Bush's Speech..

pure mind:

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And to all the others who didn't quite get my other point - the US is projecting an image, their actions are being interpreted by friends and foes.
Whether those perceptions are right or wrong is not for me to judge. All I was saying is, that you should ask yourself why you have enemies, why people in the middle east resent your involvement rather than discount them all as a bunch of criminals and weirdos which need to be wiped off this earth. And my other question was, isn't this current war making that perception worse, and would that be the same, if it was backed by the UN?

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thank you. this is exactly what i was trying to say before.

j2k4 - No! they dont need money to train. they dont need money to terrorize. these organizations are all over the world! destroying a government which supplies terrorists with money and such (some places in africa) would have an impact on terrorism, but it certainly wouldnt abolish it. suicide bombers in israel need to be supplied with a bomb. the governments are not the main source of funds for terrorism. there is so much dirty money floating around, black markets, etc. that a government is not necessary to provide terror money. training camps may be necessary. and it is scary to think that we cant find and dont destroy these places. i dont know... but i do know that taking any amounts of gov'ts (more than 2 of which is not going to happen) will not stop global terrorism, and will increase the amount of hatred towards the US.

lil z-
I stand by my post.


Here's something interesting:
Dearborn, Michigan, U.S.A. is home to the largest population of ex-pat Iraqis in the U.S.; I will make the assumption their commentary has credibility here.

They, through their community leaders, wish it to be known they support U.S. efforts. They realize the war is necessary, and hope Saddam is toppled, so they can return home and live in peace. They are working with U.S. authorities to set a frame-work for re-building and running Iraq as soon as they can return there after the war is over.
They all left Iraq because of Saddam's oppression, and consider themselves lucky to have made it to the U.S.

Of course, I suppose since they made it here, instead of, say, France, and some of them have actually become American citizens, they have no credibility?

Check the FOXNEWS website.

j2k4 -
ok great. but what exactly are u trying to say or prove?

foxnews...hahaha!!! :lol: :lol:
thats almost worse than CNN! :P

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Originally posted by lil_z@21 March 2003 - 02:43
j2k4 -
ok great. but what exactly are u trying to say or prove?

foxnews...hahaha!!! :lol: :lol:
thats almost worse than CNN! :P

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Oh-I forgot-You only believe what you read on links.

I tried.

Poor, poor, Iraqis-never get to go home now. American now-no credibility.

ahh whatever. u dont make much sense neways :P

it depends greatly on what the links are. these seem like legit sites, so i will go by them. personal web pages are prob worse than CNN! (look, cnn is the worst of the big news', then fox. [haha, still laughin :P !]
and the american news is definately the most biased on these subjects, so u really cant trust all of it and just go and take the news' point of view.

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Originally posted by lil_z@21 March 2003 - 04:45
ahh whatever. u dont make much sense neways :P

it depends greatly on what the links are. these seem like legit sites, so i will go by them. personal web pages are prob worse than CNN! (look, cnn is the worst of the big news', then fox. [haha, still laughin :P !]
and the american news is definately the most biased on these subjects, so u really cant trust all of it and just go and take the news' point of view.

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I'm glad you are no longer undecided.

Don't let anybody talk you out of your point of view.

Props to all the ppl out there figthing for this country... Bush i dont know if he knows that iraq has weapons but they must have something while we the u.s are attacking... GOOD LUCK TO THE US and all the countries hellpping....


Hey maybe well get free gass...

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Originally posted by j2k4+21 March 2003 - 05:44--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (j2k4 @ 21 March 2003 - 05:44)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--lil_z@21 March 2003 - 04:45
ahh whatever.&nbsp; u dont make much sense neways :P

it depends greatly on what the links are.&nbsp; these seem like legit sites, so i will go by them.&nbsp; personal web pages are prob worse than CNN&#33; (look, cnn is the worst of the big news&#39;, then fox. [haha, still laughin :P &#33;]
and the american news is definately the most biased on these subjects, so u really cant trust all of it and just go and take the news&#39; point of view.

