Gay Marriage

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Originally posted by Busyman@21 February 2004 - 01:23

Who said I was ever eloquent? Fuck eloquent (as I scratch my nuts)!!!! :D


Your statements are easily refuttable.

ex,
I can sprout all types of reasons scientific reasons about why people like the color blue. I can go as so far as to say they had no choice because at birth there was a predominance of colonic in their brain. As they matured (usually in the first three years) the colonic hit their visual center causing a bluish tint.

This is the reason they have a liking of the color blue. <_<

It cannot be because well...........they just like it.
It&#39;s proven because of the scientific analysis of the last "20 years" and my personal scientific backround.

BULLSHIT&#33;&#33;&#33; (sorry if I&#39;m not being......... eloquent.

Dude I could choose to pound on dudes in the ass if I wanted to.
I don&#39;t choose too.
There are guys who have said they have neeeever been with a woman. Gay their entire life.
What if one had a woman ...finally and....LIKED IT. Would he still be gay?

According to your "pecking order" if he chose a guy, at any time, he was born gay.

This is why your argument is hogwash to me. It goes against common sense.
If their is conclusive proof that there is "something" physically different that makes me or anyone else want to slam guys in the ass or MAKES me want to be romantic with them I wouldn&#39;t hesitate too pay attention (regardless of my religious views).

Until then this has been a hoot and holler&#33;&#33;&#33; :lol:

Feel Teh Love baby

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First off, I need a translation for most of that. :lol:

Second, do you throw away a whole bag of potato chips because 1 is burn&#39;t. You seem hung up on a rather trivial comment.

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According to your "pecking order" if he chose a guy, at any time, he was born gay.

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I&#39;m saying that a person may lead a straight life due wanting to fit in and be normal. He may date, he might bleep the prom queen, but at some point, like college, when family is not around and he is relatively annonymous, he might attempt to dabble in his fantasies. That is why so many people come out in college. Others push to get married hoping that will chase those "bad" thoughts away. There are many anecdotes about the man with 3 children who finally tells his wife he is gay and moves out.

Why do you think suicide is so much higher in gays. They have these feeling, and it makes them guilty because they have been brought up to believe them to be sinful.

So how can you say gays choose this lifestyle when most actually fight it because of societal and family pressures.



Not EVERYONE (wait a sec, let me scratch my left nut, ahh better) who has an encounter with the same sex is a sequestered homosexual, but, perhaps like Skweeky, they have attraction for both sexes.

I think if you consider people who label themselves bisexual, you will find true bisexuals and another group that this making an effort to appear somewhat socially acceptable. You will find that later they convert to pure homosexuality.

So don&#39;t get hung up on that one line, hope that clears up that statement and your balls don&#39;t get in a twist.

Talking about common sense, how do you explain a gay priest or gay animals?

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Originally posted by hobbes@20 February 2004 - 16:30
Your link does not disprove my statement.&nbsp; In fact, the question asked is wrong, she is not a hermaphrodite, but has testicular feminization which is completely different.&nbsp;

She is tall with large breats which is typical for TF.
She has not been able to have children, which hermaphrodites should.


But, whether she is or not is not relevant to my point.&nbsp; I meant no disrespect to her, I&#39;m sorry Jamie. :(

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that link does go on to discuss the symptoms you&#39;ve described, which are not those of a hermaphrodite-- they used the term because it&#39;s been attached to common variations of the "jamie lee curtis is a man" legend. and hermaphrodite is the traditional layman&#39;s term to describe a whole variety of sexual ambiguities, regardless of medical accuracy. of course the link doesn&#39;t disprove your statement-- the only thing that would disprove it would be for jamie lee to spread her legs and submit to thorough examination, along with public disclosure of her hospital records, preferably on international television.

which sorta begs the question, why does anyone need to disprove your statement, when you haven&#39;t offered anything to prove it? even one single link purporting to feature a quote from jamie lee curtis or her physician admitting that she is a genetic male... well... i&#39;m sure a lot of people would be both astonished and deeply interested to read. :P

Wizard,

Are you saying that becoming homosexual is a choice which is effected by upbringing and experience, and is not related to genetics in any way?

Then why do homosexuals have a higher suicide rate, why are people who devote their life to Christ being found to be gay?

You say that hormones cannot make you gay or straight, just masculine or feminine and that sexual identity is a product of programming (societal?).

Who programs their kids to be gay? How do gays arise in a society where homosexual activity is punished with death? Who programmed these people?

Why do homosexuals fight thier calling. I know of several people who came out in college. They told me that they thought their feelings " would pass" and they could be "normal", but eventually they just gave in.

If I have misinterpreted your posts (the bold statements) then perhaps you can clarify.

I feel that homosexual activity in the animal kingdom, from chimpanzees to fruit bats, confirms that there is a strong genetic aspect to this phenomenon.

