Us To Fingerprint & Photograph All Visa Travellers

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Originally posted by Busyman@9 January 2004 - 01:37
We ARE not used to terrorism. Once again step outside of your third world mind.

If you read carefully. I said THE WORST TERRORIST ACT COMMITTED HERE.

The average American is NOT used to terrorism.
Knowing of terrorism abroad does not make you used to it.
America has been buffered by a huge separation of water. The UK in contrast does not have the same separation (as well as most of the other countries).

9-11 was probably less unigue to YOU because it happened abroad (and you're used to it). Get it?

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I think you mean you've finally had your eyes opened to what has been happening in the world, and much of it in your name although you didn't want to here about it, but now you wish to distance youself from the truth.

To be blunt, STOP BLAMING THE REST OF THE WORLD FOR YOUR OWN COUNTRY'S SHORTCOMINGS. You made most of the mess, don't expect someone else to clean up your shit. Either that, or close up your borders, AND STAY BEHIND THEM.

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Originally posted by lynx+9 January 2004 - 04:09--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (lynx &#064; 9 January 2004 - 04:09)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-Busyman@9 January 2004 - 01:37
We ARE not used to terrorism. Once again step outside of your third world mind.

If you read carefully. I said THE WORST TERRORIST ACT COMMITTED HERE.

The average American is NOT used to terrorism.
Knowing of terrorism abroad does not make you used to it.
America has been buffered by a huge separation of water. The UK in contrast does not have the same separation (as well as most of the other countries).

9-11 was probably less unigue to YOU because it happened abroad (and you&#39;re used to it). Get it?

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I think you mean you&#39;ve finally had your eyes opened to what has been happening in the world, and much of it in your name although you didn&#39;t want to here about it, but now you wish to distance youself from the truth.

To be blunt, STOP BLAMING THE REST OF THE WORLD FOR YOUR OWN COUNTRY&#39;S SHORTCOMINGS. You made most of the mess, don&#39;t expect someone else to clean up your shit. Either that, or close up your borders, AND STAY BEHIND THEM.[/b][/quote]

I agree with paragraph #1.

How was he blaming anyone for our countries shortcomings. And what shortcoming are you talking about? Security, I am guessing.

He is talking about our response to 9/11. He never stated that the US has not done anything to create enemies. He has focused on the point: 9/11 happened, what can we do to prevent it from occuring again?

How was that blaming the world, I didn&#39;t see him blame anyone. Where was his plea for outside intervention. We have a security problem, fingerprints are a part of our attempt to assist in securing it, ourselves.

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Originally posted by hobbes+9 January 2004 - 04:24--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (hobbes @ 9 January 2004 - 04:24)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

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Originally posted by lynx@9 January 2004 - 04:09
<!--QuoteBegin-Busyman

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@9 January 2004 - 01:37
We ARE not used to terrorism. Once again step outside of your third world mind.

If you read carefully. I said THE WORST TERRORIST ACT COMMITTED HERE.

The average American is NOT used to terrorism.
Knowing of terrorism abroad does not make you used to it.
America has been buffered by a huge separation of water. The UK in contrast does not have the same separation (as well as most of the other countries).

9-11 was probably less unigue to YOU because it happened abroad (and you&#39;re used to it). Get it?

---

I think you mean you&#39;ve finally had your eyes opened to what has been happening in the world, and much of it in your name although you didn&#39;t want to here about it, but now you wish to distance youself from the truth.

To be blunt, STOP BLAMING THE REST OF THE WORLD FOR YOUR OWN COUNTRY&#39;S SHORTCOMINGS. You made most of the mess, don&#39;t expect someone else to clean up your shit. Either that, or close up your borders, AND STAY BEHIND THEM.

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I agree with paragraph #1.

How was he blaming anyone for our countries shortcomings. And what shortcoming are you talking about? Security, I am guessing.

He is talking about our response to 9/11. He never stated that the US has not done anything to create enemies. He has focused on the point: 9/11 happened, what can we do to prevent it from occuring again?

