Ontologically speaking, how can GOD be proven

[QUOTE=MaxOverlord;3274224]

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Originally Posted by Recursacro

@Sez:

I suppose you could consider me an atheist. I practice many Buddhist values and beliefs though. I am against killing because I think all animals are equal. I don't kill insects, and I don't like it when people say that they have pets. One can't own another. Because of this, I'm also vegetarian.

I have one question for you, Sez. How has God helped you?

@MaxOverlord:

God is a name. I capitalize it because it's a proper noun, not because I worship the being the name represents. As for the "not knowing who my mother is", that was sarcasm aimed at Sez because of his questions on belief. You'll understand if you read his post.

I haven't much else to say towards you, except for that I ask for you try to contribute to the thread, and not pick apart my so-called logically grammatical errors.

So, the question for all of you:

How has God helped any of you?[/QUOTE

The thing I find interesting is that your sentence structure alone tells me you believe in a higher power. Now some may call it God...others The Way...movie lovers might prefer The Force....I also find it interesting that there are a few Buddhist's or those who practice some of the teachings to be the ones attacking Christianity......but then again..mans primal urge for dominance..which is what you are doing by attacking Christianity..trying to obtain dominance...is a program you can't uninstall...no matter how many days under the Bodhi tree. But hey...I couldn't care less what your validation rituals are..whether they be Communion or tossing tobacco into the air in the presence of an eagle....anyway...I believe you sincere in your interest as to what God has done to help any of us...

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If there is a God then He/She has helped me a lot in my life. I have had a lot of accidents, illnesses in my lifetime. I have more stitches than a balaclava. I have come through them all in reasonable health for my age.

On the other hand I must also blame God for putting me in those predicaments. He/She must also take the blame. The way disasters and miracles are treated by religious people never ceases to amaze me. I can imagine the conversation between God and Moses as;

'O.K. Mo, You do the disasters and I will do the miracles'.:whistling

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Originally Posted by sez

@recursacro,i don't really know what side you are on in this as from what i understand,you are saying that you don't believe in faith i.e you don't have it.However,last I checked both of these theories can't go the whole ten yard if they were to be put through a thorough scrutiny and clearly at some point they both shall come down to faith.Now that's that.

If you are an atheist, why do you grimace when drowning a caught mouse? If you are an atheist,why do you capture a fly or spider and let it go outside?
More generally, if you believe that there is no connection between yourself and other creatures, whether that be an "eye in the sky" entity, or some form of collective unconsciousness, or any other "larger than yourself" phenomenon, why is there any harm whatever in killing a creature?
DOA answers:
- There is some selfish rationale to maintaining an eco-balance. If we all killed creatures willy-nilly, there'd be no creatures left.
Answer: nonsense. This is one mouse; one fly.
- You are a product of society/your physiological emotions. It is conditioned into you to shrink from needless death.
Answer: That is simply passing the buck, pretending you are a victim. You should be able to throw off that pressure and believe in - and practice - your own atheist philosophy.
So do all atheists kill creatures as it is convenient? If not, why not?

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I am sorry(there I go again!) but I take offence at your statement. What you are basically saying is that non-religious people can't be good people. What utter claptrap. I have met many good and bad people on both sides of the 'divide'. How you can associate compassion to other living creatures as the property of religions. Especially as those same religions have allowed their members to slaughter millions of people of other religions in the name of their religion. If all religious people practice what they preached then I think, maybe, you would have a very small chance of being correct.:angry:

[QUOTE=bigboab;3274443]

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Originally Posted by MaxOverlord

If there is a God then He/She has helped me a lot in my life. I have had a lot of accidents, illnesses in my lifetime. I have more stitches than a balaclava. I have come through them all in reasonable health for my age.

On the other hand I must also blame God for putting me in those predicaments. He/She must also take the blame. The way disasters and miracles are treated by religious people never ceases to amaze me. I can imagine the conversation between God and Moses as;

'O.K. Mo, You do the disasters and I will do the miracles'.:whistling

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Ok, bigboab, this is the sort of answer that I was expecting.

Let's think about a couple things, please:
Back when I skateboarded (did for about 4 years - got sponsored by the local skate shop) I never broke a bone. Now, I can say that God was there watching over me, and made it so that even though I ripped up my back so it was raw, I never broke a bone.
OR
I can look at it from a more secular point of view and acknowledge that I drink 32 oz. of milk a day, and I eat extremely well. I also have very fast reflexes, and I know how to fall. (there's a technique)

You say you've been sick... who hasn't? Stitches are basically routine, and I've had tons of them. I had a half inch deep gash in my chin (from skating) and it healed really well. I even went snowboarding the next day.