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Originally posted by 3RA1N1AC+21 February 2004 - 02:10--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (3RA1N1AC &#064; 21 February 2004 - 02:10)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-hobbes@20 February 2004 - 16:30
Your link does not disprove my statement. In fact, the question asked is wrong, she is not a hermaphrodite, but has testicular feminization which is completely different.

She is tall with large breats which is typical for TF.
She has not been able to have children, which hermaphrodites should.


But, whether she is or not is not relevant to my point. I meant no disrespect to her, I&#39;m sorry Jamie. :(

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that link does go on to discuss the symptoms you&#39;ve described, which are not those of a hermaphrodite-- they used the term because it&#39;s been attached to common variations of the "jamie lee curtis is a man" legend. of course the link doesn&#39;t disprove your statement-- the only thing that would disprove it would be for jamie lee to spread her legs and submit to thorough examination, along with public disclosure of her hospital records, preferably on international television.

which sorta begs the question, why does anyone need to disprove your statement, when you haven&#39;t offered anything to prove it? even one single link purporting to feature a quote from jamie lee curtis or her physician admitting that she is a man... well... i&#39;m sure a lot of people would be both astonished and deeply interested to read. :P[/b][/quote]
Yes, but would you still do her?

Not now I wouldn&#39;t, but there was a scene from A Fish Called Wanda where she looked scrumptcious. Call me queer, but I would have done her then for sure&#33;

gee, i dunno. i&#39;m not really into genetic males. and according to your earlier post, being tall and having big tits is indicative of... uh... being genetically male. waitasec, that&#39;s not right... :blink:

i do find it funny when people worry about homosexuals raising children because they feel that the child will grow up gay when all homosexuals are the result of a hetrosexual relationship of whatever degree.
I have read posts here saying people choose to be gay and they have a choice to not live the gay lifestyle and instead have hetrosexual relationships. To me a homosexual is a person that finds the same gender sexually exciting, just because they don&#39;t act on it doesn&#39;t make them any less a homosexual just as someone that is celebate doesn&#39;t make them any less hetrosexual.... is a 50 year old virgin gay just because they haven&#39;t had sex with someone of the opposite gender? NO.
It really doesn&#39;t matter if it&#39;s genetic or not, the fact is that homosexuality exists and as long as it involves consenting adults only why all the fuss?

Being strait,
I tell you i really dont care. I think if it could make more people happy, then allow it. What&#39;s the harm about the same sex getting married, since they will live together anyways. A marrage wont stop anyone, but might improve some.

btw there are already gay commited relationships that raise children.

People&#39;s sexuality should not be a point of discrimination; everybody should have the same rights and privileges.

Christians have tried to claim marriage for there own, but marriage has been around along time before the religion ever existed, to argue with Christians or other religions depending on there beliefs about sexuality when it comes to this issue of dictating is a moot point, because there belief compels them to be against it unless that church/religion/belief is of a more flexible nature....

[Off topic]
I as a kid use to be a Christian, but I came to understand that it’s all bollocks, to base your understanding of the universe on a book of fairy tales, where every disaster is judgment day is naive at best...
Also most of the prophetic beliefs tend to be of centralistic nature, September 11th is a good example of this, Allot of Western Christians saw that as a sign of the judgment day ect, when something similar happens in some "foreign countries" its considered nothing of any importance...
[/off topic]


When Apathy rains as it does in the US, it gives Christians more power than they ever deserve and the only people to blame are people themselves.

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Are you saying that becoming homosexual is a choice which is effected by upbringing and experience, and is not related to genetics in any way?

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Yes. Genetics can make you more feminine or masculine - which have a social effect which leads to a mental effect.

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Then why do homosexuals have a higher suicide rate, why are people who devote their life to Christ being found to be gay?

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Suicide is a sensitive subject but one explaination for homosexuals having a higher suicide rate could be the mental stress they experience as a result of being gay e.g. society pressure (will they execpt me won&#39;t they), self questioning (am i, aren&#39;t i ) < self doubt produces massive levels of stress.

I do not for one second believe that just because you devote yourself to god you have a pure mental thought process, but i also think that living that life can be extremely stressful and often they don&#39;t have any vent for there thoughts or feelings, this can lead to execesive thinking and self doubt. In the case were they become celebate, just this act can cas tremendous damage if there is no vent e.g. if a priest has sexual feelings towards a woman he will tell himself of because it is not what he has pledged to god. After a while of this confusion sets in because he has built up such a mental block against opposite sex attraction that his mind starts looking for somewhere else to explain his feelings. In the case of going in gay their are experiences in the individuals past that explain there homosexual tendancies - even if the individual is not aware of them.

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You say that hormones cannot make you gay or straight, just masculine or feminine and that sexual identity is a product of programming (societal?).

Who programs their kids to be gay? How do gays arise in a society where homosexual activity is punished with death? Who programmed these people?

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This is what i mean by programming: Upbringing, past experience, situation/environment and view (outlook e.g. religious) all affect your mental patterns. These then are a series of built habits that shape your reactions to outside stimuli. Your body stores this information e.g. body posture. Your body posture is interconnected with your mental process, one affects the other and vice versa.