How was that blaming the world, I didn&#39;t see him blame anyone. Where was his plea for outside intervention. We have a security problem, fingerprints are a part of our attempt to assist in securing it, ourselves. [/b][/quote]
Excellent point hobbes.

I know America has done lowdown crap.
Never said they didn&#39;t.

And hobbes I totally disagree with the first paragraph.

Again WE .....ARE .......NOT........USED.......TO........TERRORISM.
Again PLEASE READ.

1. Think. How many of these horrid acts have happened here? I am not talking small isolated incidents.
2. Some do come to mind.
Timothy Mcvey reduced half a federal building to rubble.
The 1st WTC attack
The 2nd and worst WTC attack and Pentagon
I think his name was Kamala; he gunned down some CIA agents
the thwarted gasing of the NY tunnel (related to the 1st WTC attack)
and the most recent Sniper in my native Washington DC area (somewhat unrelated)

3. Remember we are buffered from Europe, Asia, and Africa.

4. Most terrorism for Americans was heard about as overseas news (which it was) so how would we be used to it.

You seem to want rant almost like 1234 (lynx is that really you..hmmmmm)

I meant what I said but I guess you are talking to someone else about this very subject while posting a response to mine.

I am seeing the anti-Americanism on this board that many others have described.

btw, I would love for America to close it&#39;s borders or least tighten them. Our borders are way too porous in this day and time.

One shortcoming of ours is that we are TOO free and accepting.

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Originally posted by busyman
I did apologize lefty. I shouldn&#39;t have obliged.
Interesting that you assumed he was talking about me. (maybe you agree with 1234 hmmmm..)

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Yes I do agree with him.

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Fortunately he was not talking about me.&nbsp;

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Sorry about that, I saw one guy calmly explaining his position and another guy spitting out a barrage of insults. I guess we must have different definitions of the word &#39;troll&#39;.

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Originally posted by leftism@9 January 2004 - 12:19
Yes I do agree with him.

Sorry about that, I saw one guy calmly explaining his position and another guy spitting out a barrage of insults. I guess we must have different definitions of the word &#39;troll&#39;.

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1. I figured as much.

2. Actually there was just an insult here and there.
I only did that after his "asswipe" comment. This topic didn&#39;t have such a thing inserted before that. A troller is not a person spouting insults.

It&#39;s a person especially going off-topic to get a rise out of others.

Calmly or not.

I can calmy say: I agree with Hitler&#39;s policies. All of them.
You can tell me to STFU, idiot.

It doesn&#39;t neccesarily make you a troller. ;)

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Originally posted by busyman+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (busyman)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I can calmy say: I agree with Hitler&#39;s policies. All of them.
You can tell me to STFU, idiot.

It doesn&#39;t neccesarily make you a troller.&nbsp; [/b]

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I will agree he was slightly OT but trolling? I dont think so. Lets take a look.

<!--QuoteBegin-busyman

As just shown, the suffering of millions worldwide is directly due to US govt policies both before and after 9/11. You reap what you sow. Or rather, those poor sods in the WTC reaped it while the people responsible sat in bunkers in the middle of Nevada or wherever[/quote]

That seems like a pretty reasonable opinion to me.

:)

Guys, is it just me or has this drifted into one of those long running spats where the topic is merely secondary?

I have moved my mis-placed piece but I thought I would leave the above because it does still seem relevant.

:frusty: :frusty:

Wrong spat

Is there a friendly mod out there who could move the above post to the right thread?

Sorry guys

Oh I think we all know I was referring to Leftism, another incarnation of one of the most pathetic trollers the board has had the misfortune to be subjected to.

Whether terrorism occurs elsewhere is not the point here.

Whether the US Government is entitled to protect it&#39;s citizens and guests from terrorism is. I fully support their rights to take any steps they feel appropriate. They would be totally wrong not to. I think I said it earlier, damned if you do, damned if you don&#39;t.