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I&#39;m glad you are no longer undecided.

Don&#39;t let anybody talk you out of your point of view. [/b][/quote]
im sorry? im undecided/decided about what now?
whats my point of view? im taking every point of view. just cuz im persistent about what ive been talking about (i dont remember now :P ) doesnt need to draw sarcasm (or whatever that tone/mood was).
aight then. :P

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Originally posted by lil_z@21 March 2003 - 06:26
aight then. :P

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Ebonics?

I was referring to the post with which you started this-you were casting about for opinions, then; now you&#39;re not.

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Originally posted by j2k4+21 March 2003 - 15:28--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (j2k4 @ 21 March 2003 - 15:28)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--lil_z@21 March 2003 - 06:26
aight then. :P

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Ebonics?

I was referring to the post with which you started this-you were casting about for opinions, then; now you&#39;re not. [/b][/quote]
no actually, i said what do u think. i never said what do i think. :P
u never answered my question on what im undecided about??

ebonics? no that would be : aight den, bredren. :lol:

What time is it?

What Time is it?


:ph34r:

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Originally posted by lil_z@21 March 2003 - 23:10
no actually, i said what do u think. i never said what do i think. :P
u never answered my question on what im undecided about??

ebonics? no that would be : aight den, bredren. :lol:

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Yes, I recall "What do U think?"

It would not occur to me to ask you what you think.

I&#39;ll try this once again: your initial post indicated you thought the speech was "pretty convincing"; then asked what others thought.

Between then and now, you have done some reading, on your post and other links-I merely sought, in light of the anti-war sentiments you&#39;ve coughed up in more recently, confirmation that you are no longer seeking other&#39;s opinions and now consider yourself "fully-informed".

AIGHT=Ebonics-sorry-Ask any real African-American.

okaaay, AIGHT&#33; :P i said he was pretty convincing, but i cant change my mind? he was convincing, but that doesnt mean im convinced&#33; look at all the pages of somewhat informed posts&#33; i have changed my opinion back and forth, and am still on the fence.
and of course im seeking others opinions&#33; keep em comin&#33; tho most of them seem to be the same damn thing, uninformed and biased as hell (but i guess thats what makes it an opinion right?&#33;).
several people have come here with intelligent responses, why have u guys stopped?? :huh:

btw: aight = ebonics, i concede. :P

(and how do u know im not black?) :huh:

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Originally posted by lil_z@21 March 2003 - 22:44
okaaay, AIGHT&#33; :P i said he was pretty convincing, but i cant change my mind? he was convincing, but that doesnt mean im convinced&#33; look at all the pages of somewhat informed posts&#33; i have changed my opinion back and forth, and am still on the fence.
and of course im seeking others opinions&#33; keep em comin&#33; tho most of them seem to be the same damn thing, uninformed and biased as hell (but i guess thats what makes it an opinion right?&#33;).
several people have come here with intelligent responses, why have u guys stopped?? :huh:

btw: aight = ebonics, i concede. :P

(and how do u know im not black?) :huh:

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If thats aimed at me then thankyou.......if not then i&#39;ll still tell you.


The War is on....I may not agree with it, but they are MY countrymen out there...and its not THEIR fault they are there, its the politicians.

The least I can do is stop posting anything that may damage their moral.....I just want it over with as quickly as possible..

I have to support the troops.

I have a number of friends amongst them, and there are also members of this board (who, although i do not know them personaly, I consider friends) amongst them.


When its all over.....THEN I will start in again, about the next thing.

Probably not this, as you cant unspill the milk.............

word. (what, too black for ya j2?).
or would u prefer true dat&#33; :P

.

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Originally posted by lil_z@21 March 2003 - 23:44



(and how do u know im not black?) :huh:

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You mentioned earlier you were Pakistani.

