Sprocket's New Home

maybe I didn't read his latest ventures due to the forum backup. However I still wonder why he abandoned the water cooling solution...

when he first posted pics of his water cooled rig I was thoroghly impressed and the results seemed nice...

I did recall something being "broken", maybe that's why he switched? :P

ya he is creative about the fans but I wonder where is he gonna put PCI upgrades like wireless PCI network card or TV tuners, things that will increase the entertainment values of his pc a lot more than status quo... :lol:

oh and VB, i dont really care if it is international board or USA boards, freedom of speech still applies. You as a Canadian should know better. Now stfu about the "stfus"

:P

Quote:

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Originally posted by james_bond_rulez@11 June 2004 - 19:31
maybe I didn't read his latest ventures due to the forum backup. However I still wonder why he abandoned the water cooling solution...

when he first posted pics of his water cooled rig I was thoroghly impressed and the results seemed nice...

I did recall something being "broken", maybe that's why he switched? :P

ya he is creative about the fans but I wonder where is he gonna put PCI upgrades like wireless PCI network card or TV tuners, things that will increase the entertainment values of his pc a lot more than status quo... :lol:

oh and VB, i dont really care if it is international board or USA boards, freedom of speech still applies. You as a Canadian should know better. Now stfu about the "stfus"

:P

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well, actually, he started going for a silent rig either at the start of THIS THREAD or before this thread...

Quote:

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Originally posted by james_bond_rulez@11 June 2004 - 09:40
clocker i'd suggest you dont waste your time on this crappy project

i've been following along on this little tweaking journey of urs and found it to be an utter waste of my reading time

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James,

Crappy as it may be, the Gateway is fast becoming my favorite of all Sprocket's cases.
Rossco is correct, the primary goal of this effort is cooling AND silence with the added complication of trying to keep the case visually stock.
I'm just learning as I go here and I enjoy airing out my pratfalls in public.
Sorry if this particular journey is not to your liking, but I can't help the weird side paths that my experimenting follows.
Maybe my next go-round will be more to your liking.

Quote:

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Manufacturers dont just build the components to "fuck up" just because customers dont know how to learn all the fancy ways to install fans in their computers. Sure, you can go to FutureShop and buy yourself a fancy computer at an overpriced cost and they expect you to come back with computer problems and they say to your face, "I am sorry, we can't take your computer back because you didn't take the nessary steps to cool down your computer"

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You're right.
They would much prefer that their units "fuck up" the day after the warrenty expires.
I have installed SpeedFan on 3 major manufacturer (Dell, Compaq and eMachines)
PCs in my neighborhood.
Not so the owners can control their fans, but so I can see the temps.
One box runs an AMD chip and the other two are Intels.
All three idle in the low 50's and who knows how hot they get under load.
Clearly they can survive these elevated temps, but I see no reason they should have to.
BTW, I would consider all three of those PCs to be much louder than Sprocket has ever been.

Lynx,

Quote:

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The ONLY conclusion is that the hd cooler is simply recirculating the same air over and over, with the airstream from the input fan to the exhaust fan totally bypassing the hd.

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The bane of all my air-cooled cases has been their utter dependence on cool incoming air. Airflow itself is useless if the flow is hot.
I would suggest that your flow is not bypassing the HDD, but is being preheated by the case ambient air creating a death spiral tempwise for your case.
Good luck in your search for a solution, I would enjoy hearing how it goes (good or bad).

Sadly, JBR will probably be bored, but you can't win 'em all.

so wut happened to your water cooler? :huh:

why did u switch to air cooling?

Quote:

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Originally posted by clocker@3 May 2004 - 04:41
Sorry...couldn't resist.
I've been tinkering with the balance of my fan speeds and I think I finally hit the "sweet spot".
http://img26.photobucket.com/albums/...cker/temps.jpg

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Nonsense !

Here Clocker was far and far away from silent rig.
First I would like to know what ambient temps were before I comment further, but these are suspect at least.