People do not intentionally program anyone else, it happens by your brain and body recording traumas from your environment. These traumas can be very small but they all have an effect on you. Even in an society where it is an offence - people are still affected by their own personal experience

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Why do homosexuals fight thier calling. I know of several people who came out in college. They told me that they thought their feelings " would pass" and they could be "normal", but eventually they just gave in.

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It is the conflict of views and internal arguements that can produce mass amounts of stress and cause terrible feelings of self doubt, in many cases it is easier to give in than to continue fighting against themselves. This does not mean its genetic it means the negative mental patterns are so strong and habitaulised that the are also impossible to break.

This is quite a uncommon view, i don&#39;t want anyone to take offence, it is my view and you do not have to accept it.

P.S - Animals have though patterns to.

While all this chit-chat about why a body may be gay may be entertaining, what possible relevance does it have to the topic in question?

If Christian churches choose not to sanction a gay marriage then fine, so be it.

If they want to step outside the bounds of religion and try to influence legislation on legal marriage then fuck &#39;em, their opinion carries no more weight than mine.

As an institution "Christian" marriage doesn&#39;t seem to be doing all that well anyway, why should I pay attention to the efforts of the dysfunctional?

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Originally posted by hobbes+20 February 2004 - 20:55--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (hobbes &#064; 20 February 2004 - 20:55)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-Busyman@21 February 2004 - 01:23

Who said I was ever eloquent? Fuck eloquent (as I scratch my nuts)&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33; :D


Your statements are easily refuttable.

ex,
I can sprout all types of reasons scientific reasons about why people like the color blue. I can go as so far as to say they had no choice because at birth there was a predominance of colonic in their brain. As they matured (usually in the first three years) the colonic hit their visual center causing a bluish tint.

This is the reason they have a liking of the color blue. <_<

It cannot be because well...........they just like it.
It&#39;s proven because of the scientific analysis of the last "20 years" and my personal scientific backround.

BULLSHIT&#33;&#33;&#33; (sorry if I&#39;m not being......... eloquent.

Dude I could choose to pound on dudes in the ass if I wanted to.
I don&#39;t choose too.
There are guys who have said they have neeeever been with a woman. Gay their entire life.
What if one had a woman ...finally and....LIKED IT. Would he still be gay?

According to your "pecking order" if he chose a guy, at any time, he was born gay.

This is why your argument is hogwash to me. It goes against common sense.
If their is conclusive proof that there is "something" physically different that makes me or anyone else want to slam guys in the ass or MAKES me want to be romantic with them I wouldn&#39;t hesitate too pay attention (regardless of my religious views).

Until then this has been a hoot and holler&#33;&#33;&#33; :lol:

Feel Teh Love baby

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First off, I need a translation for most of that. :lol:

Second, do you throw away a whole bag of potato chips because 1 is burn&#39;t. You seem hung up on a rather trivial comment.

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According to your "pecking order" if he chose a guy, at any time, he was born gay.

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I&#39;m saying that a person may lead a straight life due wanting to fit in and be normal. He may date, he might bleep the prom queen, but at some point, like college, when family is not around and he is relatively annonymous, he might attempt to dabble in his fantasies. That is why so many people come out in college. Others push to get married hoping that will chase those "bad" thoughts away. There are many anecdotes about the man with 3 children who finally tells his wife he is gay and moves out.

Why do you think suicide is so much higher in gays. They have these feeling, and it makes them guilty because they have been brought up to believe them to be sinful.

So how can you say gays choose this lifestyle when most actually fight it because of societal and family pressures.



Not EVERYONE (wait a sec, let me scratch my left nut, ahh better) who has an encounter with the same sex is a sequestered homosexual, but, perhaps like Skweeky, they have attraction for both sexes.

I think if you consider people who label themselves bisexual, you will find true bisexuals and another group that this making an effort to appear somewhat socially acceptable. You will find that later they convert to pure homosexuality.

So don&#39;t get hung up on that one line, hope that clears up that statement and your balls don&#39;t get in a twist.

Talking about common sense, how do you explain a gay priest or gay animals?[/b][/quote]
Gay priests:

Many gay males trying to fight their sexual desires for males turn to the priesthood. It doesn&#39;t work. Their religion is in conflict with what they like.

Then there are some that are outwardly gay...well....I&#39;ll never understand that one.

Gay animals? :blink:

They male sticks it to another male because there is a hole there and it feels good?
:huh:


Basically to sum up ALL your earlier comments

THIS MUST BE TRUE:

Through science, a test can be performed after age 5 that will determine what gender they will be attracted to. There is irrefutable evidence of this.

Thank you hobbes <_<

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Originally posted by clocker@21 February 2004 - 00:37
their opinion carries no more weight than mine.

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Duly noted :lol: :lol:

American Psychiatric Assoiciation- updated in 2000

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No one knows what causes heterosexuality, homosexuality, or bisexuality.
Homosexuality was once thought to be the result of troubled family dynamics or faulty psychological development. Those assumptions are now understood to have been based onmisinformation and prejudice.

