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Re: death sentence in the uk?
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Originally Posted by RioDeLeo
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Originally Posted by JPaul
If you bring it back when there is "absolutely no doubt" then it will never happen. Short of the Jury all being eye witnesses, in addition to all the other evidence.
There are plenty of cases of "Absolutely no doubt". Confessions, eyewitnesses known to the offender, video footage, etc.. Some offenders have even asked to be executed. Plenty of inmates have admitted their guilt, many have apologised before being executed.
How can you say a confession renders a situation devoid of doubt. People confess to things they didn't do fairly frequently.
Going back to JP's point about the jury all having to be eye witnesses; if they were not, then it could be that the evidence of the actual eye witnesses is false, police corruption can influence matters. Even if one jury member wasn't an eye witness then the jury cannot convict with no doubt whatsoever.
Video evidence can be doctored by unscrupulous lawmen.
Hardly likely but even if there is a tiny, 0.00001% chance of the eye witness' account being false or the video evidence being falsified, then the case isn't 'absolutely without doubt'.
Yes, it's pedantic but lawyers are pedantic chaps. Only passing sentence if the conviction can be made 'absolutely without doubt' would mean that the sentence is never passed.
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Re: death sentence in the uk?
Quote:
Originally Posted by RioDeLeo
Quote:
Originally Posted by JPaul
If you bring it back when there is "absolutely no doubt" then it will never happen. Short of the Jury all being eye witnesses, in addition to all the other evidence.
There are plenty of cases of "Absolutely no doubt". Confessions, eyewitnesses known to the offender, video footage, etc.. Some offenders have even asked to be executed. Plenty of inmates have admitted their guilt, many have apologised before being executed.
Tell me something, which you did not see yourself, of which you are absolutely (Definitely and completely; unquestionably.) certain.
Now tell me something which you did see yourself, which later turned out to be incorrect. You must have seen these experiments done. Where people are "absolutely" certain of what they saw and it turns out to be wrong.
The confession argument is specious. Confession is only one part of proof and must be supported by other evidence.
There is no such thing as "absolutely no doubt". Absolutely no doubt about it.
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Re: death sentence in the uk?
There are cases where there is no doubt.
As an example. A terrorist with explosives that fail to go off in a crowded train apprehended at the scene....would that be "doubtful"?
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Re: death sentence in the uk?
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Originally Posted by vidcc
There are cases where there is no doubt.
As an example. A terrorist with explosives that fail to go off in a crowded train apprehended at the scene....would that be "doubtful"?
Yes there is always doubt.
How, for example do you prove (with absolutely no doubt) he intended to explode them. Or that he was not forced to do it by someone else.
There is no such thing as absolute certainty with regard to crime.
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Re: death sentence in the uk?
he sets the detonator off manually but it fails to set the explosives off.
How about a sniper on top of a roof apprehended in the process of shooting people. He has already killed several before the police arrive on the roof to catch him.
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Re: death sentence in the uk?
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Originally Posted by vidcc
he sets the detonator off manually but it fails to set the explosives off.
How about a sniper on top of a roof apprehended in the process of shooting people. He has already killed several before the police arive on the roof to catch him.
How do you know he set the detonator off.
Someone had his family prisoner and they would be tortured and murdered if he didn't do it.
Almost by definition he is not of sound mind. He is randomly shooting people.
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Re: death sentence in the uk?
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Originally Posted by manker
How can you say a confession renders a situation devoid of doubt. People confess to things they didn't do fairly frequently.
Well l obviously didn't mean all confessions, l'm not that stupid, and of course other things must be considered. What l was alluding to were cases where maybe the crime is filmed, the person is known, eyewitnesses knew them, they were caught red-handed, they admitted it, etc.. Some people are so obviously guilty that the only way to bring doubt into it is with a lot of effort, and by using mathematics and philosophy. Or, as you say, by being pedantic.
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Re: death sentence in the uk?
If 'Absolutely No Doubt' is not acceptable(In here) then I am willing to go back to the old 'Beyond reasonable doubt'. Then execute.
If they are guity, execute. Too many do-gooders in society, see where it has got us.
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Re: death sentence in the uk?
Quote:
Originally Posted by RioDeLeo
Quote:
Originally Posted by manker
How can you say a confession renders a situation devoid of doubt. People confess to things they didn't do fairly frequently.
Or, as you say, by being pedantic.
The law is pedantic.
Well it is in the UK.
Which is what we are talking about.
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Re: death sentence in the uk?
If he can show that to be the case he has a defence
So by your standard nobody that kills is of sound mind and therefore not guilty.