I think what you are saying, in logical terms, is that you have a good immune system. Now, if I say this, you're probably going to think to yourself: "Well, thank you, Lord. I appreciate the good immune system."

Do you think it has anything to do with genetics and inheritance?

Moreover, don't blame God for putting you into those predicaments. Take the blame yourself. It's your fault. Say it to yourself: "It was my fault that I got sick and had so many stitches. I should be more careful, and I should pay more attention to how I eat and my vitamin intake. I'm going to go wash my hands!"

Now, please don't take offence to that up there. I'm just trying to take everything and put it into a more secular view, so you can look at it from there.

I'd also like to thank you for indirectly defending me against Sez's assumptions. Thanks.

[QUOTE=Recursacro;3274572]

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Originally Posted by bigboab

Ok, bigboab, this is the sort of answer that I was expecting.

Let's think about a couple things, please:
Back when I skateboarded (did for about 4 years - got sponsored by the local skate shop) I never broke a bone. Now, I can say that God was there watching over me, and made it so that even though I ripped up my back so it was raw, I never broke a bone.
OR
I can look at it from a more secular point of view and acknowledge that I drink 32 oz. of milk a day, and I eat extremely well. I also have very fast reflexes, and I know how to fall. (there's a technique)

You say you've been sick... who hasn't? Stitches are basically routine, and I've had tons of them. I had a half inch deep gash in my chin (from skating) and it healed really well. I even went snowboarding the next day.

I think what you are saying, in logical terms, is that you have a good immune system. Now, if I say this, you're probably going to think to yourself: "Well, thank you, Lord. I appreciate the good immune system."

Do you think it has anything to do with genetics and inheritance?

Moreover, don't blame God for putting you into those predicaments. Take the blame yourself. It's your fault. Say it to yourself: "It was my fault that I got sick and had so many stitches. I should be more careful, and I should pay more attention to how I eat and my vitamin intake. I'm going to go wash my hands!"

Now, please don't take offence to that up there. I'm just trying to take everything and put it into a more secular view, so you can look at it from there.

I'd also like to thank you for indirectly defending me against Sez's assumptions. Thanks.

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What is the point of a God that can't take the blame for things that go wrong. " Thank you Lord for allowing my son/daughter to be blown up, burned, buried alive etc on 9/11. It was their fault, they should not have gone to work that day.

p.s. You might have given them a warning.

I am sorry but you have your head buried in the sand if you can't see, for example, that people killed in natural disasters are not to blame in any way. I could go on and on but it would be pointless.

[QUOTE=bigboab;3274669]

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Originally Posted by Recursacro

What is the point of a God that can't take the blame for things that go wrong. " Thank you Lord for allowing my son/daughter to be blown up, burned, buried alive etc on 9/11. It was their fault, they should not have gone to work that day.

p.s. You might have given them a warning.

I am sorry but you have your head buried in the sand if you can't see, for example, that people killed in natural disasters are not to blame in any way. I could go on and on but it would be pointless.

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...i don't assume that God is to take the blame for my own actions..I would say that is more the attitude of a child...only I'm not sure that a child..shall we say ages 3 thru 6? has the capacity to reason a God in their mind...mind meaning consciousness. i know people who seem to only wanna credit God with the bad things in life...thus negating any responsibility toward the individual. "free will" or not...ultimately it's you and you alone who act...I don't necessarily believe God to be too involved in the everyday actions of Man...let alone subjecting He into minute details of our ritualistic lives. I prefer a Watcher...if you will...a very slight nudge here-not there. Patience and Grace....yielding always to the infinite Truth. If there is a God...and I don't know with any amount of certainty that there is...I would hope just a little bit that I would get some credit for my own ability to decide. I've been given a consciousness thru the apple...let me use it.

[QUOTE=MaxOverlord;3274808]

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Originally Posted by bigboab

...i don't assume that God is to take the blame for my own actions..I would say that is more the attitude of a child...only I'm not sure that a child..shall we say ages 3 thru 6? has the capacity to reason a God in their mind...mind meaning consciousness. i know people who seem to only wanna credit God with the bad things in life...thus negating any responsibility toward the individual. "free will" or not...ultimately it's you and you alone who act...I don't necessarily believe God to be too involved in the everyday actions of Man...let alone subjecting He into minute details of our ritualistic lives. I prefer a Watcher...if you will...a very slight nudge here-not there. Patience and Grace....yielding always to the infinite Truth. If there is a God...and I don't know with any amount of certainty that there is...I would hope just a little bit that I would get some credit for my own ability to decide. I've been given a consciousness thru the apple...let me use it.