Currently there is a renewed interest in searching for biological etiologies for homosexuality. However, to date there are no replicated scientific studies supporting any specific biological etiology for homosexuality
.

Similarly, no specific psychosocial or family dynamic cause for homosexuality has been identified, including histories of childhood sexual abuse. Sexual abuse does not appear to be more prevalent in children who grow up to identify as gay, lesbian, or bisexual, than in children who identify as heterosexual.

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American Psychological Association- updated in 2004

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Is Sexual Orientation a Choice?

No, human beings can not choose to be either gay or straight. Sexual orientation emerges (note is says "emerges", NOT formed, see below)for most people in early adolescence without any prior sexual experience. Although we can choose whether to act on our feelings, psychologists do not consider sexual orientation to be a conscious choice that can be voluntarily changed.

What Causes a Person To Have a Particular Sexual Orientation?

There are numerous theories about the origins of a person&#39;s sexual orientation; most scientists today agree that sexual orientation is most likely the result of a complex interaction of environmental, cognitive and biological factors. In most people, sexual orientation is shaped at an early age. There is also considerable recent evidence to suggest that biology, including genetic or inborn hormonal factors, play a significant role in a person&#39;s sexuality. In summary, it is important to recognize that there are probably many reasons for a person&#39;s sexual orientation and the reasons may be different for different people.

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I consider both sources less reliable than myself, but they have websites and I don&#39;t, so they get all the props&#33;

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Originally posted by hobbes@21 February 2004 - 00:59
American Psychiatric Assoiciation

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No one knows what causes heterosexuality, homosexuality, or bisexuality.
Homosexuality was once thought to be the result of troubled family dynamics or faulty psychological development. Those assumptions are now understood to have been based onmisinformation and prejudice.

Currently there is a renewed interest in searching for biological etiologies for homosexuality. However, to date there are no replicated scientific studies supporting any specific biological etiology for homosexuality
.

Similarly, no specific psychosocial or family dynamic cause for homosexuality has been identified, including histories of childhood sexual abuse. Sexual abuse does not appear to be more prevalent in children who grow up to identify as gay, lesbian, or bisexual, than in children who identify as heterosexual.

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American Psychological Association

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Is Sexual Orientation a Choice?

No, human beings can not choose to be either gay or straight. Sexual orientation emerges (note is says "emerges, NOT formed, see below)for most people in early adolescence without any prior sexual experience. Although we can choose whether to act on our feelings, psychologists do not consider sexual orientation to be a conscious choice that can be voluntarily changed.

What Causes a Person To Have a Particular Sexual Orientation?

There are numerous theories about the origins of a person&#39;s sexual orientation; most scientists today agree that sexual orientation is most likely the result of a complex interaction of environmental, cognitive and biological factors. In most people, sexual orientation is shaped at an early age. There is also considerable recent evidence to suggest that biology, including genetic or inborn hormonal factors, play a significant role in a person&#39;s sexuality. In summary, it is important to recognize that there are probably many reasons for a person&#39;s sexual orientation and the reasons may be different for different people.

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I consider both sources less reliable than myself, but they have websites and I don&#39;t, so they get all the props&#33;

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I partially agree. I guess I don&#39;t CHOOSE to LIKE the color black.

I just like it.

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However, to date there are no replicated scientific studies supporting any specific biological etiology for homosexuality.

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I&#39;ve said that all along

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In most people, sexual orientation is shaped at an early age.

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Agreed.

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There is also considerable recent evidence to suggest that biology, including genetic or inborn hormonal factors, play a significant role in a person&#39;s sexuality.

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Still significantly unproven also. AIDS was thought to be cancer many years ago.
I read a journal that has debunked many studies "proving" sexual orientation is something you&#39;re born with. I can&#39;t find the damn thing and I&#39;ve been looking since yesterday&#33;&#33;&#33; SHIT&#33;&#33;

I do remember one study it debunked had to do with scientists finding something in the brain that homosexuals had more or less of (I can&#39;t remember which).
It was debunked with evidence that a great percentage of heterosexuals had roughly the same amount...aww I&#39;ll shut up about it until I find the journal.

There was also an article in Newsweek that debunked it and pointed to it&#39;s source.
Unless I can find the article, it will be hard to find the source on that one.

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In summary, it is important to recognize that there are probably many reasons for a person&#39;s sexual orientation and the reasons may be different for different people.&nbsp;

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Exactly. The world is full of influences.
Also, some people may just be plain nuts. Who knows.

Again you like what you like ;)

:frusty:

And when they&#39;ve given you their all
Some stagger and fall, after all it&#39;s not easy
Banging your heart against some mad bugger&#39;s wall.

Pink Floyd- The Wall

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Originally posted by hobbes@21 February 2004 - 05:30
:frusty:

And when they&#39;ve given you their all
Some stagger and fall, after all it&#39;s not easy
Banging your heart against some mad bugger&#39;s wall.