What other Governments chose to do (or not do) is up to them. I will certainly support my own Government when it tries to protect me from cowardly indiscriminate murderers. If the cost is a photograph and some fingerprints, so be it.

The bank account thing is a red herring. Think of the personal details you give when getting a mortgage, car loan or whatever. You have no choice, don&#39;t do it you don&#39;t get the money, your loss.

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Originally posted by J&#39;Pol+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (J&#39;Pol)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Oh I think we all know I was referring to Leftism, another incarnation of one of the most pathetic trollers the board has had the misfortune to be subjected to.
[/b]

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Strange, I argued that fingerprinting wont prevent any terrorist attack and that means I&#39;m a "pathetic troller".

We certainly do have different definitions of the word troll. :rolleyes:

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Originally posted by J&#39;Pol@
I fully support their rights to take any steps they feel appropriate. They would be totally wrong not to.

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I agree with that and have never suggested anything else.

Next time you feel like venting your aggression over the internet, make sure the target of your attention doesnt agree with you. Then you wont look so foolish :)

Of course you could be referring to me agreeing with this...

<!--QuoteBegin-1234
As just shown, the suffering of millions worldwide is directly due to US govt policies both before and after 9/11. You reap what you sow. Or rather, those poor sods in the WTC reaped it while the people responsible sat in bunkers in the middle of Nevada or wherever[/quote]

But that would just mean your calling me a troller for having a pretty reasonable opinion, which is also foolish.

Next time you accuse me of being a troll, be more specific. Then I wont have to second guess what your referring to and you&#39;ll be forced to back up your statements. :)

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Originally posted by Busyman@9 January 2004 - 03:31
Again WE .....ARE .......NOT........USED.......TO........TERRORISM.
Again PLEASE READ.

1. Think. How many of these horrid acts have happened here? I am not talking small isolated incidents.
2. Some do come to mind.
Timothy Mcvey reduced half a federal building to rubble.
The 1st WTC attack
The 2nd and worst WTC attack and Pentagon
I think his name was Kamala; he gunned down some CIA agents
the thwarted gasing of the NY tunnel (related to the 1st WTC attack)
and the most recent Sniper in my native Washington DC area (somewhat unrelated)

3. Remember we are buffered from Europe, Asia, and Africa.

4. Most terrorism for Americans was heard about as overseas news (which it was) so how would we be used to it.

You seem to want rant almost like 1234 (lynx is that really you..hmmmmm)

I meant what I said but I guess you are talking to someone else about this very subject while posting a response to mine.

I am seeing the anti-Americanism on this board that many others have described.

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Your first paragraph is the one which is objectionable.

WE ARE NOT USED TO TERRORISM ?????

I think you mean you are not used to it happening on your soil. Your government is certainly well versed in terrorist activities, but most of you have for years turned a blind eye to what our government does, although I suspect this is pure idleness.

1. Why should we care that few of these atrocities have occured on US soil in the past? The fact that many of them have been indirectly sponsored by your government has &#39;de facto&#39; ensured that situation.

2. As I understand it, Timothy Mcvey was protesting about the actions of your government. Although I don&#39;t agree with his methods, and probably not what he was complaining about, at least someone has the balls to say something.

The Washington sniper - heck, you&#39;ve had so many of this sort of incident over the years, how can you pin this one on terrorism and ignore all the rest. Oh, of course, one of them was a Muslim. Good job you didn&#39;t throw any racist comments in too.

The rest was 9/11 related, how many times do you want it counted?

3. Buffered from Europe, Asie and Africa? More like can&#39;t be bothered to find out what really happens in the rest of the world. Again, it is your own idleness which causes your ignorance.

4. It is only overseas news because you haven&#39;t understood how your own government was involved. It must be great to be shielded from reality by your news programmes.

I&#39;ve no idea who 1234 is, but I&#39;m sure if you want to PM a mod they&#39;ll tell you it isn&#39;t me.