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You are talking more like a Buddhist that a Christian;

[QUOTE]Buddha taught people how to realize enlightenment for themselves. He taught that awakening comes through one's own direct experience, not through beliefs and dogmas.[/QUOTE]

My thoughts exactly.:)

I think I will become a Buddhist. I have the fugure for it.:lol:

[QUOTE=bigboab;3274928][QUOTE=MaxOverlord;3274808]

You are talking more like a Buddhist that a Christian;

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Buddha taught people how to realize enlightenment for themselves. He taught that awakening comes through one's own direct experience, not through beliefs and dogmas.[/QUOTE]

My thoughts exactly.:)

I think I will become a Buddhist. I have the fugure for it.:lol:

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I'm curious bb...how does a Christian talk? I believe I mentioned the concepts of Grace as well as a reference to the apple which Eve bit. I acknowledge Truth,which is a reference to Jesus..."I am the way,the truth,and the life." I imagined His play within my own daily life..however minimal. I believe you are hearing and or picking trigger words from my sentences....next time try hearing what I'm saying..not listening for what you want to hear me say.

[QUOTE=MaxOverlord;3275134][QUOTE=bigboab;3274928][QUOTE=MaxOverlord;3274808]

You are talking more like a Buddhist that a Christian;



I'm curious bb...how does a Christian talk? I believe I mentioned the concepts of Grace as well as a reference to the apple which Eve bit. I acknowledge Truth,which is a reference to Jesus..."I am the way,the truth,and the life." I imagined His play within my own daily life..however minimal. I believe you are hearing and or picking trigger words from my sentences....next time try hearing what I'm saying..not listening for what you want to hear me say.[/QUOTE]

That would be difficult to do considering the fragmentation of your posts.:)

I will ask the next question once again

Who was the first person to be in contact with your god, where and how and witnesses present?

[QUOTE=bigboab;3275189][QUOTE=MaxOverlord;3275134][QUOTE=bigboab;3274928]

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Originally Posted by MaxOverlord

You are talking more like a Buddhist that a Christian;



I'm curious bb...how does a Christian talk? I believe I mentioned the concepts of Grace as well as a reference to the apple which Eve bit. I acknowledge Truth,which is a reference to Jesus..."I am the way,the truth,and the life." I imagined His play within my own daily life..however minimal. I believe you are hearing and or picking trigger words from my sentences....next time try hearing what I'm saying..not listening for what you want to hear me say.[/QUOTE]

That would be difficult to do considering the fragmentation of your posts.:)

I will ask the next question once again

Who was the first person to be in contact with your god, where and how and witnesses present?

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[QUOTE=MaxOverlord;3275300][QUOTE=bigboab;3275189]You'll convert me yet. I think I have just had confirmation. Ontologically speaking.:)
I dont see any point in discussing religion. difficult questions never get answered. A bit like politics.

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I will ask the next question once again
Who was the first person to be in contact with your god, where and how and witnesses present?

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How about who was the first person to be in contact with your mollusc ancestors and were there any witnesses when you changed from nothing to some chemical soup to fish and finally to the super complex being that you are today.Do you really believe that you are relatives with fish or the fish of today for that matter are the human beings of tomorrow?
Do you know how mathematically harmonious your DNA double helix is to just have been as a result of randomness?
Either you are blaming God for something that happened to you or you are just ignorant(regardless of the level of your education).Be an atheist fine! just don't be attacking other people's beliefs like that.
Numbers don't lie and you clearly are in the minority,the majority of the world believes in the existence of a higher power and am glad am on the winning side.
Just out of curiosity,whats your take on homosexuality?

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Originally Posted by sez

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I will ask the next question once again
Who was the first person to be in contact with your god, where and how and witnesses present?

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How about who was the first person to be in contact with your mollusc(mollusk, Ive founde u cant right verrie good) ;) ancestors and were there any witnesses when you changed from nothing to some chemical soup to fish and finally to the super complex being that you are today.Do you really believe that you are relatives with fish or the fish of today for that matter are the human beings of tomorrow?
Do you know how mathematically harmonious your DNA double helix is to just have been as a result of randomness?
Either you are blaming God for something that happened to you or you are just ignorant(regardless of the level of your education).Be an atheist fine! just don't be attacking other people's beliefs like that.
Numbers don't lie and you clearly are in the minority,the majority of the world believes in the existence of a higher power and am glad am on the winning side.
Just out of curiosity,whats your take on homosexuality?