He picks selected targets. Passes all psychological exams and says he is glad he did it because they deserved it
The una bomber who documented his crimes and stood up proud and unrepentant.... the btk killer who gave graphic cold details of how and why he killed..... Hitler.... pol pot..... the man that killed Sarah Payne..... the Yorkshire ripper...dahmer.... osama bin laden....charles manson....Ian Brady.
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Re: death sentence in the uk?
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Originally Posted by bigboab
If 'Absolutely No Doubt' is not acceptable(In here) then I am willing to go back to the old 'Beyond reasonable doubt'. Then execute.
If they are guity, execute. Too many do-gooders in society, see where it has got us.
Yeah, good suggestion.
Feck all the people who are released on appeal. Sometimes many years later.
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Re: death sentence in the uk?
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Originally Posted by vidcc
If he can show that to be the case he has a defence
So by your standard nobody that kills is of sound mind and therefore not guilty.
He picks selected targets. Passes all psychological exams and says he is glad he did it because they deserved it
The una bomber who documented his crimes and stood up proud and unrepentant.... the btk killer who gave graphic cold details of how and why he killed..... Hitler.... pol pot..... the man that killed Sarah Payne..... the Yorkshire ripper...dahmer.... osama bin laden....charles manson....Ian Brady.
"So by your standard nobody that kills is of sound mind and therefore not guilty." No I was replying to your scenarios.
You can quote as many cases as you want. The fact is that absolutely means "Definitely and completely; unquestionably.".
It is impossible to have absolutely no doubt (in legal terms). Which as I said is why we use "beyond reasonable doubt". That is why the judge always takes a lot of time to describe what that means, to the jury.
Even if you see something with your own eyes there is still doubt. This has been proven many times.
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Re: death sentence in the uk?
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Originally Posted by JPaul
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigboab
If 'Absolutely No Doubt' is not acceptable(In here) then I am willing to go back to the old 'Beyond reasonable doubt'. Then execute.
If they are guity, execute. Too many do-gooders in society, see where it has got us.
Yeah, good suggestion.
Feck all the people who are released on appeal. Sometimes many years later.
Some of them to murder again.
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Re: death sentence in the uk?
Quote:
Originally Posted by JPaul
Quote:
Originally Posted by vidcc
If he can show that to be the case he has a defence
So by your standard nobody that kills is of sound mind and therefore not guilty.
He picks selected targets. Passes all psychological exams and says he is glad he did it because they deserved it
The una bomber who documented his crimes and stood up proud and unrepentant.... the btk killer who gave graphic cold details of how and why he killed..... Hitler.... pol pot..... the man that killed Sarah Payne..... the Yorkshire ripper...dahmer.... osama bin laden....charles manson....Ian Brady.
"So by your standard nobody that kills is of sound mind and therefore not guilty." No I was replying to your scenarios.
You can quote as many cases as you want. The fact is that absolutely means "Definitely and completely; unquestionably.".
It is impossible to have absolutely no doubt (in legal terms). Which as I said is why we use "beyond reasonable doubt". That is why the judge always takes a lot of time to describe what that means, to the jury.
Even if you see something with your own eyes there is still doubt. This has been proven many times.
I disagree.
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Re: death sentence in the uk?
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigboab
If 'Absolutely No Doubt' is not acceptable(In here) then I am willing to go back to the old 'Beyond reasonable doubt'. Then execute.
If they are guity, execute. Too many do-gooders in society, see where it has got us.
where?
i don't see how executing a man because there is no reasonable doubt is gonna help society, neither do i see how executing a man who is no doubt guilty can forward society
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Re: death sentence in the uk?
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigboab
Quote:
Originally Posted by JPaul
Yeah, good suggestion.
Feck all the people who are released on appeal. Sometimes many years later.
Some of them to murder again.
Some to return to their families and live good productive lives, never having done anything wrong in the first place.
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Re: death sentence in the uk?
Quote:
Originally Posted by vidcc
Quote:
Originally Posted by JPaul
"So by your standard nobody that kills is of sound mind and therefore not guilty." No I was replying to your scenarios.
You can quote as many cases as you want. The fact is that absolutely means "Definitely and completely; unquestionably.".
It is impossible to have absolutely no doubt (in legal terms). Which as I said is why we use "beyond reasonable doubt". That is why the judge always takes a lot of time to describe what that means, to the jury.
Even if you see something with your own eyes there is still doubt. This has been proven many times.
I disagree.
So, you're still wrong.
This is not a matter of opinion, it is a matter of fact.
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Re: death sentence in the uk?
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Originally Posted by GepperRankins
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigboab
If 'Absolutely No Doubt' is not acceptable(In here) then I am willing to go back to the old 'Beyond reasonable doubt'. Then execute.