Why would I need to talk to someone else about this subject? I&#39;m perfectly able to think for myself. How about you?

Oh-oh, are we being anti-American? Well if so, tough shit, I&#39;m not going to apologise for it. If you don&#39;t like it, put your house in order before complaining that people don&#39;t like you.

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Originally posted by J&#39;Pol
:lol:&nbsp; :lol:&nbsp; :lol:&nbsp; :lol:&nbsp; :lol:

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If I weren&#39;t such a trusting and naive soul, I might take that response to mean you dont have an adequate reply :)

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Originally posted by leftism+10 January 2004 - 04:24--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (leftism &#064; 10 January 2004 - 04:24)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-J&#39;Pol
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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If I weren&#39;t such a trusting and naive soul, I might take that response to mean you dont have an adequate reply :)[/b][/quote]
:)

Looks to me like the terrorists are achieving their objectives, mahem and discord.
they created mayhem on 9&#092;11 and they only need to read this forum to see the discord <_<
the only good thing so far, if you can call it a good thing, and that is they&#39;re bombing their own people/muslims. i think their heads are so far up their arses the don&#39;t know what they&#39;re doing <_<

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Originally posted by billyfridge@10 January 2004 - 03:44
Looks to me like the terrorists are achieving their objectives, mahem and discord.
they created mayhem on 9&#092;11 and they only need to read this forum to see the discord <_<
the only good thing so far, if you can call it a good thing, and that is they&#39;re bombing their own people/muslims. i think their heads are so far up their arses the don&#39;t know what they&#39;re doing <_<

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this isn&#39;t having a pop just would like to say on the line about bombing their own people/muslims...erm muslims are not terrorist just happens that some are,as are catholics,protestants, any other religion and any other non religious person that commits acts of terrorism.
this is not a holy war despite what some might like to say.

i appreciate you are just giving the example about 9/11 but you must have seen how some people blow a slight thing like that out of proportion :D

Jeez Lynx, where to start?

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I think you mean you are not used to it happening on your soil. Your government is certainly well versed in terrorist activities, but most of you have for years turned a blind eye to what our government does, although I suspect this is pure idleness.

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Are you suggesting that we should "get used" to terrorism on American soil?
Thanks a lot, but no.
Your sweeping assertion re: what " most of us" do and our level of concern is sheer speculation and not worthy of response.

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1. Why should we care that few of these atrocities have occured on US soil in the past? The fact that many of them have been indirectly sponsored by your government has &#39;de facto&#39; ensured that situation.

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Go ahead, don&#39;t care.
Too bad that what affects the US, and our subsequent response, ultimately will affect the rest of the world also.
You might care then.

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2. As I understand it, Timothy Mcvey was protesting about the actions of your government. Although I don&#39;t agree with his methods, and probably not what he was complaining about, at least someone has the balls to say something.

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"At least he had the balls to say something"?
Given his great good fortune to be born American, Mr. McVey had the freedom to say anything he wanted.
Too bad he was too stupid to realize that his voice was stronger than diesel fuel and fertilizer, but I guess he reached you, didn&#39;t he?

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3. Buffered from Europe, Asie and Africa? More like can&#39;t be bothered to find out what really happens in the rest of the world. Again, it is your own idleness which causes your ignorance.

4. It is only overseas news because you haven&#39;t understood how your own government was involved. It must be great to be shielded from reality by your news programmes.

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Again the assumption that Americans are lumpen, ignorant fools, too distracted by the joys of Starbucks to appreciate the harsh realities and subtle political machinations of the world in which you live.
This is based on long term and wide ranging experience on your part?
Or is it just easier to imagine that the country that so affects your life is full of dolts inferior to yourself?
I suspect the latter.

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Again the assumption that Americans are lumpen, ignorant fools, too distracted by the joys of Starbucks to appreciate the harsh realities and subtle political machinations of the world in which you live.