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To answer someone's question from the previous page as to how a Christian talks: Like a narrow-minded and ignorant moron. See the post above me, and all other posts from Sez.

Sez,
You did the same damn thing with my question. Why don't you just try to answer the questions we ask you? I asked who created God. You asked who created soil and dirt. That's not the point!

Here,
BigBoab asks a question, and you steer away from providing an answer. Do you not like to think that your mind-control group has flawed their story? Is there something in there that doesn't make sense? Oh, just revert to Faith, everything'll be just fine if we just let someone else run our lives. Hell, why not be Communist. We don't need to pick our jobs either.

Another point:
You bring up DNA quite often. Yup, ok, God's a great mathematician, and he worked out all of it. Praise the Lord! That's crap. We evolved. We are complex beings and some things have yet to be explained, but no one being created us and all of our world. Which, by the way, why would God create other solar systems if he only care about us? He just got bored? The DNA isn't a result of haphazard evolution, it's a result of our bodies making a code from a very primitive one, to a complex one that can support ourselves over time.

Moving on...
Do I believe the fish of today are the people of tomorrow? No...
We are the people of tomorrow, I'm sure. Well, as long as there is land to walk on. Fish wouldn't need to evolve because they still have food in the water. Why would they change to come on land if it's over populated with people like you?

Now, as for your second to last statement. Wow. Does that not seem like a group of people trying to take control of others? The winning side? Is this a war? Is it a game? ;) So God favors your side to anyone else's, right? I was watching a movie the other day, and some vampire was going to die. He asked if God would let him in. (Godric, his name was, I think) She said God was forgiving, and would let anyone in.... What's the point in Hell then?

Oh, and Sez, the majority of people may be religious, but the majority of religious people don't know the square root of 144. Do you?

My views on homosexuality:
Anyone has the right to have the sexuality they prefer. As long as it abides by the laws of the state (not having sex with kids and such). I also support same-sex marriage 100%.

[QUOTE=sez;3275480]

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I will ask the next question once again
Who was the first person to be in contact with your god, where and how and witnesses present?

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How about who was the first person to be in contact with your mollusc ancestors and were there any witnesses when you changed from nothing to some chemical soup to fish and finally to the super complex being that you are today.Do you really believe that you are relatives with fish or the fish of today for that matter are the human beings of tomorrow?
Do you know how mathematically harmonious your DNA double helix is to just have been as a result of randomness?
Either you are blaming God for something that happened to you or you are just ignorant(regardless of the level of your education).Be an atheist fine! just don't be attacking other people's beliefs like that.
Numbers don't lie and you clearly are in the minority,the majority of the world believes in the existence of a higher power and am glad am on the winning side.
Just out of curiosity,whats your take on homosexuality?[/QUOTE]

What the hell has that to do with this thread.:angry: I believe in live and let live within the moral and social structure of the country. I definitely don't go round doors or stand in the street peddling religion. Does the majority of the world attend church? I don't think so.

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Originally Posted by sez

Show me a single piece of non-circumstantial evidence disprove the existence of God, and then I will make my decision on this.

The theory of evolution is just that.. you know just a theory. Scientists themselves have argued against this theory, that it violates natural laws, such as the second law on thermodynamics and so on.

God is a spiritual being, not a physical one.You obviously can't use natural laws to prove a spiritual being.You use natural laws to prove physical objects and God is above these laws.Since He created everything, He can bend natural laws at His will..which account for events, situations, miracles, etc. which science cannot explain.

We see God's creation all around us. His creation is a manifestation and proof that there must be someone responsible for all these things. In science class, we studied about the universal physical constants like gravitational constant. These constants are so perfect that if it's a little lower or higher, our world will be in chaos. What's the probability that accident and randomity has brought about our orderly world? I won't leave all the explanation to "chance". The perfect explanation for everything is the existence of God. :yes:

if you are the type that believes your computer would have self upgraded its OS from windows 98 to windows 7 then my bad but otherwise go read on the DNA double helix then come and explain as to how chaos could have come up with such order.

The truth is God has put a God-shaped hole in the heart of every human being.His plan is for man to find and worship Him. History shows that mankind has acknowledged an all-powerful supernatural being since time immemorial. You can find ancient people worshipping the moon, sun, stars, calf, snakes, their ancestors, or any other thing. Nobody taught them about God. Their natural instinct told them there is someone great out there...and that someone is God. Now, it's up to the individual to acknowledge or reject the existence of God,its a faith thing you aren't supposed to be swayed by evidence.