Pink Floyd- The Wall

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Do you think your condescension is genetic, hormonal, learned or a mixture ?

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Originally posted by Agrajag
Do you think your condescension is genetic, hormonal, learned or a mixture ?

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Having reviewed this thread I would say its definitely due to the environment.

Some people are still comparing colour preference to sexuality and using that as proof that sexuality isnt genetic.

The reason people are getting so upset about this issue is because they think that if sexuality is dictated by genetics then you cant have free will.

Both of these things (color preference = sexuality + genetics does not allow for free will) have been dealt with, but no ones listening, so whats the point? :frusty:

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Originally posted by clocker@21 February 2004 - 04:37
While all this chit-chat about why a body may be gay may be entertaining, what possible relevance does it have to the topic in question?

If Christian churches choose not to sanction a gay marriage then fine, so be it.

If they want to step outside the bounds of religion and try to influence legislation on legal marriage then fuck &#39;em, their opinion carries no more weight than mine.

As an institution "Christian" marriage doesn&#39;t seem to be doing all that well anyway, why should I pay attention to the efforts of the dysfunctional?

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Here, here. My point exactly.
Only worded much better.

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Originally posted by leftism@21 February 2004 - 11:52

Both of these things (color preference = sexuality + genetics does not allow for free will) have been dealt with,&nbsp; but no ones listening, so whats the point?&nbsp; :frusty:

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The point may be that other people&#39;s certainty, with regard to your omniscience, may not be as complete as your own. This may lead them to have an opinion at odds with your&#39;s. I know this may come as a surprise, but you should at least consider the possibility.

I am loathe to get into the nature vs nurture debate as it would appear to as much a quagmire as most scientific debates on human behaviour.

I agree with RF. Whilst on a bike in Edinburgh I ran into the back of a double decker bus (which had stopped at a bus stop) because a very pretty girl was getting out of Triumph Spitfire wearing an exceedingly short skirt. Even her laugh as I straightened my handle bars sounded musical and attractive - no man has turned my head in this way. I find it hard to believe that someone can choose this path simply because it seems like a bit of a wheeze. .

However, whether triggers are fired at an early age to determine preferences (such as a liking for shoes or rubber or chickens etc.,) or whether it is predetermined I do not know. Nevertheless, once the trigger is fired it would appear to be permanent. The difficulty is in saying that someone is to be discriminated against for something beyond their control. Therefore there is an emotional attraction to the argument that homosexuals are just being difficult and wilful.

I&#39;m surprised that nobody has brought up the Corpus Callosum. It is the bundle of nerves that connect the 2 halves of the brain. It is proven that some straight men have a corpus collosum that is nearly 2 times the size of gay men, and the reverse for women. Granted, there was a overlap of gray area...but perhaps this is where enviroment comes into play. But, as far as I know, there have been no cases where an overally small corpus callosum resulted in a straight man, or an overly large corpus callosum resulted in a gay man.

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Originally posted by leftism+21 February 2004 - 07:52--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (leftism @ 21 February 2004 - 07:52)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Agrajag
Do you think your condescension is genetic, hormonal, learned or a mixture ?

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Having reviewed this thread I would say its definitely due to the environment.

Some people are still comparing colour preference to sexuality and using that as proof that sexuality isnt genetic.

The reason people are getting so upset about this issue is because they think that if sexuality is dictated by genetics then you cant have free will.

Both of these things (color preference = sexuality + genetics does not allow for free will) have been dealt with, but no ones listening, so whats the point? :frusty: [/b][/quote]
The only thing was hardwired was the urge to fuck.

There is no chemical from birth that says


Fuck this person because you see they have a penis
Fuck that person because you see they have a vagina.

Just fuck.

Personal preference determines the rest.

There&#39;s no chemical in the brain from birth that tells me to turn away once I see a dick.

And regarding dwightfry&#39;s comment, what...... a BIsexual has a medium sized corpus callosum? hogwash&#33;&#33;&#33;

dwight read how many people were used in that study then come back.

Also read and see how many other groups back that study.

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Originally posted by Agrajag+21 February 2004 - 10:47--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Agrajag &#064; 21 February 2004 - 10:47)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-hobbes@21 February 2004 - 05:30
:frusty:

And when they&#39;ve given you their all
Some stagger and fall, after all it&#39;s not easy
Banging your heart against some mad bugger&#39;s wall.

Pink Floyd- The Wall

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Do you think your condescension is genetic, hormonal, learned or a mixture ?[/b][/quote]
I downloaded my condescension from the interweb.

I also downloaded the insight to know when no further posts will change anyones mind.

I gave my best effort, I was unable to penetrate anothers preconceived point of view, so I thanked everyone for the fish and walked away, maybe next time.

What is remarkable is that we are on page 5 and there has been no flaming and in a thread about homosexuality it seems almost unthinkable that no one has been called a "prick".

As for my quotes from the American Psychiatric Association and American Psychological Association, Busyman may have felt they were directed at him, but they were for Wizardmon and his Freudianesque view points, particularly the line in red.