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Many Americans are, which is why the world views America the way it does.

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Originally posted by Monkster@9 January 2004 - 22:04

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Again the assumption that Americans are lumpen, ignorant fools, too distracted by the joys of Starbucks to appreciate the harsh realities and subtle political machinations of the world in which you live.

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Many Americans are, which is why the world views America the way it does.

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I see.
And the rest of the world is populated entirely by politically savvy, well read activists?
Bullshit.

I never said that. What I said was that many Americans don&#39;t think about anyone but themselves, and they think that America can do whatever it want toward other nations.

The world perceives Amercans as ignorant fools because of there attitude toward other nations.

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Originally posted by Monkster@9 January 2004 - 22:24
I never said that. What I said was that many Americans don&#39;t think about anyone but themselves, and they think that America can do whatever it want toward other nations.

The world perceives Amercans as ignorant fools because of there attitude toward other nations.

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And many Brits, French, Saudis, Israelis, Germans, etc., etc., think in exactly the same way.
We are the world, didn&#39;t you know that?

When an uncontested super power appears upon the Earth you will know it by this sign, the impotent will join in a confederacy against it.

Really, it is simple human psychology. All men/nations want autonomy over their lives, their destiny. When this is removed, it causes unrest, anger, and resentment.

Like all the low level workers who gather in the break room talking about how stupid their boss is, slapping each other on the back and laughing. They discredit any achievements of the boss as a ruse to mask their impotence. They demean the boss and his integrity. They wouldn&#39;t be caught dead being such an ass kissing low life as their boss who was obviously pandered to all his live.

The Boss acts without caring about others. Yeah, like any country, ever, has passed up something to strengthen itself because it wouldn&#39;t be "nice". Humans are humans.

So all I see is anger and specious moral high ground acting as a facade to mask fear and impotence.

Ok let me put this in one sentance for you since you are not really listening to the points in my longer posts.

If the US stopped supporting terrorists and dictators, the US would be a lot safer than if it just introduces fingerprinting and photos of visitors.

Not one of you attacking me can answer my points. You are blind to what really caused the attacks on the WTC, and as long as you continue to be - it will happen again and again.

On the economic front, the US will lose up to 17million jobs if tourism is badly affected as well as over 5 billion dollars. High price to pay to continue to support terrorists.

Btw, "long overdue" does not mean I welcome the attacks. It means it is surprising that the US was not attacked much earlier.

PS. I am not Lynx or anyone else but myself. I just don&#39;t post here much.

But every country does this to whatever degree it is capable. There are no "nice" governments.

Since governments acting in the self interest in their country will never change, we must deal with the variables that are amenable to change.

It would be nice if we could elect people who can make better decisions about what will be beneficial long term, but unfortunately, we can&#39;t seem to find any honest candidates. Politicians are the bigggest chameleons out there, the best liars seem to come out on top.

edit: so big, I used 3 "g"s

I&#39;ll make one last point, then I&#39;ll probably be out of this discussion.

If the failure to acknowledge how damaging US foreign policies are to itself and the rest of the world can cause such vitriol on this board, try to imagine how much hatred the policies themselves cause around the world. And then ask yourselves what sort of response you would expect.

No-one in this thread has wished the terrorist attacks on you, but now that some of the worst terrorist groups are no longer financed by you they obviously see no reason why you shouldn&#39;t also be a target.

Say what you will, you won&#39;t see an improvement until you remove the cause.

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Originally posted by lynx@10 January 2004 - 07:33


If the failure to acknowledge how damaging US foreign policies are to itself and the rest of the world can cause such vitriol on this board, try to imagine how much hatred the policies themselves cause around the world. And then ask yourselves what sort of response you would expect.

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Lynx,
Sorry to disturb your slumber...
Can you ( or anyone else for that matter) offer up a country who&#39;s foreign policy you would consider to be a model for the US to emulate?

The general sense that I get is that you guys feel that the rest of the world has it all figured out and only the US stands in the way of a utopian future.
So who should we become?

