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maybe they should print one each, like.

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:drummer:

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Originally Posted by Snee

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Originally Posted by S3v3N

Book of Mormon "never heard of it" .. will do some search ..

Islam started in Mecca in Saudi Arabia 1400 years ago , there are copies of Koran from that era .. all Muslims have the same copy .

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maybe they should print one each, like.

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:glag:

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Originally Posted by Mr JP Fugley

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Originally Posted by Biggles

I did say he wouldn't like it.

However, in the interests of hands across the sea and all that stuff, this is a pretty balanced, if long, article on the subject.

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/199901/koran


Assuming he means the Koran - I am not wasting my time on Joseph Smith's amazing magic spectacles.

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You've got to remember that he is dealing in Fact and not Faith. So you are kind of (forgive me for this) pishing into the wind. Any evidence you can provide, no matter how well researched and corroborated, must be wrong because he already knows the truth.

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Fair point, well presented - not that it matters I suppose. Go to go and collect No 2 child from her mate's house. Dad's taxi service FTW :(

TTFN mate.

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You've got to remember that he is dealing in Fact and not Faith. So you are kind of (forgive me for this) pishing into the wind. Any evidence you can provide, no matter how well researched and corroborated, must be wrong because he already knows the truth.

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the fact that i am posting here , and looking all over the internet ,talking to people from different religions means that i am in search of the truth , and open minded to any thing that can convince me logically that i am wrong .

do i have doubts in God ? yea some times.
do i have doubts in Islam ? yea some times .
but tell now the only thing that i can find near the truth is the Koran and that god exists.

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Originally Posted by S3v3N

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Now to the bit you might find difficult. The Koran, like the Bible developed over a couple of hundred years. Scholars are working on ancient Yemeni texts discovered in an old mosque back in the 1970s. These earliest texts show differences from the current Koran and subtle variations in emphasis. I believe something like 35,000 microfiche copies were made of these early texts and are currently being worked on in both Germany and Yemen.

The only religious text that was handed out in one complete go was the Book of Mormon (and that is completely mental imho)

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wrong !

Koran was made in 20 years only . god send Jebrae'l " dunno what you call him -angel from god-" different times in different occasions to the prophet Mohamed .. and told him different parts of Koran .. prophet Mohamed tell the writers to write it .. and Koran is the same tell know , all Muslims every where have the same copy .

there are copies from the Koran from the "Osman Ben Afan" era which is very shortly after prophet Mohamed died.

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Indeed, you have an open mind.

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Indeed, you have an open mind.

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open minded doesn't mean that i have to approve every thing that is said .

what he said was totally wrong , and i read the article he referred to and it doesn't say nothing or prove anything and there is no evidence that it's true .
i hope the German scientist publish what he finds and tell us the differences between the copy he found and the known Koran if it's true .

Yeah but twice recently people who profess to be Muslim have simply stated that others were "wrong".

Not that they disagree, that the other person was "wrong!"

You must see how that is theologically arrogant.

To say nothing of a chap who clearly doesn't speak English very well giving English lessons.

You must see how that would come across as linguistically arrogant.

I thought 'Do androids dream of electric sheep' was a wai better read than any bible/koran etc... :smilie4:

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Originally Posted by benchez

I thought 'Do androids dream of electric sheep' was a wai better read than any bible/koran etc... :smilie4:

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Dick

:lol: Indeed.

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Originally Posted by S3v3N

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Indeed, you have an open mind.

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open minded doesn't mean that i have to approve every thing that is said .

what he said was totally wrong , and i read the article he referred to and it doesn't say nothing or prove anything and there is no evidence that it's true .
i hope the German scientist publish what he finds and tell us the differences between the copy he found and the known Koran if it's true .

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For what I said to be "totally wrong" the work on the Yemen documents would have to show an exact match to modern copies. The article and others I have seen suggest otherwise. It may be that the differences are not large. In works on Christian texts the general argument is that the message is not substantially different and therefore variations do not matter. I am reasonably confident that if earlier versions of the Koran are shown to be a little different there will be

1) shock
2) re-appraisal of the new texts
3) a realisation that nothing much has changed
4) Islam will just carry on pretty much as before
5) Some Moslems might go traditional and say they like the older one better.

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Originally Posted by Biggles

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Originally Posted by S3v3N

open minded doesn't mean that i have to approve every thing that is said .

what he said was totally wrong , and i read the article he referred to and it doesn't say nothing or prove anything and there is no evidence that it's true .
i hope the German scientist publish what he finds and tell us the differences between the copy he found and the known Koran if it's true .

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For what I said to be "totally wrong" the work on the Yemen documents would have to show an exact match to modern copies. The article and others I have seen suggest otherwise. It may be that the differences are not large. In works on Christian texts the general argument is that the message is not substantially different and therefore variations do not matter. I am reasonably confident that if earlier versions of the Koran are shown to be a little different there will be

1) shock
2) re-appraisal of the new texts
3) a realisation that nothing much has changed
4) Islam will just carry on pretty much as before
5) Some Moslems might go traditional and say they like the older one better.

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Doesn't work with absolutes, mate. Even for the open-minded.

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Originally Posted by Mr JP Fugley

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Originally Posted by Biggles

For what I said to be "totally wrong" the work on the Yemen documents would have to show an exact match to modern copies. The article and others I have seen suggest otherwise. It may be that the differences are not large. In works on Christian texts the general argument is that the message is not substantially different and therefore variations do not matter. I am reasonably confident that if earlier versions of the Koran are shown to be a little different there will be

1) shock
2) re-appraisal of the new texts
3) a realisation that nothing much has changed
4) Islam will just carry on pretty much as before
5) Some Moslems might go traditional and say they like the older one better.

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Doesn't work with absolutes, mate. Even for the open-minded.