Hobbes

It is quite possible for people to disagree, sometimes even in a heated way, without resorting to offensive language. However some people choose to use such language, often more for the effect and to amuse themself by the result than a genuine sense of anger. It is interesting to see a topic such as this ebb and flow without such manipulation. It is rather refreshing.

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Originally posted by hobbes+21 February 2004 - 14:58--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (hobbes @ 21 February 2004 - 14:58)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

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Originally posted by Agrajag@21 February 2004 - 10:47
<!--QuoteBegin-hobbes

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@21 February 2004 - 05:30
:frusty:

And when they&#39;ve given you their all
Some stagger and fall, after all it&#39;s not easy
Banging your heart against some mad bugger&#39;s wall.

Pink Floyd- The Wall

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Do you think your condescension is genetic, hormonal, learned or a mixture ?

---

I downloaded my condescension from the interweb.

I also downloaded the insight to know when no further posts will change anyones mind.

I gave my best effort, I was unable to penetrate anothers preconceived point of view, so I thanked everyone for the fish and walked away, maybe next time.

What is remarkable is that we are on page 5 and there has been no flaming and in a thread about homosexuality it seems almost unthinkable that no one has been called a "prick".

As for my quotes from the American Psychiatric Association and American Psychological Association, Busyman may have felt they were directed at him, but they were for Wizardmon and his Freudianesque view points, particularly the line in red. [/b][/quote]
hobbes, you prick (oh and I find that amusing and am not angry Agrajag) :lol:

but on serious note......
hobbes I didn&#39;t think your post was directed at me but I had to comment.

Nor was my point of view preconceived. When I first saw a header for a study claiming homosexuality was something you are born with I thought it would be interesting. I&#39;ve read of men acting violently due to an extra Y chromosome and many others things so it didn&#39;t seem "too" far fetched. Unfortunately, the evidence to the contrary doesn&#39;t back this up and hasn&#39;t been duplicated to the degree of let&#39;s say testing for HIV.

I don&#39;t jump at the first study I read or , for that matter, the second.

I remember the same discussion with you regarding Glucosamine Chondroitin but that&#39;s another topic.

Lets remember that humans are not the only species with homosexuals. there are many many species of animals where there are homosexuals (including apes). and there are theorys that it is actually GOOD for the species because the animals without children can nurture other young-uns and help out.

Don&#39;t get me started on the glucose conundrum. Sugar is useful for the body to survive, but too much is a bad thing, end of story.

Thanks for the thought hobbes.

Someone somewhere said: science is just a string of disproven theories.
So excuse me if i don&#39;t agree. My view is just that, mine. I didn&#39;t get it from freud so whether it&#39;s vaguely freudian has no relevance.

Two studies in america prove nothing, there could be completely contrasting results in europe. In most scientific reports people include the results that back up thier hypothesis and don&#39;t cover those that don&#39;t.

My view is just a different way of looking at things, science understands a very small proportion of this universe, maybe just maybe others understand more.

One question: In ten years when there is more biological evidence - what if a straight man was told he was biologically gay.

I try to encompass what i have learn&#39;t from TCM with Modern Medical Theory - as i believe that both have a lot to learn from each other.

I did not post two studies. I posted the position statements of the American Psychiatric and Psychologic Associations.

So we have my position which is supported by all the doctors in America and then your theory which is supported by you.

Not just that but your particular theories have been refuted in large part by these Associations.

It is important to note that my theory was based on my personal education and experience, I only looked up those sources later to see what the medical world was saying. They pretty much backed me point for point.

Forgive me if I don&#39;t see things your way.

Quote:

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Originally posted by hobbes@21 February 2004 - 21:48
I did not post two studies. I posted the position statements of the American Psychiatric and Psychologic Associations.

So we have my position which is supported by all the doctors in America and then your theory which is supported by you.

Not just that but your particular theories have been refuted in large part by these Associations.

It is important to note that my theory was based on my personal education and experience, I only looked up those sources later to see what the medical world was saying. They pretty much backed me point for point.

Forgive me if I don&#39;t see things your way.

---

Two studies, Two statements now your just splitting hairs. :P

All the doctors in america - thats a bit of a wide statement, if you don&#39;t mind me saying.

As i said before: its an uncommon view.

My points are also from my experience.

Your forgiven [/joke]

It&#39;s been fun discussing with you. ;)

Quote:

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Originally posted by hobbes@21 February 2004 - 17:48
I did not post two studies. I posted the position statements of the American Psychiatric and Psychologic Associations.

So we have my position which is supported by all the doctors in America and then your theory which is supported by you.

Not just that but your particular theories have been refuted in large part by these Associations.

It is important to note that my theory was based on my personal education and experience, I only looked up those sources later to see what the medical world was saying. They pretty much backed me point for point.

Forgive me if I don&#39;t see things your way.

---

Actually hobbes, The American Psychiatric&#39;s position backs up my position not yours.