Clocker

I recall a Woddy Allen film in which they overthrow the regime of the day. I think the end result was that everyone had to speak Swedish and change their underpants three times a day. (underpants to be worn on the outside of clothing in order to facilitate checking).

Sweden it is then&#33;

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Originally posted by vidcc+10 January 2004 - 04:31--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (vidcc @ 10 January 2004 - 04:31)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-billyfridge@10 January 2004 - 03:44
Looks to me like the terrorists are achieving their objectives, mahem and discord.
they created mayhem on 9&#092;11 and they only need to read this forum to see the discord <_<
the only good thing so far, if you can call it a good thing, and that is they&#39;re bombing their own people/muslims. i think their heads are so far up their arses the don&#39;t know what they&#39;re doing <_<

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this isn&#39;t having a pop just would like to say on the line about bombing their own people/muslims...erm muslims are not terrorist just happens that some are,as are catholics,protestants, any other religion and any other non religious person that commits acts of terrorism.
this is not a holy war despite what some might like to say.

i appreciate you are just giving the example about 9/11 but you must have seen how some people blow a slight thing like that out of proportion :D [/b][/quote]
Sorry VIDcc, perhaps i was a bit strong on the muslims, is just that it seems all terrorists actually caught are muslims. the UK prisoners held by the US are muslims caught in Afganistan. what were they doing there, on holiday&#33;&#33; what religeon is bin laden? I wonder what religeon the terrorists who are killing US and UK soldiers in Iraq are <_<

Billy

I think you might have hit on a truism there.

All Islamic terrorists are Muslims. All Loyalist terrorists in NI are Protestants. All Republican terrorists in NI are Catholic.

Likewise all the indigenous terrorists in Papa New Guinea are native peoples - this equally applies to a number of S. American countries.

At this particular time there is an ideological struggle going on in the ME which because of the regions economic importance has spilled out into the west. There are a lot of conflicts going on in the world but it is human nature to see our conflict as symbolising the whole problem. The fact is, large numbers of people die in these other conflicts too but it goes largely unreported.

There are 1 billion Muslims in the world - very few get involved in terrorism. However, if we play our cards right I suppose we could convince them to do otherwise.

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Originally posted by billyfridge@11 January 2004 - 02:18

Sorry VIDcc, perhaps i was a bit strong on the muslims, is just that it seems all terrorists actually caught are muslims. the UK prisoners held by the US are muslims caught in Afganistan. what were they doing there, on holiday&#33;&#33; what religeon is bin laden? I wonder what religeon the terrorists who are killing US and UK soldiers in Iraq are <_<

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" in Iraq " yes what are we doing over there......and all the countrys we have seen fit to set foot on their soil and kill them

i am Australian we do whatever the US wants it sucks&#33;

And I&#39;m sure if two towers of your own went down with HUGE loss of life your country would not be the least bit interested in hunting down terrorists?

My apologies, it seems the Middle East&#39;s breeding grounds for terrorism are required sanctuary because Australia don&#39;t believe in the cause...

Im sorry if i miss read your post, but the cause of all this is Australia USA UK and others i walk with my eyes open i see what we do to other countrys and peoples...kick a dog enough and it will bite you

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Originally posted by exeus@10 January 2004 - 14:53
kick a dog enough and it will bite you

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So your answer is to roll over and ACCEPT TERRORISM as a part of our life???

Tell me exeus, what would you say is the best course of action?



If all the Middle Eastern nations (Yes, I&#39;m identifying these countries, because this is where the majority of terrorists originate from) can see that the US, UK, Australia & other nations will not stand for terrorism, do you think they&#39;ll be happy about it. As a quote from &#39;Pearl Harbor&#39;, "They&#39;ve woken a sleeping giant".