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I may be wrong but I suspect absolute may be relative if faced with an incontrovertible fact. The Church fathers thought Galileo a liability and his ideas faith shattering. However, the paradigm changed and the Church adapted effortlessly and even set up its own observatory. I predict that if earlier copies of the Koran are shown to have variations the Islamic scholars will take ownership and use them to teach with. After an initial wobble the wheel will continue to turn. Yes I know it is a shocking concept now but once absorbed people won't even think about it.

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Originally Posted by Biggles

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Originally Posted by Mr JP Fugley

Doesn't work with absolutes, mate. Even for the open-minded.

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I may be wrong but I suspect absolute may be relative if faced with an incontrovertible fact. The Church fathers thought Galileo a liability and his ideas faith shattering. However, the paradigm changed and the Church adapted effortlessly and even set up its own observatory. I predict that if earlier copies of the Koran are shown to have variations the Islamic scholars will take ownership and use them to teach with. After an initial wobble the wheel will continue to turn. Yes I know it is a shocking concept now but once absorbed people won't even think about it.

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In short, you feel that Islam may be going through it's "Galileo" moment and adapting itself to the modern World. If you are right we are witnesses to a seminal moment for a major religion. That would be pretty awesome.

Do you think the hierarchy are discussing this behind figurative closed doors and will only let the masses know when they have considered the full ramifications.

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Originally Posted by Mr JP Fugley

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Originally Posted by Biggles

I may be wrong but I suspect absolute may be relative if faced with an incontrovertible fact. The Church fathers thought Galileo a liability and his ideas faith shattering. However, the paradigm changed and the Church adapted effortlessly and even set up its own observatory. I predict that if earlier copies of the Koran are shown to have variations the Islamic scholars will take ownership and use them to teach with. After an initial wobble the wheel will continue to turn. Yes I know it is a shocking concept now but once absorbed people won't even think about it.

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In short, you feel that Islam may be going through it's "Galileo" moment and adapting itself to the modern World. If you are right we are witnesses to a seminal moment for a major religion. That would be pretty awesome.

Do you think the hierarchy are discussing this behind figurative closed doors and will only let the masses know when they have considered the full ramifications.

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Islamic scholars have the original copies of the documents discovered and are quietly working through them too and I think are in contact with the German University involved. It will undoubtedly be a slow process as the current view of the Koran doesn't allow for this sort of revision. However, in a world where everyone has access to the interwebs such information cannot be ignored lest others take ownership of the exposition of what reasonably they consider their texts - a far more intolerable outcome.

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Originally Posted by Biggles

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Originally Posted by Mr JP Fugley

In short, you feel that Islam may be going through it's "Galileo" moment and adapting itself to the modern World. If you are right we are witnesses to a seminal moment for a major religion. That would be pretty awesome.

Do you think the hierarchy are discussing this behind figurative closed doors and will only let the masses know when they have considered the full ramifications.

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Islamic scholars have the original copies of the documents discovered and are quietly working through them too and I think are in contact with the German University involved. It will undoubtedly be a slow process as the current view of the Koran doesn't allow for this sort of revision. However, in a world where everyone has access to the interwebs such information cannot be ignored lest others take ownership of the exposition of what reasonably they consider their texts - a far more intolerable outcome.

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So, if there is any dubiety they must claim it as their own, rather than leave it in the hand of the infidel. That makes sense, for pragmatic reasons if nothing else.

I believe we have done the same thing with the origins of the Bible and in particular the Gospels.

For religion to deny science is ludicrous.

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Originally Posted by Mr JP Fugley

For religion to deny science is ludicrous.

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what about science denying religion

science never denied religion , our religion encourage us to search in all matters of science , besides that there r many scientific discoveries in koran as:
1- god told us that the moon was split into haves equally from 1400 year and from short time USA discovered that the moon was split into two parts and who wants to know may visit nasa site

Do what? :blink:

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Originally Posted by Mr JP Fugley

For religion to deny science is ludicrous.

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Still happens ... look at the USA where in some parts of the country many people simply deny Darwin's evolutionary theory and replace it by some 'Adam and Eve'-story. :frusty:

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Originally Posted by Barbarossa

Do what? :blink:

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Visit nasa I think he said :P

yes visit NASA site
http://www.nasa.gov/home/index.html

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Originally Posted by moslem01

science never denied religion , our religion encourage us to search in all matters of science , besides that there r many scientific discoveries in koran as:
1- god told us that the moon was split into haves equally from 1400 year and from short time USA discovered that the moon was split into two parts and who wants to know may visit nasa site

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Moon is still in one piece here :blink:

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Originally Posted by moslem01

yes visit NASA site
http://www.nasa.gov/home/index.html

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There's nothing on this page of any relevence :eyebrows:

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Originally Posted by Biggles

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Originally Posted by moslem01

science never denied religion , our religion encourage us to search in all matters of science , besides that there r many scientific discoveries in koran as:
1- god told us that the moon was split into haves equally from 1400 year and from short time USA discovered that the moon was split into two parts and who wants to know may visit nasa site

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Moon is still in one piece here :blink:

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of course it is one piece it was split into halves and returned back one piece
:blink:

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Originally Posted by moslem01

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Originally Posted by Biggles

Moon is still in one piece here :blink:

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of course it is one piece it was split into halves and returned back one piece
:blink:

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Why? :blink:

why returned into one piece or why it was split ?

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Originally Posted by Barbarossa

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Originally Posted by moslem01

of course it is one piece it was split into halves and returned back one piece
:blink:

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Why? :blink:

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To get to the creamy centre obviousment

http://www.oreillygmt.eu/images/creme_egg.jpg

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Originally Posted by moslem01

why returned into one piece or why it was split ?

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Well, both really :dabs: