In Defense Of The United States Of America

I must agree with Hobbes on the necessity for a common language.

In California, surely the poster child for PC gone amok, the test for a drivers license is available in twenty languages...

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Besides English, the basic Class C written driver license exam is also available in the following languages:

Amharic Hindi Portuguese Tagalog
Armenian Hmong Punjabi Thai
Arabic Japanese Russian Tongan
Cambodian Korean Samoan Vietnamese
Chinese Laotian Spanish Farsi/Persian

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.

You may call me jingoistic or even racist if you please, but I don't understand how you could even consider issuing a permit to someone who, at the very outset of the process, is admitting that they are unable to understand the language that is used on all the highway signs.
Does Speed Limit 65
mean anything to a person who took the test in Laotian?

I would think that 65 would mean the same.

As to most Highway Signs, the reason that they generally only have a name and distance is due to the fact that its dangerous to read while driving...just a thought. (Im generally going too fast to even read the town/distance anyway ;) )

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Originally posted by evilbagpuss+5 July 2003 - 14:58--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (evilbagpuss &#064; 5 July 2003 - 14:58)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-j2k4
It is neither another apology nor a retraction.

I am currently mulling methods for confronting you with proof of your trespasses while keeping within reasonable bounds of good taste.

I am loathe to create a new thread merely for purposes of pointing out what I feel constitutes proof of your, shall we say, lack of decorum?

You will know when or what I conclude, EBP.

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I see.. so you made the accusation and are now scrambling around looking for evidence to support it. Shouldnt the conclusion come first then the accusation?

Oh dear we&#39;re now in "OT EBP vs j2k4 land".. again. Congratulations.

It would be interesting to see you attempt to answer my critique of the article. Highly unlikely, going by past experience, but definitely interesting.

I guess your version of decorum involves avoiding the topic and inititating a personal attack, its obviously become a favourite diversionary tactic of yours.

FYI the only person I &#39;denigrated&#39;, for want of a better word, in this thread was the author of the article. I hope that helps you with this childish vendetta you seemed to be obsessed with at the moment.[/b][/quote]
You have me all wrong.

I intend to re-introduce some of your posts (many, certainly not all) that fit my definition of disrespect; not just to me, but to others as well.

I am searching for an option which would introduce, in a suitable yet tasteful fashion, posts which are indicative of your overall intent and tenor.

No reason to get antsy.

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Originally posted by 3RA1N1AC@6 July 2003 - 00:52
"spin" is a loaded term.&nbsp; it sounds a bit spin-ish of you to refer to my interpretation as "spin" and your interpretation as "my take on what the author meant."&nbsp; it strikes me as hypocritical.

blaming foreign cultures for the weakening of america&#39;s identity and advising people to love it or leave isn&#39;t intolerant in the least.&nbsp; alright.&nbsp; fair enough.&nbsp; i&#39;m just spinning.

the more i read that article, however, the more i take issue with it.&nbsp; rambling from one non sequitir to another, it manages to get so many things wrong.&nbsp; we didn&#39;t adopt "in god we trust" as the national motto because the nation was founded by christians, rather in a popular swell of religious fervor a century after the country was founded.&nbsp; the "christians" who founded the nation chose "e pluribus unum" as the national motto, which wasn&#39;t good enough for patriots of the late 1800s who surely knew better than thomas jefferson and benjamin franklin.&nbsp; sure, replace a motto underscoring a basic democratic ideal with one that erodes the division of church and state.&nbsp; excellent idea.&nbsp; defacing government institutions and the currency with religious slogans should provide christians with something to gloat about.&nbsp; call that spin, if you will.

"In the US, our Declaration of Independence was written in English AND English is the official language of all 50 states, except New Mexico (English and Spanish are official). This means that all official documents are kept in English."

state laws tend to be more wrongheaded than federal laws.&nbsp; there are plenty of examples i can think of, but none of which i&#39;ll bother to name.&nbsp; instead, i&#39;d like to read a rational explanation of why non-english speakers are such a problem in this country.&nbsp; exactly what about their lack of english comprehension is damaging to america, and toward what end?&nbsp; is it a legitimate threat, or a mere annoyance?&nbsp; if there is a problem, is the problem actually growing... or is the author of that rant simply attacking a straw man?

"Wouldn&#39;t it be great if we all used different currencies for trade, the chaos would be endless."

i disagree.&nbsp; that&#39;s hyperbolic.

also, if "gestalt" has indeed become a verb, thanks for teaching me something new.&nbsp; i&#39;d only previously encountered it as a noun.

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Hey Brainiac,

We all have spin, I am not exempt. Let us not quibble the original post, as we both find it flawed. I was pointing out that the same words can produce different interpretations.

I have already voiced my objections to the original post and tried to clarify to you my postion on the subject.

Tell me what you think I have wrong, other than quibbling the use of a single word, and we can address that.

Why is a good idea for people, unified under the citizenship of one country and adhering to the same philosophy, not be able to communicate?

You declare that state laws are more "wrongheaded". Sure, if a policy is unique to a state, but this one is accepted by them all.

My bottom line, within a country people should have the ability to communicate with one another. Right or wrong?

Actually, in the old west, banks issued their own money. People would take this money to another area and it would be worthless because these people had no faith in the issuer to recompensate them in equivalent gold. This WAS chaos&#33;


Anyway, let us get back to me and you. Read all my posts and tell me what you think is incorrect.

I will listen open-mindly and respond, my take is that we are argueing the same thing, with slightly different ways of expressing it.

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Originally posted by j2k4+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (j2k4)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>You have me all wrong.[/b]

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After seeing the same diversionary &#39;tactic&#39; displayed twice in such a short space of time I seriously doubt that.