No for sure we have to put end to terrorism, all i am saying is we caused this ourselves.
So yes i think we need to stop terrorism but we also need to look at what we do to others countrys to make them want to resort to terrorism. We have been messing about in the Middle East for how long...i mean we could go back to the crucades (yer i know i cant spell) just because here in the Western World we dont see in the Media what we do in other countrys be it open as now or in secret dosnt mean it dosnt happen.

The Middle East has been at war with itself since time began... and with that comes hatred towards the &#39;West&#39;. Because of the fact that they can&#39;t do anything but create wars between themselves, their countries have literally gone to shit.

They are jealous and angered by the fact that &#39;John Doe&#39; from the West has his own house, TV, Internet and lives his life in luxury.

Their belief is that anyone who does not believe in the religion of Islam, is evil and according to (their) God, must be punished.

Until these countries learn that life is the most precious thing on this Earth and that stoning is getting a little old, things will not change. They will carry on fighting with each other, carry on allowing terrorists to thrive in their communities and celebrate when an atrocity happens such as September 11th.

The Middle East in my view, could be a wonderful place, avast with palaces and monuments to aquire admiration from any nation.

This will never happen though, or at least in the far future, because they can&#39;t get off their behinds and do something worth while.

Why do you think the &#39;West&#39; has fighter jets, aeroplanes, motor cars, computers, televisions? The Middle East has purchased these items themselves because they&#39;re so fu*king stupid to attempt to do it themselves. Maybe in 20 years or so, they&#39;ll be able to have their very own market in carpet making. I hear the trades good over there.

"life is the most precious thing on this Earth"

i agree fully

Sorry samurai but thats a load of bollocks.

Mathematics and algorithims were first developed in the Middle East while Europe was still in the Dark Ages. In fact we wouldnt even have computers without the number system they created. Before they created a number system founded on base (decimal = base 10, binary = base 2) the western world was using the Roman number system. Try creating a computer based on that number system :)

The same goes for astronomy and various other scientific endeavours.

Also.. not all of the middle east is desert and wooden shacks y&#39;know.

As for the jealousy argument thats rubbish too. Life is not that simple.

I could also pull out numerous quotes from the koran to show you that Islam does not advocate the killing of all non-muslims. Its the same as any other religion, you get a few wackos who can twist it round to justify anything e.g. You have heard about the Inquisition, witch hunts etc?

It seems to me that your opinions are based on tired stereotypes and not historical fact. I suggest you actually meet some muslims from the Middle East and talk to them. It might open your eyes a little.

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Originally posted by billyfridge+10 January 2004 - 15:18--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (billyfridge &#064; 10 January 2004 - 15:18)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

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Originally posted by vidcc@10 January 2004 - 04:31
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@10 January 2004 - 03:44
Looks to me like the terrorists are achieving their objectives, mahem and discord.
they created mayhem on 9&#092;11 and they only need to read this forum to see the discord <_<
the only good thing so far, if you can call it a good thing, and that is they&#39;re bombing their own people/muslims. i think their heads are so far up their arses the don&#39;t know what they&#39;re doing <_<

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this isn&#39;t having a pop just would like to say on the line about bombing their own people/muslims...erm muslims are not terrorist just happens that some are,as are catholics,protestants, any other religion and any other non religious person that commits acts of terrorism.
this is not a holy war despite what some might like to say.

i appreciate you are just giving the example about 9/11 but you must have seen how some people blow a slight thing like that out of proportion :D

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Sorry VIDcc, perhaps i was a bit strong on the muslims, is just that it seems all terrorists actually caught are muslims. the UK prisoners held by the US are muslims caught in Afganistan. what were they doing there, on holiday&#33;&#33; what religeon is bin laden? I wonder what religeon the terrorists who are killing US and UK soldiers in Iraq are <_< [/b][/quote]
what about the IRA and the many other groups from northern Ireland? (just using as an example and if anyone wants to start a rant about the rights or wrongs start another topic please)...terrorists come from all walks of life.