Also did you know that blackholes, as accepted as they are by scientists as being fact are yet to be proven by solid evidence?just goes to show how naive you are to put your trust in such people.

If you didn't know,in essence you are saying you are just meat as you have no soul.

Plus i think it should tell you something that everything on this planet has an opposite(all explained in less than 1000 words in genesis).
Like how do you explain evil and good.(your sushi and mollusc ancestors know something?)I mean these two forces ought to have come from somewhere,right?and please don't tell me you think that evil and good are also a myth :P

I want to call you an idiot,but i'll wait and see if you have any strong evidence to disprove the existence of God.
imo i think people like you are just guys who have a problem with religious folks.

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Hey, you stole my ideeas :ermm:

To the quasi-intellect,this is not spelling bee i advise you to go back to school instead of blowing the horn on how uncultivated you are with your redundant grammar corrections.Those of us who went through conventional education will tell you that mollusc and mollusk is one and the same thing.So unless you have autism i'd suggest you go easy on these retarded posts.

I keep bringing up DNA coz anybody who's objective will tell you that it clearly attests of an intelligent designer and does so in a way that is in line with science.
Assuming you are familiar with coding,you should know that for there to be a code there MUST be somebody to write it up.You should also understand that code tends to be unique and that's why you hear people getting sued for stealing somebody else's code,so here we see that code is unique and that it doesn't just appear,somebody has to somehow write it up.

Now,unlike pattern(which easily results from randomness)code happens to carry information.Its the reason why the smart fellow wrote it in the first place(Bill gates and windows).

Now this is where it gets interesting.Your DNA so happens to be so fucking unique to you that it can easily get you to prison if you find yourself on the wrong side of the law.Now that's that.
Another thing about DNA is the fact that it carries information.Genetic information to be specific.Something that a snowflake doesn't(a product of randomness).

So basically DNA is a code and a snowflake is a pattern and as we've seen(according to the science) patterns happen but codes are created.Now put all your ignorance aside and pretend that you still have some brain function left.Doesn't it make more sense to believe that an intelligent designer ought to have written this code that we call DNA than to go against the science and say because we are afraid of the unknown and how this intelligent designer came into being we are going to ignore the science and say for this one,the code just happened(mind you not once but 1 billion+ times)..

Am guessing that duke was the last place you thought of applying when you were deciding on college(assuming you've even been as far).

Its people like you who attend some liberal arts college and somehow think that they know it all coz they are a philosophy major.
I've seen alot assholes like you and to tell you the truth you really disgust me.
You can't keep to your own pagan ways that you just have to insult and make fun of those who are trying to live by what they believe in.

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Originally Posted by sez

I keep bringing up DNA coz anybody who's objective will tell you that it clearly attests of an intelligent designer and does so in a way that is in line with science.

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Oh, we believers aren't noted for our objectivity.


Anyway, I think you've tumbled to the way I prefer to view the issues of Intelligent design (which any sincerely objective person ought also to tell you is not the same thing as Creationism) and science proper; that is to say purely nothing in either of them positively precludes any aspect of the other, especially given the relative natures of objectivism, faith, or science.

You can drive trucks through certain aspects of religious argument, I suppose.

The case for Intelligent design makes very nice use of logic, without being overly, uh...creative, and is almost unassailable from any point of reason.

Science....well...science is supposed to be science, and hence unassailable.

In this case, however, I think perhaps too much of the science of our origins has been left to Mr. Darwin, whose theory(s) are a target-rich environment for reasonable people driving trucks while they debate.

To those of us who've gotten beyond the stage of argument, it seems the two could peacefully co-exist if the sides were not so compelled purely by ideology.

That's what I think.

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Originally Posted by sez

I keep bringing up DNA coz anybody who's objective will tell you that it clearly attests of an intelligent designer and does so in a way that is in line with science.

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So, anyone who disagrees with this leap of faith is by definition, "not objective" and therefore, wrong.
Why don't you take off the kid gloves and simply say that anyone who fails to grasp your belief is an idiot since in your own quasi-intellectual way, that's exactly what you imply.

It also seems to me that your comparison of the snowflake to DNA is oddly fallacious.
What exactly is the difference between a snowflake and a strand of DNA that leads you to qualify the former as a random event and the latter as divinely written code?
Doesn't the snowflake- each completely unique as far as we know- contain all the information of its origins and the physical forces that shaped its form, just like DNA?
In other words, isn't it as full of information as DNA?
Why is the information encoded into a snowflake of less import than the other example?
For that matter, why is such a trivial object- the lone snowflake- completely unique?