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Originally posted by j2k4+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (j2k4)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I take this opportunity to render my most humble apologies to evilbagpuss and the rest of my board colleagues for my errant behavior in this and other threads in the forum.

I generally try to maintain a higher standard than I have exhibited the past couple of weeks.

I will re-dedicate myself to the attainment of that goal.[/b]

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The day after posting this in the "The Flame Has Gone Out Under The Melting Pot" thread you pull exactly the same stunt..

<!--QuoteBegin-EBP@
1) j2k4 posts an article.
2) A general consensus is reached that the article isn&#39;t really up to scratch.
3) j2k4 responds by initiating a "j2k4 vs EBP" battle.[/quote]

Unless the above quote was sarcasm.. in which case you clearly dont understand the true nature of your &#39;cunning&#39; "3 step plan".

Perhaps this is why no one has replied to your "News From Iraq" post? I dont want you to get any further than step 1 either.

Until you make the illusion of being "Mr Reasonable" a reality I cant see anything constructive coming from communicating with you. Oh and if you want to talk about disrespect speak to your partner S+A about his "all muslims are evil" post... or let me guess thats &#39;different&#39; eh? I assume so as you seemed quite happy to stand shoulder to shoulder with him on that one.

Oh and before you pull your usual trick.. lets look at whats happened here. You posted an article, I responded to the content of that article in a similar manner to many others in this thread and you come back with this..

<!--QuoteBegin-j2k4
EBP-you seem to consider yourself knowledgable enough about the U.S. to denigrate it and a good percentage of it&#39;s citizens, holding forth judgement upon judgement; what made you such a student of the U.S.? [/quote]

You then have the audacity to mention decorum in the same thread as if I&#39;m the one being unreasonable here. What a joke.

First, I&#39;m white and English, I have an Asian wife and really couldn&#39;t care less what colour a persons skin is or what their religious and political beliefs are. However&#33;
Several years ago a story broke in this country (England) which had me frothing at the mouth with rage. A woman, who, since childhood had adored and collected toys and ornaments of pigs was told by the local council that she would have to remove all such objects from anywhere in her home that could be seen from the street. Let me say that again.
REMOVE ALL SUCH OBJECTS....THAT COULD BE SEEN....
The reason? The local Muslim community walked past her home to their place of worship and, as we all know, the pig is "Unclean" and, therefore &#39;offensive&#39; to Muslims. The woman refused so the council obtained a Court-Order and confiscated her entire collection&#33;
The English effectively apologised to foriegners for being English and living in England.
If the story is true about the Muslim woman in Florida and she has been allowed to keep her face veiled then the Americans are apologising for being Americans in America and having American laws&#33; Nice, Eh?
If this doesn&#39;t start a war I&#39;ll say more later.

[sleep deprivation deprives this post of much of it&#39;s potential grammatical structure]

i believe that language and culture reinforce each other, and arabic speakers make fantastic baklava aka. tolerance and diversity are &#39;intensive&#39; aspects of a (post)modern society, they are not the easy and familiar road, but the effort is well worth making

i agree that being able to communicate in the state tongue is very useful and that photographic ID needs some kind of viable depiction in order to have any value
the tone of the article, however, is forceful and demanding of conformity

denial of language was a central feature of many genocides in ireland and australia and proved terribly effective in the forced erosion of culture

i know that there is no prohibition of language being suggested, but i also have seen how intolerant xenophobes can become at two speakers of a different tongue having a conversation in their earshot, this reaction is petty and if pervasive enough i would think fascist

it would be a lesser world if africa had been forgotten in america before the blues could coagulate, who knows what might not be if society homogenises itself too quickly

any gweilo who, as i have, has had the pleasure of eating yum cha in the company of a chinese speaking host, can tell you the experience with the chinese speaker is far superior to eating with other non chinese people

i think that the perceptions of communities being seen to be &#39;isolating&#39; rather than &#39;centralising&#39; should be carefully investigated
as hobbes says

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Human nature dictates that people in a strange land will gravitate toward something familiar and this is how these communities begin.

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and this is also the way that people who meet someone strange in their land may gravitate to something familiar and develop xenophobia

our way or the highway makes for a boring sounding town

difference and change are the only constant factors in the world, they should be respected appreciated and utilised not avoided or feared

Again. It seems to go back to "how you express yourself", rather than "what you have to say".

This was a main point in another recent thread.

We should all bear in mind the potential reader, and direct our posts to the person on the fence, willing to see the other point of view. And this takes a great deal of tack for the thread to effectively reach it&#39;s target.

In my office, the Indians feel more comfortably speaking in Hindi, rather than English when conversing amongst themselves. I always ask them what they are trying to hide? As always it is nothing, and we all, in good spirits, go off and have lunch together.

Isn&#39;t interseting how ominous a conversation sounds when you can&#39;t understand it and you are in your homeland. Yes, this is the origin of xenophobia. However, if you have bothered to get to know your co-workers, these conversations are merely interesting, not really a threat.

PS: Indian food is too vegetarian for my taste, all I like is tandoori chicken and nan. :P

hobbes i&#39;m not implying any xenophobia on any member here
just that the article j2 chose seemed a bit too gung ho in an uncool mussolini kinda way

if i ever catch up with you in one of these cities at the arse end of the earth i&#39;ll show you some excellent meaty subcontinental delights :P

Hmmmm, meaty&#33;&#33;&#33;

Sounds delicious&#33; I think that would would be great fun.

You are absolutely right, the article is very gung ho and therefore, brings out the rebel in us all.

I think J2K4, would like to join us as well, despite his rather polar views.

People are people, that is all I know.

No matter how hard I criticise, believe me, I would respect you all in person, as people seeking the truth and questioning the party line. Take care and keep the food rolling.

Respectfully,

Hobbes