I guess you can play soccer with a basketball. So it's possible :unsure:Quote:
Originally Posted by RPerry
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I guess you can play soccer with a basketball. So it's possible :unsure:Quote:
Originally Posted by RPerry
:lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by manker
Uh yeah just like it's a rule in soccer that you can knock down a player as long as you contact the ball first. :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by manker
Exceptions to a rule are just that. The exceptions in basketball allow contact.
That contact is actually used (more times) to the advantage of the offensive player.
He puts weight on the defensive players to get his position. He can spin off him, or fade away based on this.
This is intentional contact and it's in the rules. If the player is dislodged it's an offensive foul. Many players "flop" to get the call.
That's funny that you can't grasp that breaking this rule IS part of the rules. What happened is that since NBA.com didn't say, "Players can commit fouls to gain an advantage," you don't buy it. :lol: :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by SnnY
You son gets hacked going to the basket, falls on his back, misses his foul shots and his team loses because of it.
You, the parent, complains that the other team broke the rules and shouldn't gain because of it....yet they did and you still are dumbfounded. :lol: :lol: :lol:
Hmmmm....the other team broke rules yet somehow played within the rules.....HOW THE FUCK IS THAT?
Book knowledge vs. common sense.
So I take it from the green bit that you agree that the rule in basketball stipulates that no intentional contact is allowed. I am assuming that you don't believe that exceptions should be allowed to take precident over any general rules. 'Cause like I said, that's plain illogical.Quote:
Originally Posted by Busyman
Great stuff. Glad I could help.
Wrap your head around it....Quote:
Originally Posted by manker
It seems the exception does allow contact.
It means a foul is not called when this contact is made.
It means it does take precedent over the general rules about contact.
It means you are wrong.
Great stuff. Glad I could help. :lol: :lol:
So you do think that exceptions take precedence over the general rule.
Glad we're clear.
Seems little point in me taking this further, you simply will not listen to reason.
You say intentional contact is not allowed yet.....in this exception it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by manker
I don't need reason. I have common sense. It's right in front of your face.
You can't be that dense. An exception is a rule.
I totally agree, you definitely don't need reason to argue a point.
I notice you hardly ever use it, certainly I've seen little evidence of it in this thread.
Whatever....it's just not your reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by manker
You threw google rules in front of my face yet when shown a rule that contradicts your point, you say it doesn't.
This is not opinion. It is fact.
Contact is allowed. Wrap your head around it. You are wrong and it the reason you skirt the captainobvious. :mellow:
Firstly, just so we are clear, I find basketball tedious and wholly American. The whole idea of inventing a game that is ideal for TV and for people who must see a score every minute or so is bizarre to me. If it's all highlights then it has no highlights.
Secondly, the argument is really over the definition of what a contact sport is. Football is designed as such and the players are often in physical contact with each other. Probably most of the time defender touch-tight to attacker etc.
Basketball on the other hand has occasional contact, due to the fact that you have several really large men in a relatively small area. This is accepted as part of the game, as is deliberately conceding a foul. Otherwise known as cheating where I come from.
I would venture that football is a contact sport, basketball is a sport with some contact.
Thirdly, to define a game by it's rules is much more reasonable than to define it by "common sense".
Lastly, the NBA is the richest league in the world with all of the best players, however one does not have to watch the NBA to watch basketball. No more than one has to watch any specific league to watch association football.
Good post. However, in regards to basketball everywhere, deliberately fouling isn't cheating.Quote:
Originally Posted by JPaul
I guess watching and/or playing the game leads to my common sense thingie.
Weirdly enough, everyone here has seen a basketball game so my thought is that the common sense should kinda kick in. We aren't robots.
In the rules as well it states that refs have ultimate control over what is called.
Regarding opinions of the sport, it's seems to be the fastest growing sport in the world. Watching soccer in contrast is tedious with very little highlights.Quote:
many of the rules are written in general terms while the need for the rule may have been created by specific play situations. This practice eliminates the necessity for many additional rules and provides the officials the latitude and authority to adapt application of the rules to fit conditions of play in any particular game.
If I miss a soccer match (I have watched occasionally) I really could watch Sportcenter for 10 seconds and get the jist of what happened. Watching a game tie at 1 is tedious.
Watching a game where the Bulls mount amazing come back only to have..........
http://www.nba.com/media/wizards/are...800_buzzer.jpg
Is hardly tedious.
To each his own.
Huzzah :01:Quote:
Originally Posted by Busy
So if he decides intentional, it's a foul and therefore against the rules - apart from the exception. If he decides unintentional, no foul and therefore within the rules.