I don't see how you can present yourself as "objective" when every experiment you'd perform and every conclusion you'd reach is colored by the expectation that the hand of your god is behind all observable fact and science is merely a tool you use to expose the ineffable.
You ride the science horse to the point where an explanation isn't obvious and then dismount to begin worshiping the being you've already decided must exist.

This entire thread could be boiled down to two posts.
The first would posit the question "How do you prove the existence of god"?
Your response- your onlyresponse- would be, "You can't, but I believe anyway".
End of discussion and the rest is nonsense.

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Originally Posted by sez

To the quasi-intellect,this is not spelling bee i advise you to go back to school instead of blowing the horn on how uncultivated you are with your redundant grammar corrections.Those of us who went through conventional education will tell you that mollusc and mollusk is one and the same thing.So unless you have autism i'd suggest you go easy on these retarded posts.

I keep bringing up DNA coz anybody who's objective will tell you that it clearly attests of an intelligent designer and does so in a way that is in line with science.
Assuming you are familiar with coding,you should know that for there to be a code there MUST be somebody to write it up.You should also understand that code tends to be unique and that's why you hear people getting sued for stealing somebody else's code,so here we see that code is unique and that it doesn't just appear,somebody has to somehow write it up.

Now,unlike pattern(which easily results from randomness)code happens to carry information.Its the reason why the smart fellow wrote it in the first place(Bill gates and windows).

Now this is where it gets interesting.Your DNA so happens to be so fucking unique to you that it can easily get you to prison if you find yourself on the wrong side of the law.Now that's that.
Another thing about DNA is the fact that it carries information.Genetic information to be specific.Something that a snowflake doesn't(a product of randomness).

So basically DNA is a code and a snowflake is a pattern and as we've seen(according to the science) patterns happen but codes are created.Now put all your ignorance aside and pretend that you still have some brain function left.Doesn't it make more sense to believe that an intelligent designer ought to have written this code that we call DNA than to go against the science and say because we are afraid of the unknown and how this intelligent designer came into being we are going to ignore the science and say for this one,the code just happened(mind you not once but 1 billion+ times)..

Am guessing that duke was the last place you thought of applying when you were deciding on college(assuming you've even been as far).

Its people like you who attend some liberal arts college and somehow think that they know it all coz they are a philosophy major.
I've seen alot assholes like you and to tell you the truth you really disgust me.
You can't keep to your own pagan ways that you just have to insult and make fun of those who are trying to live by what they believe in.

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You should be a politician. You evade questions by answering with a question. Don't think because you are in the majority that you are correct. The Nazis were in the majority. The gas chambers in Germany were operated so called Christians trying to eradicate the people who 'invented' their God.

Religion would be fantastic if the followers stick to the moral guidelines of their particular religion.

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What exactly is the difference between a snowflake and a strand of DNA that leads you to qualify the former as a random event and the latter as divinely written code?
Doesn't the snowflake- each completely unique as far as we know- contain all the information of its origins and the physical forces that shaped its form, just like DNA?

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A snowflake doesn't have any coded information,it symbolically represents nothing(no plan, no idea and no instructions) other than itself, and because there is no encoding/decoding mechanism and no system of symbols like in DNA it doesn't qualify as code.Its that simple.

You sound like you are attacking me but i don't think am suprised,you lay the burden of proof on us,you think we are idiots coz of our faith and when we try to assert the possibility of the existence of this intelligent designer through acceptable science,your ignorance takes the best of you and you resort to shit talk.That to me implies that indeed you know its possible that this ID exists only that you are not contented with such an arrangement.

If your faith tells you to believe in darwin then fine,that I have no problem with coz you obviously have your own reasons as to why you think he has all the answers.Just that as you practice your darwinism avoid slandering other faiths thinking that you know better.

Even with his smarts,Einstein chose to refrain from these silly attacks and simply had it that "science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind"

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Originally Posted by sez

A snowflake doesn't have any coded information,it symbolically represents nothing(no plan, no idea and no instructions) other than itself, and because there is no encoding/decoding mechanism and no system of symbols like in DNA it doesn't qualify as code.Its that simple.

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For someone who accepts the existence of a higher power, a power which by definition, is unknowable, you certainly are sure about what the ID considers to be important and what is not. This sense of smugness and entitlement is one of the things I dislike most in advocates such as yourself.

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Originally Posted by sez

You sound like you are attacking me but i don't think am suprised,you lay the burden of proof on us,you think we are idiots coz of our faith and when we try to assert the possibility of the existence of this intelligent designer through acceptable science,your ignorance takes the best of you and you resort to shit talk.That to me implies that indeed you know its possible that this ID exists only that you are not contented with such an arrangement.