I ain&#39;t tryin&#39; to pick a fight, lil z-merely seeking clarification. Don&#39;t let it bother you.

i wont, i think this insightful topic is closed. war (or should i say attacks) is/are underway. im actually kind of in shock at the amount of devastation that will arise from this event. the whole fuckin city is gonna be destroyed (along with the rest of the country).i didnt really think about it like that before. i mainly thought of the innnocents, and it looks like a whole lot more innocents are dead than i thought. do u think they will actually rebuild it with the oil money like they say, or start and then never finish, like afghanistan. (wait, did they in afghanistan?). and more choas now with the turks trying ta get a shot in with this oppportunity of weakness. spur of the moment thinking by them (or was this a plan all along?). sorry for all those kurds who will get slaughtered for no reason.
so i guess the topic should not be closed. :P

Ping Pong...

Get it?



:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :unsure: :unsure: :blink:

no...

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Originally posted by lil_z@22 March 2003 - 05:02
i wont, i think this insightful topic is closed. war (or should i say attacks) is/are underway. im actually kind of in shock at the amount of devastation that will arise from this event. the whole fuckin city is gonna be destroyed (along with the rest of the country).i didnt really think about it like that before. i mainly thought of the innnocents, and it looks like a whole lot more innocents are dead than i thought. do u think they will actually rebuild it with the oil money like they say, or start and then never finish, like afghanistan. (wait, did they in afghanistan?). and more choas now with the turks trying ta get a shot in with this oppportunity of weakness. spur of the moment thinking by them (or was this a plan all along?). sorry for all those kurds who will get slaughtered for no reason.
so i guess the topic should not be closed. :P

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Keep your ears and eyes peeled for genuine facts-I don&#39;t know what (if any) news source you trust, but I don&#39;t believe in any case we&#39;ll get the goods before we see some kind of reporting from Baghdad.
I think, on balance so far, things are going relatively cleanly, I hope I don&#39;t miss my guess.
The Turkey incursion is a bit of a surprise, and indicative of an intelligence failure/breakdown. Definitely bears watching-although the Kurds have been treated poorly by Saddam, they are, as a group, very unpredictable. The fact we are aware of the mutual animosity between themselves and the Turks, as well as Baghdad, doesn&#39;t help us, they&#39;ve always exhibited the traits of a cornered snake.

It&#39;s still early days-

yes everyone is viewed as unpredictable. my guess in baghdad: the iraqis wait it out and then use chems or a huge unpredicted force of republican guards to create a devastating amount of casualties.
i really hope they bomb the hell out of those military bases b4 they get there.

What do you think of the violence and disruptiveness of some of the protesting? I was talking with my wife earlier; she wondered why there is no coverage of some of the supportive rallies (I really hesitate to say pro-war; don&#39;t like the way it sounds)? It occurred to me the our liberal media would love to televise such an event with no sound-just a voice-over comparing it to Hitler&#39;s rallies, complete with accompanying film clips for comparison. I&#39;ve seen perhaps 1% of the coverage devoted to peaceful demonstrations, the rest to the protesters who REALLY WANT YOUR ATTENTION, DAMMIT, and will obstruct you and everything else until they&#39;re hauled off to the slammer. I can&#39;t find an emoticon to symbolize a dumbass-put it on the wishlist with your nekkid woman :lol:

well really, youd think CNN would be showing these "pro-war" rallies, but that might cause too much of an uproar about the media (like people dont see it already?&#33;). (id ont even get CNN, and im glad) i like to get the coverage on this from BBC newsworld or ABC, not as biased as american. seriously tho, no govts care a shit about protests in the international spectrum, even if most of the world takes part. protests are only good for local wrongs or misjudgements. and actually, all the protests we see are in fact anti-war, it overwhelms the others by a huge amount (well over here at least, in the middle east they might want it but cant say it out loud - or is that just how we see it??) and create a good/bad image for the people/govt and their morals.

also, the pics in iraq of surrenders and heartwarming welcomes by the iraqis for the coalition. i agree that tons want saddam out and now probly feel safer cuz theyre away from baghdad (all his real minions are in the city), but do ya think this is exagerrated? and also 8000 surrendering?? was that confirmed? i dunno, but are we getting too much bias over here on the way iraqis now recieve us? whadya think?