See. I knew we'd get there.
===
Nice one, JP.
When you break rules is that cheating?Quote:
Originally Posted by manker
Deliberately (if that is what you meant) breaking the rules is, in my opinion cheating.
The fact that it is accepted and part of the game changes this fact not one jot.
I don't subscribe to the whole "professional foul" thing. Deliberately breaking the rules, to seek an advantage is cheating.
This goes for any sport or game. Perhaps it's just because I have the Olympian spirit, rather than the "win at all costs" mentality.
Depends.
If I mis-time a tackle in a genuine attempt to get the ball, that's not cheating. If I handle the ball on the line to prevent the ball crossing, then it's cheating.
Breaking the rules on purpose is cheating and worthy of derision, breaking the rules thro' lack of guile is not.
Anyway, why?
hi2u, JP. It appears that we decided to post almost the same thing at more or less the same time. How fortunate that neither of us are devoid of the Olympian spirit.
We should engage in simultaneous back-slapage.
It is sad indeed that "win at all costs" has for many people replaced it.Quote:
Originally Posted by manker
Busy, I really think you could do with some of that dreaded book-learning you have such issues with.
Not only do you have problems with the definition of what a contact sport is, but you don't seem to understand the concept of rules either. It can't possibly be a rule that you should break the rules. Rules are meant to be followed, period. If teams in the NBA have made it a habit of determining the outcome of a game through un-sportsmanlike behavior/breaking the rules then that's up to them, it doesn't mean that it's acceptable according to the rules.
This is shaping up to be the silliest argument I've ever had online :lol:
Well in basketball it isn't. Opinion doesn't change that fact.Quote:
Originally Posted by JPaul
It has nothing to do with win at all costs. This is why players must learn to shoot fouls shots. They aren't called free throws for nothin'.
The mere fact that you don't understand this explains the contact/non-contact doohicky.
I've never heard the term "professional foul" before. :blink:
What an odd answer. So merely because players practice free-throws, breaking the rules on purpose isn't cheating. You do know that players practice penalty shots in all sports, don't you.
Excelled yourself there, mate.
In basketball, an intentional foul is not cheating. PERIOD.Quote:
Originally Posted by manker
The term intentional foul is sometimes a misnomer. I can intend to block a shot, miss the ball, and smack the opposing players forearm.
Who knows what the player intended?
Then that isn't an intentional foul. If you make an honest attmept for the ball within the rules and you fail due to lack of skill or due to the opponant's skill and in doing so break the rules, then it's unintentional and not cheating.Quote:
Originally Posted by Busy
If you deliberately trip a player up as he's about to score. You cheated.
Silly indeed.Quote:
Originally Posted by SnnY
I deal with how the sport is played and it's strategies.
You say I don't understand the concept of rules or what a contact sport is yet..
There is contact in the sport of basketball and it's not small contact. It is sometimes harsh.
Fouls are part of the game and involved in it's strategy.
Due to how the game is played, one strategy is to go to basket strong, usually with a guarantee of getting a foul, a basket, or both.
Dwyane Wade went to the foul line numerous times in the last Wizards game by doing just that. In basketball an offensive player actually play for the contact in many cases in order to get a foul call in his favor.
Ahhhh but that's different.Quote:
Originally Posted by manker
The player is ejected.
The other team gets fouls shots.
The other team gets possession of the ball.
I remember J R Reid hitting A C Green of the Lakers in mouth, knocking out 2 teeth. :sick:
Soccer has different penalties for different "fouls" as well.
The confusion here is that in basketball it is not a free-for-all.
There are loose ball, flagrant, offensive, blocking, technical, and away from the ball, and clear path to the basket fouls.
Many of them have different penalties.
You know, There are intentional fouls at the end of a lot of close games. The team ahead will usually try to get the ball to their best free - throw shooter, while the defensive team hopes like hell they miss the free throws.... whats cheating got to do with that ?Quote:
Originally Posted by JPaul
RP they are looking at the game "on paper".Quote:
Originally Posted by RPerry
You see strategy is not explained on the website and all is seen is..
-It says contact is not allowed therefore it is a non-contact sport.
-A foul by the very definition is against the rules and is therefore frowned upon in all cases.
It's a little weird that as intelligent as some people are that they can't grasp the concepts in basketball yet it's played around the world. :huh:
Busy,
This is the same in every sport. Different rule violations carry different penalties. Basketball isn't unique in this by any means, of course you already know this.
My example of tripping someone up was the first thing that come to mind. Provided the intention is there in the mind of a player to break the rules, then he is cheating.