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I hardly think of my post as an "attack", more of a prod and I don't recall asking for proof of anything. In fact, I recall offering you the out of claiming that a true believer didn't require proof of anything, the belief itself being all that was necessary or possible.
Of course, being an ignorant, shit-talking malcontent, I could have gotten that mixed up.

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Originally Posted by sez

If your faith tells you to believe in darwin then fine,that I have no problem with coz you obviously have your own reasons as to why you think he has all the answers.Just that as you practice your darwinism avoid slandering other faiths thinking that you know better.

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OK, now you're just getting silly.
Science doesn't require, nor does it rely, on faith and "darwinism" (whatever the hell that is) is not a religion.
Darwin himself never claimed to have "all the answers", that remains the province of the more enlightened, such as yourself.
After all, you know that snowflakes are random, unimportant things.

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Originally Posted by sez

Even with his smarts,Einstein chose to refrain from these silly attacks and simply had it that "science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind"

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Good for Albert.
You know, he also said, "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former".

I have an idea...let's frame this whole debate in Albert Einstein quotes...

Sez. Do you think you could do the honour of quoting(Including the poster) or naming the member you are referring to. I am confused, maybe an old age thingy. I honestly don't know who you are accusing of attacking you. If you don't do this the previous poster will assume you are referring to them and answer accordingly. Which in some cases confuses me even more.

bigboab,
I believe he's talking to me. I'm the asshole that disgusts him, not you. :)

clocker,
I'm glad to have someone on my side in this thread, but how can you just let them choose what they want? Doesn't the ignorance just make your toes curl? I mean, I believe in people making their own choices, but when someone actually seems educated and their still believing what they were taught in Sunday school? :ermm:

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Originally Posted by sez

To the quasi-intellect,this is not spelling bee i advise you to go back to school instead of blowing the horn on how uncultivated you are with your redundant grammar corrections.Those of us who went through conventional education will tell you that mollusc and mollusk is one and the same thing.So unless you have autism i'd suggest you go easy on these retarded posts.
....
Its people like you who attend some liberal arts college and somehow think that they know it all coz they are a philosophy major.
I've seen alot assholes like you and to tell you the truth you really disgust me.
You can't keep to your own pagan ways that you just have to insult and make fun of those who are trying to live by what they believe in.

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Sez,
This has apparently just turned into some grade school verbal fight. Really mature. As for the "redundant grammar corrections", let's just say I've autism so I may continue...

The majority of kids under the age of 13 think that Santa Claus is real. He must be then, eh? He leaves a footprint in the fireplace and eats the cookies we leave for him... Or wait? Did someone else put the footprint there, and someone else eat the cookie? See the correlation between this and religion? People want you to believe something, so they plant all of this fake evidence, and get you when you're young so you'll believe it.

Think of this:
If someone was raised until age 20 without any hint at God at all. No religious references or anything. Then, when they turned 20, they were told that there might be a creator, and that he made all of us. Now, Larry (this guy's arbitrarily chosen name) is a left-brained person, being dominantly logical. When he hears about God, he's not going to think it makes sense at all. It's just not logical. He wasn't raised with that faith, and he wasn't trained to be obedient to the all and powerful God. *scoff*

Take this into consideration now, if you will:

A child is raised in a city with his parents and siblings. They are drug addicts and alcoholics, and don't believe in God. Yet they want their kids to, so they send them to Sunday school. Do you think that when the kids learn something, and then go home to their fighting parents that they will retain the absence of God, or his omni-present grace?

Since it's going to be the former (you agree so far, eh?), that makes him one of the assholes that you are disgusted by, right? He is now against God, since he has been told how God helps, then has gone home to drunk parents that beat him. He's now bruised, and an asshole. :huh:

Now, as for the snowflake and DNA.... DNA follows a pattern, a guideline. When someone is created, (by their mother, not God) we have a clue what the DNA will look like. How is that different from a snowflake? Does not a snowflake follow a guideline, and then the rest of it's description is taken from where it was created. (talking about inheritance) DNA is just as random as a snowflake, hence everyone is not the same, but they are close (where they guidelines come in).

To answer your question about it making sense for someone to write the code: No.

The code evolved from something very simple to what it is now. And it changed from animal to animal depending on the location and potential of intelligence.

Lastly, I'm not going for philosophy; I'm attending a university as a Computer Science major, with a minor in Psychology.