now i know this will draw some flak but think about it...the fighters in Iraq at the moment are not terrorists they are people in their own occupied country. i think the attacks they are doing are evil and often indiscriminent, however If the USA or Uk were invaded and occupied any citizen that did the same would be considered a hero by our people as were the French resistance in ww2.
i support our troops fully, they have been put in a place of great danger and i want to see every one of the reamining troops come home safely......i think it is a travesty that anyone has to lose their lives.
but this is all off the post topic.

as i said i was not having a pop just trying to get the emphasis away from religious scaremongering

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Originally posted by Samurai@10 January 2004 - 16:22
The Middle East has been at war with itself since time began... and with that comes hatred towards the &#39;West&#39;. Because of the fact that they can&#39;t do anything but create wars between themselves, their countries have literally gone to shit.

They are jealous and angered by the fact that &#39;John Doe&#39; from the West has his own house, TV, Internet and lives his life in luxury.

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:D

Ok Mr Kilroy come on out, we know it is you.

I don&#39;t often say this, but I haven&#39;t read so much ill informed nonsense for a long time.

I take it by "since time began" you mean since 1919 after the break up of the Ottoman Empire. They presumably started the US civil war, WW1, WW2, the Korean war and a whole host of others - any one of which resulted in far more deaths and casualties than any ME war you care to mention.

Prior to the Romans, the ME was barely aware of the existence of the West let alone jealous of it. Indeed as the cradle of civilisation they considered far off lands barbarous and dodgy. The post Ptolemeic Persian Empire was the only power that the Romans decided was a bridge too far.

Up until the 20th century there was little difference in the living conditions, mortality and general well being of the masses in any country and the rich have always been rich whatever land you live in (even the Russian elite had their Dachaus in the country). The glory of the Ottoman palaces and the Persian/Mogul cities were bywords for beauty and luxury in medieval Europe. We aspired to their achievements not the other way round.

The overwhelming majority of the terrorists involved in the current difficulties are Saudis - a country were poverty is not exactly a problem and where there are more Rolls Royces per head of population than most other countries in the world put together. Osama was worth hundreds of million and he chose instead to go and fight the Russians in Afghanistan. He and his followers are not motivated by money or TVs or internet connections (these things are just tools to achieve their ends) and if the West can&#39;t understand that it will never defeat them.

Incidently, if you look at the bottom of most products in your house you will see that they are manufactured in China, Japan or Korea.

I wanted to address some things:

1. @lynx- When I say America is NOT used to terrorism I was talking the American people not the government (that was fairly obvious).

2. @exeus- America was not around during the Crusades. It was European Christians trying to recover Holy Land from Muslims. Also the force feeding of Christianity onto non-Christians.

3. @Samurai- The higher mathematics WERE developed in the Middle East.
Think "AL"GEBRA. ;)

4. @everyone- Terrorists that have been interviewed and they say the same thing. America is main target due to our support of ISRAEL. Israel has a long standing feud with Palestine. They know Israel gets weapons and financing from the US. One Saudi said, "We see made in the USA on the rockets that bomb Muslim villages", which makes little sense but I get the point.

5. Our foreign policy changed drastically due to events in WW2 (for obvious reasons).

6. @lefty- All Muslims are not terrorists but.......there is breeding ground of hate from birth and it is spreading like a virus. At this point Osama and others have twisted the interpretation of "jihad" to mean kill anyone from America, in America, or that sympathizes with America. They are training children to strap bombs on themselves to later commit suicide bombings (pregnant women also). Osama can now say kill the French and there would suicide bombings in France if sees fit.

7. Why the America, America crap? There have been numerous Islamic terrorist acts commited and thwarted in France, the UK, and others.
Did you know terrorists planned to fly a plane into the Eiffel Tower? I guess that was due America. Terrorism is just evil. It does not attack government directly it just kills innocent people.

Sorry exeus among others, we have not &#39;caused&#39; terrorism.


btw this is biggest turn way off topic I have ever seen in a thread (and I&#39;m guilty too)