I only heard 2000 surrendered-too early to tell about the happy greetings.
I did get a kick out of the Iraqi citizen whacking Saddam&#39;s picture with his sandal (this is "horrendously" insulting over there).

SHUT DOWN YOUR TELEVISION&#33;

Everything is controlled by the army. There&#39;s no way to know what&#39;s true and what&#39;s not.

Close your eyes and use your brain. That&#39;s the only thing to do.

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Originally posted by ketoprak@23 March 2003 - 13:53
SHUT DOWN YOUR TELEVISION&#33;

Everything is controlled by the army. There&#39;s no way to know what&#39;s true and what&#39;s not.

Close your eyes and use your brain. That&#39;s the only thing to do.

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I can use my brain with my eyes (and ears) open.

Whether or not the T.V. is on is of no import.

ok j2 now what about the english plane being shot down. whadya think?

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Originally posted by lil_z@24 March 2003 - 02:58
ok j2 now what about the english plane being shot down. whadya think?

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I think it&#39;s a goddamn shame and heads should roll-

What do you think about our P.O.W. s?

War IS hell.

My fingers remain crossed and I continue to pray.

how did they get the pows? ambush on the shippers?
i think if bush threatens about the pows being safe, theyll hurt them. theyre gonna have a tough fight in baghdad. i predict many casualties. fuckin idiots. bomb those fuckin military bases NOW&#33; (im not usually like this, but theyre not civilians, so ah well). (i dont know what im thinkin lately, ive changed i lil).

u see they know theyre gonna lose, but instead of surrendering, theyre gonna kill as many of us as possible first. damn saddam. they needed to get someone in there and just snuff him, and all the imposters. i wanna play hitman2 now. :P

[]

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Originally posted by lil_z@24 March 2003 - 03:38
how did they get the pows? ambush on the shippers?
i think if bush threatens about the pows being safe, theyll hurt them. theyre gonna have a tough fight in baghdad. i predict many casualties. fuckin idiots. bomb those fuckin military bases NOW&#33; (im not usually like this, but theyre not civilians, so ah well). (i dont know what im thinkin lately, ive changed i lil).

u see they know theyre gonna lose, but instead of surrendering, theyre gonna kill as many of us as possible first. damn saddam. they needed to get someone in there and just snuff him, and all the imposters. i wanna play hitman2 now. :P

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Apparently they ambushed what they call "follow-on" support-in this case, a maintenance company that was behind the main battle column.
I think like you they have to take &#39;em when and where they can, but I think Saddam has his forces and strategies arrayed in such a way as to cause maximum loss of life, because, as you say, he can&#39;t win.

I hope the "humanitarian aid" is well-escorted.

I have one more thing:
Have you ever heard the sixties phrase "If a tree falls in the forest, and nobody is around to hear it, does it make any noise?"
I have a corollary:
If an event occurs, and the media doesn&#39;t report it, does it actually happen?
I find it helpful to keep this and it&#39;s reverse in mind when ingesting any media output.

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Originally posted by j2k4+24 March 2003 - 02:23--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (j2k4 @ 24 March 2003 - 02:23)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--lil_z@24 March 2003 - 02:58
ok j2 now what about the english plane being shot down.&nbsp; whadya think?

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I think it&#39;s a goddamn shame and heads should roll-

What do you think about our P.O.W. s?

War IS hell.

My fingers remain crossed and I continue to pray. [/b][/quote]
I disagree.

Heads should roll over other Blue on Blue (but accidents DO happen, you have to bear this in mind) but not this one.

Patriot is an AUTOMATIC defence system. The accident should be investigated, i agree....however unless the Patriot had been set up incorrectly (unlikely...it fired and there are failsafes), then the mistake is in the communications systems.

ie No one is likely to be at fault with this one.