If they are guity, execute. Too many do-gooders in society, see where it has got us.
where?
i don't see how executing a man because there is no reasonable doubt is gonna help society, neither do i see how executing a man who is no doubt guilty can forward society
It has got us to the state that the taking of another life is just another crime. You would get more years in jail for robbing a train.
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Re: death sentence in the uk?
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Originally Posted by bigboab
Quote:
Originally Posted by GepperRankins
where?
i don't see how executing a man because there is no reasonable doubt is gonna help society, neither do i see how executing a man who is no doubt guilty can forward society
It has got us to the state that the taking of another life is just another crime. You would get more years in jail for robbing a train.
i doubt that's how criminals see it and i doubt it has any effect on crime figures
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Re: death sentence in the uk?
Quote:
Originally Posted by GepperRankins
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigboab
If 'Absolutely No Doubt' is not acceptable(In here) then I am willing to go back to the old 'Beyond reasonable doubt'. Then execute.
If they are guity, execute. Too many do-gooders in society, see where it has got us.
where?
i don't see how executing a man because there is no reasonable doubt is gonna help society, neither do i see how executing a man who is no doubt guilty can forward society
how is life without parole helping society ?
I view death as punishment only. I don't believe it is a deterrent and I don't care one way or the other if it forwards society or not.
I don't think death is appropriate for all cases, each case is unique and should be taken on its own merits.
Added to my response to your previous comment, I would have no problem being the executioner for some cases but I would for others...which is why I set a high standard of proof.
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Re: death sentence in the uk?
Quote:
Originally Posted by GepperRankins
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigboab
It has got us to the state that the taking of another life is just another crime. You would get more years in jail for robbing a train.
i doubt that's how criminals see it and i doubt it has any effect on crime figures
So you actually have doubts then? You'll get thrown out the Drawing Room.:lol::lol:
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Re: death sentence in the uk?
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigboab
Quote:
Originally Posted by GepperRankins
where?
i don't see how executing a man because there is no reasonable doubt is gonna help society, neither do i see how executing a man who is no doubt guilty can forward society
It has got us to the state that the taking of another life is just another crime. You would get more years in jail for robbing a train.
There we agree.
Crimes against people seem to be taken less seriously than crimes against property. That is also wrong and should be redressed.
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Re: death sentence in the uk?
crimes against rich peoples property. like boab pointed out before, if your house is burgled there's not much point in reporting it
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Re: death sentence in the uk?
Just about anyone is capable of taking someone elses life.
Most of those that say they arent, are naive or stupid..
Millions of years of evolution have not removed instinct, they just cover it over and let us use reason and justification to help do this. This is why the reasons for "murder" are looked at so closely by Judges before any punishment is given out.
It takes time for armies to train civilised people to kill, and 99.9% of those bullets fired are wasted in firefights by lots of scared shitless men/kids. Many of the soldiers never ever kill anyone, even in battles. And this is while the blood is hot and you dont have time to think...
Anyone that can take anothers life in cold blood; whether they are a psychopath or someone carrying out an execution, to me, are equally guilty of being "Of Unsound Mind".
Both can allow baser instincts to overcome reason on-call, and as such are both a danger to a civilized society.
Those that can kill someone diliberatly and cooly, then justify it to themselves scare me the most.
I'd rather have a pint with a murderer that does not try and justify what he did, than with an employed executioner any day of the week.
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Re: death sentence in the uk?
@ rat
I am fine if people disagree with the death penalty but I have to say your last sentence is a little twisted.
As to not justifying themselves I don't think that is possible.... even if they say they did it "because they could" they are making a justification to themselves. The flimsiness doesn't matter.
Perhaps you are thinking of someone that "repents" and admit they were wrong to do it. But that is an after thought. If they thought it was wrong they wouldn't have done it in the first place.
Either way preferring to drink with someone that killed an innocent person over one that killed a guilty one after a fair trial.... :ermm:
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Re: death sentence in the uk?
i agree with rat faced. i was gonna post the same before but didn't.
if you can plan then kill a defensless person on a schedule, there's something wrong with you.
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Re: death sentence in the uk?
Am I the only one who sees talk of the death sentance foe would be SUICIDE bombers ironic? Surely death is what they wanted? Why give it to them? Why reduce ourselves to their level? The UK will not bring back the death sentance, ever, regardless of the crimes perpetrated upon her
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Re: death sentence in the uk?
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Originally Posted by lyric101
Am I the only one who sees talk of the death sentance foe would be SUICIDE bombers ironic? Surely death is what they wanted? Why give it to them? Why reduce ourselves to their level? The UK will not bring back the death sentance, ever, regardless of the crimes perpetrated upon her
we kinda went over that already but it got ignored because it pwned the pro murder people
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Re: death sentence in the uk?