Thanks for the post. ;)

Quote:

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Originally posted by Agrajag@21 February 2004 - 15:46
Don&#39;t get me started on the glucose conundrum. Sugar is useful for the body to survive, but too much is a bad thing, end of story.

---

:huh:

Quote:

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Originally posted by Busyman@22 February 2004 - 03:26

Actually hobbes, The American Psychiatric&#39;s position backs up my position not yours.

Thanks for the post. ;)

---

American Psychiatric Assoiciation- updated in 2000

Quote:

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No one knows what causes heterosexuality, homosexuality, or bisexuality.
Homosexuality was once thought to be the result of troubled family dynamics or faulty psychological development. Those assumptions are now understood to have been based onmisinformation and prejudice.

Currently there is a renewed interest in searching for biological etiologies for homosexuality. However, to date there are no replicated scientific studies supporting any specific biological etiology for homosexuality
.

Similarly, no specific psychosocial or family dynamic cause for homosexuality has been identified, including histories of childhood sexual abuse. Sexual abuse does not appear to be more prevalent in children who grow up to identify as gay, lesbian, or bisexual, than in children who identify as heterosexual.

---

Actually, it does not. It admits that the exact cause of homosexuality is under investigation and biologic etiologies are the top area of research. It does not state that the biologic role is not promising, it states that they have yet to find a "specific entity" to explain it.

There is absolutely no mention that homosexuality is a choice. They do note on their website that when homosexuals come in to be "repaired" and made straight, no therapy has been shown to work. Why would anyone want to change but not be able if it is just a matter of free will?

The more recent Psychological Association directly contradicts your position. Please be sure to E-mail them and tell them it is all hogwash and that quite frankly this is all a matter of commonsense to Busyman, end of story.

You know what, I have decided, because of my free will, that rocks smell good and taste better. Whenever I see them, I will begin Pavlovian salivation.

Ok, I got a rock. What? I am not salivating, and it really has no taste. How come I cannot make it taste delicious by my free will. Oh right, my biology is not programmed to see rocks as a source of nutrients, so my brain does not make me want to eat them by giving them a delightful odor and taste. Guess I&#39;m just hardwired. Just like the dung beetle is hardwired to think dung smells delightful and eats it.

We act as our brains&#39; tell us.

Quote:

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Originally posted by hobbes@21 February 2004 - 19:09
Just like the dung beetle is hardwired to think dung smells delightful and eat it.

We act as our brains&#39; tells us.

---

Yeah.

Don&#39;t knock it till you&#39;ve tried it.

I wonder what the APA has to say about that?

Sorry.
Carry on.

Quote:

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Originally posted by Agrajag
The point may be that other people&#39;s certainty, with regard to your omniscience, may not be as complete as your own. This may lead them to have an opinion at odds with your&#39;s. I know this may come as a surprise, but you should at least consider the possibility.

---

:frusty: :frusty: :frusty: :frusty: :frusty:

Dude, please think for a second before jumping into battle with all guns blazing.

If these people do not agree with me or hobbes then they should say WHY. Instead you guys are just repeating yourselves and not taking note of what anyone else is saying. This is what I was referring to. Not the fact that people disagree with me per se.

Lets try again...

You can have free will and genetics. This is obvious by looking at the world around you. The way you guys are talking its like you can only have one or the other.

Colour preference is not the same as sexuality. Sexuality is a unique characteristic and is hardwired, colour preference is a trivilaity probably produced by experience and environment.

Can you answer these 2 points without repeating the same sentence over and over again? I think not.

All this because you guys want everyone to believe that homosexuality is a lifestyle choice and they arent just born that way?

I sense another agenda behind all this.... "Methinks he doth protest too much"

Quote:

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Originally posted by leftism+22 February 2004 - 09:23--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (leftism &#064; 22 February 2004 - 09:23)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-Agrajag
The point may be that other people&#39;s certainty, with regard to your omniscience, may not be as complete as your own. This may lead them to have an opinion at odds with your&#39;s. I know this may come as a surprise, but you should at least consider the possibility.

---

:frusty: :frusty: :frusty: :frusty: :frusty:

Dude, please think for a second before jumping into battle with all guns blazing.

If these people do not agree with me or hobbes then they should say WHY. Instead you guys are just repeating yourselves and not taking note of what anyone else is saying. This is what I was referring to. Not the fact that people disagree with me per se.

Lets try again...

You can have free will and genetics. This is obvious by looking at the world around you. The way you guys are talking its like you can only have one or the other.

Colour preference is not the same as sexuality. Sexuality is a unique characteristic and is hardwired, colour preference is a trivilaity probably produced by experience and environment.

Can you answer these 2 points without repeating the same sentence over and over again? I think not.

All this because you guys want everyone to believe that homosexuality is a lifestyle choice and they arent just born that way?