As to the POWs, my prayers are with them.......but Mr Bush is the one that started this particular TYPE of propaganda (which is against the Geneva Convention) with a certain Camp in Afganistan, and then another in Cuba.

If you condemn Hussain for this, you also have to condemn Bush for doing the same (with many more Prisoners).

Ive been doing that for a long time now :(

but we keep the prisoners according to the geneva convention, dont we?. (i dunno about the taliban in cuba). thats what they say. apparently we give them proper food and medical help. this is what they want us to think, and i would like to continue to think this. it is a possiblity that the iraqis will do the same, but doubtful. i posted a short article in the lounge about the POWs from the gulf war. we&#39;ve got way more POWs, so theyre gonna keep as many as possible, but saddam wont care bout them after. we&#39;ll give them back. will they?

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Originally posted by lil_z@24 March 2003 - 21:29
but we keep the prisoners according to the geneva convention, dont we?. (i dunno about the taliban in cuba). thats what they say. apparently we give them proper food and medical help. this is what they want us to think, and i would like to continue to think this. it is a possiblity that the iraqis will do the same, but doubtful. i posted a short article in the lounge about the POWs from the gulf war. we&#39;ve got way more POWs, so theyre gonna keep as many as possible, but saddam wont care bout them after. we&#39;ll give them back. will they?

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George Bush refuses to consider them POWs, despite a ruling from Geneva.


Granted, I dont believe for a second they were ever treated, or will be treated, worse than Coalition POWs...(indeed a lot better)... all of the leading authorities still claim they have been abused of their basic Human Rights.

They have been &#39;paraded&#39; in front of the worlds Media in the same way as the current crop of US prisoners...so in this at least, Bush cant really complain.


Im sure that any Iraqi&#39;s captured will be treated according to the Geneva Convention, we have already been told they will be POWs....or will they?

Have you seen any of them on TV? I believe i have, as part of the general reporting.

Question:

Isnt this also against the Convention, unless their faces are blanked out? You can still identify them, even if its not the &#39;parading&#39; that Iraq is guilty off.

This is a general question...as quite frankly i have no idea...but it certainly would appear so.

If not....then where does the &#39;Freedom of the Press&#39; stop, and &#39;Propaganda&#39; begin?

well u really cant apply freedom of the press to this situation. its being controlled, and they also like to tell us that we are seeing more here than ever before (including the vietnam war). true? i dont think so. and geoge bush refuses to call them POWs? what are they, refugees?&#33; thats funny. they are fuckin bound and lined up on the beach w/ no shoes. but i think we are helping them. did u read the article i posted? wow, thats brutal. we dont do that. no matter what they say about the afghanis. oh no, we have no roof in cuba&#33; ahh, the sun&#33; fuck we have human rights, but the iraqis will lie about this. they (americans) will get brutalized and torchered. some r gonna die. we need ta raid dat shit&#33; its all propaganda, for us and them. even tho they already have a terrible image with their govt. they have patriotism only cuz we&#39;re invading&#33; not cuz of saddam&#33; :angry:

A number of them are already dead.

Sometimes watching news other than American helps in getting the whole picture.

:ninja:

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Originally posted by MagicNakor@24 March 2003 - 22:58
A number of them are already dead.

Sometimes watching news other than American helps in getting the whole picture.

:ninja:

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r u tryin to be a smartass? i dont live in the us. i watch BBC newsworld for dis shit. i live in canada. that article is canadian. how many r dead? where did u see this? i havent watched it today so...
and how do they know for sure?? :huh:

No. I&#39;m not trying to be a smartass.

I live in Canada, as well.

I don&#39;t know how many are dead. Five, perhaps?

If people really want to know, send me a PM and I&#39;ll give you the link.

The footage isn&#39;t exactly..allowed..by the Geneva convention.

:ninja:

really? is it real footage tho?? its not from the news...
wow, thats kinda scary.
:P