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Originally Posted by GepperRankins
i agree with rat faced. i was gonna post the same before but didn't.
if you can plan then kill a defensless person on a schedule, there's something wrong with you.
I disagree. If you can plan then kill an innocent person on a schedule, there's something wrong with you.
I see it this way:
These people obviously see nothing ethically wrong with killing innocent people themselves so logically they see no ethical reason to not have the death penalty....... after all, to them killing is ok.
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Re: death sentence in the uk?
according to one of the religions - everyone is guilty until proven innocent and only god can judge you, and he will on a certain date - all peoples (heaven / hell-you decide)
According to another religion there is a list of something like 10034 (not sure) people who will go to heaven (innocent)
According to another one your next life will get worse if you have been naughty or better if you have worked out the code.
No religion condones the the taking of an innocent life
- but whom is truelly innocent in the eye of allseer
The dudes who fired the hiroshima bomb are innocent or guilty? He (and all those in chain of command) who told them to do it is innocent or guilty? or was it merely a trendy and cool thing to do at the time?
Death is too easy - lifelong punishment is a better form of "payback".
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Re: death sentence in the uk?
an executioner would spend all their time building up to killing someone strapped down in a chair. a normal human can't kill a fellow human like that. i'd be surprised if an animal would do it, with the exception of looking for food.
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Re: death sentence in the uk?
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Originally Posted by lyric101
Am I the only one who sees talk of the death sentance foe would be SUICIDE bombers ironic? Surely death is what they wanted? Why give it to them? Why reduce ourselves to their level? The UK will not bring back the death sentance, ever, regardless of the crimes perpetrated upon her
Who said they have to be suicide bombers?
But of those that are they are not just committing suicide. They wish to kill others, and if they fail in that well then hard cheese they can die a failure. I made it quite clear that I don't view it as a deterrent.
I realise that in reality the UK will not return capital punishment but that doesn't prohibit debate about it.
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Re: death sentence in the uk?
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Originally Posted by 99%
according to one of the religions - everyone is guilty until proven innocent and only god can judge you, and he will on a certain date - all peoples (heaven / hell-you decide)
According to another religion there is a list of something like 10034 (not sure) people who will go to heaven (innocent)
According to another one your next life will get worse if you have been naughty or better if you have worked out the code.
As there is no god all of this is Irrelavant to me
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Originally Posted by 99%
No religion condones the the taking of an innocent life
- but whom is truelly innocent in the eye of allseer
I agree but I'm pretty sure in there is something about taking a guilty life.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 99%
Death is too easy - lifelong punishment is a better form of "payback".
Well if death is "too easy" what is the ethical problem with it? Somehow I thought the argument was that death was "cruel"
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Re: death sentence in the uk?
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Originally Posted by GepperRankins
if you can plan then kill a defensless person on a schedule, there's something wrong with you.
Whereas someone that killed in the heat of the moment at least understands that nothing he/she can say justifies the act of killing another Human Being.
I'm not a Christian, however i'm pretty sure that one of the big 10 that they continually ignore, is: "Thou Shalt Not Kill"..
Always seemed to me a little hypocritical in that the people that are most outspoken about keeping the Death Penalty in the USA, are those that describe themselves as devout Christians... (and no, i aint talking about you vdcc :P )
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Re: death sentence in the uk?
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Originally Posted by vidcc
I see it this way:
These people obviously see nothing ethically wrong with killing innocent people themselves so logically they see no ethical reason to not have the death penalty....... after all, to them killing is ok.
So you think it's OK to emulate the ethics of murderers.
We, the nay sayers, take the opposite view. i.e. that we should not lower ourselves to their level.
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Re: death sentence in the uk?
Nay sayest I :unsure:
... and now to trot off to the pub :)
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Re: death sentence in the uk?
Can I assume that everyone against the death penalty thinks that those responsible for the Holocaust and other mass war crimes, should only have been given life sentences?
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Re: death sentence in the uk?
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Originally Posted by bigboab
Can I assume that everyone against the death penalty thinks that those responsible for the Holocaust and other mass war crimes, should only have been given life sentences?
Yes
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Re: death sentence in the uk?
yeah.
surely, someone who doesn't believe in god should be more prolife because they know a person only has one
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Re: death sentence in the uk?
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Originally Posted by bigboab
Can I assume that everyone against the death penalty thinks that those responsible for the Holocaust and other mass war crimes, should only have been given life sentences?
I can only speak for myself, but yes.
Life meaning life obviously. With my other conditions on how they should be treated.