I sense another agenda behind all this.... "Methinks he doth protest too much"[/b][/quote]
If you read my posts I have not argued either side of the cause issue, as it is not the subject being discussed, or at least proposed by the thread starter. It is a Poll with regard to whether people should be allowed to marry. My only point with regard to the cause of homosexuality is that it does not matter. Whether it is genetic, hormonal, learned or a combination of these and other factors it seems agreed that it is not a matter of choice. As such should not effect people&#39;s rights.

I merely observed that other people&#39; opinions may differ from your&#39;s, no matter how many times you argue your point. As this subject is far from being decided within the scientific community it remains a matter of speculation, conjecture and opinion. You appear to think that your position is definitive, I and others disagree. I don&#39;t necessarily disagree with what you are saying, just the confidence with which you say it.

Banging your head against the wall, metaphorically or otherwise magnifies this impression. I hardly think what I said could be described as "all guns blazing" though I suppose the hyperbole suited your argument.

Please read the second last sentence in the first paragraph above, it is the position I have taken all along and is directly contradictory to that which you accuse me off.

11 pages with no flaming...

Please cool it a little guys, i sense that people are starting to get a tad annoyed with each other now, which is when the bottles start flying....

@agrajag

I can see your having trouble keeping track of whats going on here so lets have a quick recap.

Agrajag attacks Hobbes "condescension".

Quote:

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Originally posted by agrajag+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (agrajag)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Do you think your condescension is genetic, hormonal, learned or a mixture?[/b]

---

Leftism explains that Hobbes "condescension" is due to busyman repeating the same arguments without addressing the counter-arguments put to him with regards to colour preference and free will.

Quote:

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Originally posted by leftism+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (leftism)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Having reviewed this thread I would say its definitely due to the environment.

Some people are still comparing colour preference to sexuality and using that as proof that sexuality isnt genetic.

The reason people are getting so upset about this issue is because they think that if sexuality is dictated by genetics then you cant have free will.

Both of these things (color preference = sexuality + genetics does not allow for free will) have been dealt with, but no ones listening, so whats the point? [/b]

---

Agrajag doesnt understand this and trys to make out that leftism is talking about people disagreeing with him and hobbes in general.

Quote:

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Originally posted by agrajag
The point may be that other people&#39;s certainty, with regard to your omniscience, may not be as complete as your own. This may lead them to have an opinion at odds with your&#39;s. I know this may come as a surprise, but you should at least consider the possibility.

---

Leftism tries again....

<!--QuoteBegin-leftism@

If these people do not agree with me or hobbes then they should say WHY. Instead you guys are just repeating yourselves and not taking note of what anyone else is saying. This is what I was referring to. Not the fact that people disagree with me per se.[/quote]

Agrajag still doesnt understand and forgets that the focus of this exchange was busymans "keep on repeating the original argument and ignore the counter arguments" strategy.

<!--QuoteBegin-agrajag

If you read my posts I have not argued either side of the cause issue, as it is not the subject being discussed, or at least proposed by the thread starter. It is a Poll with regard to whether people should be allowed to marry. My only point with regard to the cause of homosexuality is that it does not matter. Whether it is genetic, hormonal, learned or a combination of these and other factors it seems agreed that it is not a matter of choice. As such should not effect people&#39;s rights.

I merely observed that other people&#39; opinions may differ from your&#39;s, no matter how many times you argue your point. As this subject is far from being decided within the scientific community it remains a matter of speculation, conjecture and opinion. You appear to think that your position is definitive, I and others disagree. I don&#39;t necessarily disagree with what you are saying, just the confidence with which you say it.

Banging your head against the wall, metaphorically or otherwise magnifies this impression. I hardly think what I said could be described as "all guns blazing" though I suppose the hyperbole suited your argument.

Please read the second last sentence in the first paragraph above, it is the position I have taken all along and is directly contradictory to that which you accuse me off.[/quote]

Leftism gives up and reflects on the fact that you can lead a horse to the water but you cant make him drink.

Quote:

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Why would anyone want to change but not be able if it is just a matter of free will?

---

Because they don&#39;t have the right methods?

Quote:

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We act as our brains&#39; tell us.

---

Yes but they are learned responces.

Your all wrong and i&#39;m right [/joke]

Agrajag gives up,

Realising that some people are so self-important that they only read what they themselves post. Even when asked in bold to read just one sentence, the author realising that they won&#39;t have the decency to read the whole thing.

Realising that these people may be created by inherited traits or environmental conditioning. Suspecting that it is both, given that those who create us often also nurture us.

Accepting that they are, in reality, more to be pitied than scorned, as they often end up in solely the company of those such as themselves. Since other people simply can&#39;t be bothered dealing with someone who doesn&#39;t have enough respect to even listen to them. Having judged the other inferior and as such automatically devoid of the right to an opinion.

Hobbes is indeed condescending, it is perhaps her most endearing quality. The post was made in good nature and judging by the reply (by the person concerned) taken the same way. However the condescension is normally part of a two way conversation. Not some diatribe, involving others only to avoid the accusation of intellectual masturbation.

RF

Would this be considered flaming here ? Just wanted to know as I have not seen much to judge myself against. If so, my apologies for any inconvenience.