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Originally Posted by clocker

This entire thread could be boiled down to two posts.
The first would posit the question "How do you prove the existence of god"?

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I think you'll find that the first post in this thread says something else.

This thread is stupid and needs to die, though.

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Originally Posted by Snee

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Originally Posted by clocker

This entire thread could be boiled down to two posts.
The first would posit the question "How do you prove the existence of god"?

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I think you'll find that the first post in this thread says something else.

This thread is stupid and needs to die, though.

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Originally Posted by 1st post

prove or at least make a case that GOD can exists

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:blink:

Make a case that God can exist != How do you prove the existence of God.

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Originally Posted by Recursacro

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Originally Posted by sez

How about who was the first person to be in contact with your mollusc(mollusk, Ive founde u cant right verrie good) ;) ancestors and were there any witnesses when you changed from nothing to some chemical soup to fish and finally to the super complex being that you are today.Do you really believe that you are relatives with fish or the fish of today for that matter are the human beings of tomorrow?
Do you know how mathematically harmonious your DNA double helix is to just have been as a result of randomness?
Either you are blaming God for something that happened to you or you are just ignorant(regardless of the level of your education).Be an atheist fine! just don't be attacking other people's beliefs like that.
Numbers don't lie and you clearly are in the minority,the majority of the world believes in the existence of a higher power and am glad am on the winning side.
Just out of curiosity,whats your take on homosexuality?

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To answer someone's question from the previous page as to how a Christian talks: Like a narrow-minded and ignorant moron. See the post above me, and all other posts from Sez.

Sez,
You did the same damn thing with my question. Why don't you just try to answer the questions we ask you? I asked who created God. You asked who created soil and dirt. That's not the point!

Here,
BigBoab asks a question, and you steer away from providing an answer. Do you not like to think that your mind-control group has flawed their story? Is there something in there that doesn't make sense? Oh, just revert to Faith, everything'll be just fine if we just let someone else run our lives. Hell, why not be Communist. We don't need to pick our jobs either.

Another point:
You bring up DNA quite often. Yup, ok, God's a great mathematician, and he worked out all of it. Praise the Lord! That's crap. We evolved. We are complex beings and some things have yet to be explained, but no one being created us and all of our world. Which, by the way, why would God create other solar systems if he only care about us? He just got bored? The DNA isn't a result of haphazard evolution, it's a result of our bodies making a code from a very primitive one, to a complex one that can support ourselves over time.

Moving on...
Do I believe the fish of today are the people of tomorrow? No...
We are the people of tomorrow, I'm sure. Well, as long as there is land to walk on. Fish wouldn't need to evolve because they still have food in the water. Why would they change to come on land if it's over populated with people like you?

Now, as for your second to last statement. Wow. Does that not seem like a group of people trying to take control of others? The winning side? Is this a war? Is it a game? ;) So God favors your side to anyone else's, right? I was watching a movie the other day, and some vampire was going to die. He asked if God would let him in. (Godric, his name was, I think) She said God was forgiving, and would let anyone in.... What's the point in Hell then?

Oh, and Sez, the majority of people may be religious, but the majority of religious people don't know the square root of 144. Do you?

My views on homosexuality:
Anyone has the right to have the sexuality they prefer. As long as it abides by the laws of the state (not having sex with kids and such). I also support same-sex marriage 100%.

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This is hilarious! You sound like a narrow-minded and ignorant moron with your very first response....bravo! Give me more,please.

Am starting to think that the problem is with our education systems.I just wish people read beyond what they were offered by their curriculars.Darwin's theory of evolution is being hammered by ID that most have now reduced it to a theory explaining basic natural selection.

Check this out then share your thoughts Unlocking The Mystery Of Life: Introduction on Intelligent Design Theory |

And from the comments its interesting to note how jittery these uneducated darwin loons can get.Near the end you actually hear that while this theory may have religious implications,it does not necessarily have religion as a premise.

I think this debate would have been more succinct if various religions had not destroyed all the books/transcripts that disagreed with their dogma.
What possible reason could they have for doing that?

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Originally Posted by bigboab

I think this debate would have been more succinct if various religions had not destroyed all the books/transcripts that disagreed with their dogma.
What possible reason could they have for doing that?

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See what you did there?

if god is not perfect , god is not god

so what is my problem ? again or yours ?

Well, then.

It is impossible to think of an absolutely perfect Being as lacking anything. If an absolutely perfect Being did not exist, then it would lack existence. Therefore, as it is clear that an absolutely perfect Being cannot lack existence, the Being must exist.:wacko:

Putting Descartes before the horse.:whistling

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