The only way that I can distinguish Basketball from other sports in this respect is the amount of intentional rule breaking that occurs. It seems to me that because this practice is so widespread it has become accepted among the Basketball players and fans alike. Just because a rule is broken multiple times, over and over in every game and an advantage can be gained by commiting this foul, does not mean it's not cheating any more.
This dearth of concern among your peers merely means that cheating has been incorporated into the strategy of games and accepted as a valid tactic. I think that this is to the detriment of the sport and indicative of the win-at-all-costs mentality that was mentioned earlier.
Far from this ethos being particular to Basketball, it's also manifested itself in Soccer and other sports - and has probably always been evident. Players of my favourite team sometimes dive to gain an unfair advantage. I won't dress it up and call it gamesmanship or try to waffle my way thro' an explanation of how it's not cheating simply because the practice is fairly widespread now.
He cheated, I condemn that and I hope the manager takes steps to ensure it doesn't happen again.
Grasping the concept of Basketball is easy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Busyman
Cheating isn't frowned upon nor is it sufficiantly punishable in certain areas such that it becomes an advantageous proposition. Therefore it's widespread.
They get the ball to their best free-shooter because they know that the defensive team are likely to try to cheat by making intentional fouls on the player with the ball.Quote:
Originally Posted by RPerry
If you deliberately break the rules, that's cheating.
If it were cheating, don't you think they would be thrown out of the game ? :blink:Quote:
Originally Posted by manker
They do, but in the main they get penalised.Quote:
Originally Posted by RPerry
Edit: Sorry, you seem to have a weird concept of cheating. It doesn't have to result in expulsion from the game. Surely that much is obvious.
Fouls are part of the rules. It is not cheating.Quote:
Originally Posted by manker
There is no distinction in most cases of real intention or not.
the fouls at the end of games are of the players trying to strip the ball out of the owners hands. it is a "play on the ball" and is unintentional. a play on the body is intentional and is called a flagrant.
Really though, all anyone needs to do is to watch a pacers-pistons game and that should effectively determine whether basketball is a contact sport.
watch reggie evans throwing blows under the hoop...
heres a good article
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2...wn/list/050517
Good article, however, I do have to play devil's advocate.Quote:
Originally Posted by spinningfreemanny
Near the end of a game, player aren't necessarily trying to get the ball. They are giving a foul to stop the clock. Some players are just out right grabbed to give a foul. Now it is not flagrant. It's purpose is just to stop the clock.
There is also the instance of a player simply getting away from his defender and a foul being given to stop an easy bucket.
-----
The difference in this cheating aspect is that the offensive can earn his points at the foul line. It ain't called the "charity stripe" for nuthin'.
As i say, Wade killed the Wizards with his constant trips to the line coupled with the fact he made his free throws.
I doubt he'll say...."the Wizards cheated Waahhhhhhhhhhh" :cry1:
@manny and RP -
I hope you are watching the Pistons/Pacers game.
I'm watching the 3rd quarter and the Pistons are totally demolishing the Pacers. It's like a defensive exhibition.
Ben Wallace blocks a shot then
Rasheed Wallace blocks a shot then
Richard Hamilton gets a steal then
Chauncey Billups gets a steal....
Indiana didn't even score until 5:30 left in the quarter ffs. Which only had them at 40 points. :lol: :lol: :lol:
Detroit is up by 20. :ohmy:
edit: 2 more fucking steals....they are now up by 25 with 2:31 left. This is unbelievable. 65 to 40.
I wish the Wizards could be that disciplined (that and to change their name back to the Bullets). :dry:
Indiana is almost out of time-outs in the 3rd quarter. :lol:
Deliberately breaking rules = cheating.
The opinion that cheating has become commonplace and part of the "strategy" changes naught.
Any fancy dan, emotive, condescending post suggesting that breaking the rules = part of the game does no more than diminish the game's worth.
Perhaps better to try to erradicate the cheating, than to convince others that breaking the rules is acceptable, nay laudable.
Well it seems this "cheating" is penalized according to game rules.Quote:
Originally Posted by JPaul
2 fouls shots.
I didn't get it when you posted basically the same retort to my post earlier.Quote:
Originally Posted by Busyman
I see now that you're saying that it's not cheating because the offender gets penalised for it.
:lol: :blink:
C'mon, you can do better than that.
MmmmkQuote:
Originally Posted by manker
There is no distinction between intentional and unintentional. Too much contact results in a foul. Pretty simple.
A flagrant foul is the closest to what you are talking about.