Sorry for being sceptical, but it seems a fairy tale.

Quote:

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Originally posted by FlyingDutchman+11 June 2004 - 21:09--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (FlyingDutchman &#064; 11 June 2004 - 21:09)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-clocker@3 May 2004 - 04:41
Sorry...couldn&#39;t resist.
I&#39;ve been tinkering with the balance of my fan speeds and I think I finally hit the "sweet spot".
http://img26.photobucket.com/albums/...cker/temps.jpg

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Nonsense &#33;

Here Clocker was far and far away from silent rig.
First I would like to know what ambient temps were before I comment further, but these are suspect at least.

Sorry for being sceptical, but it seems a fairy tale. [/b][/quote]
could have been loud at this time, but the point still is that clocker was going for a silent rig at this time, not that it WAS silent at that time...(not that i really remember when that was posted lol)...

Quote:

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oh and VB, i dont really care if it is international board or USA boards, freedom of speech still applies. You as a Canadian should know better. Now stfu about the "stfus"

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To be rude is not acceptable. Post you opinions in a respectful manner.

It&#39;s my role as a moderator to manage what goes on in this Hardwareworld. I would prefer to let you understand where I stand so that you can post accordingly rather than editing or deleting your posts. Or taking further action should I see the need.

@ clocker, sorry for posting off topic and also not getting back to you yet. I&#39;ve been quite busy. :(

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Originally posted by Virtualbody1234@11 June 2004 - 18:21

Quote:

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oh and VB, i dont really care if it is international board or USA boards, freedom of speech still applies. You as a Canadian should know better. Now stfu about the "stfus"

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To be rude is not acceptable. Post you opinions in a respectful manner.

It&#39;s my role as a moderator to manage what goes on in this Hardwareworld. I would prefer to let you understand where I stand so that you can post accordingly rather than editing or deleting your posts. Or taking further action should I see the need.

@ clocker, sorry for posting off topic and also not getting back to you yet. I&#39;ve been quite busy. :(

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well if you dont want me to be disrespectable then why did u lead such a bad example? :rolleyes:

I expected better from you VB :01:

This is my theory of the original airflow with only an exhaust fan.
http://server5.uploadit.org/files/lynx1153-exonly.JPG

This is what I think is happening with an added input fan.
http://server5.uploadit.org/files/lynx1153-exandin.JPG

As you can see the majority of the airflow is bypassing the hdd. In fact, since the PSU is one with only a "front to rear" air path I suspect it is also bypassing the cpu, and consequently creating additional hotspots.

Since this system is not particularly important to me (at the moment, it is only Folding) I intend try to investigate this phenomenon thoroughly. I&#39;ve got a spare temp probe, with a bit of logic I should be able to work out how to measure the temps using my multimeter (comparative should be ok anyway since I&#39;m trying to map airflow).

I fully appreciate what you are saying about hot air intake, I have been very careful to ensure that the exhaust air cannot recirculate back to the intake. This itself may be part of the problem. As far as I can tell my case is now totally sealed apart from the inlet and exhaust fans, so the other small amounts of incoming air shown in the second diagram may actually be non-existant.

I strongly suspect that some vanes to direct air around the case may have a dramatic effect. Time (and some pieces of card) will tell. :D

Multimeters work as temp probes :D ?

how? can i do this with mine too or do i need a special one&#092;special attachment???

@james_bond_rulez:

This whole issue was started by your disrespect towards clocker&#39;s efforts.

Any further posts about this subject or that is disrespectful to members here or towards me then I will put you on moderation.

End of subject.

Quote:

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Originally posted by FlyingDutchman+11 June 2004 - 19:09--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (FlyingDutchman @ 11 June 2004 - 19:09)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-clocker@3 May 2004 - 04:41
Sorry...couldn&#39;t resist.
I&#39;ve been tinkering with the balance of my fan speeds and I think I finally hit the "sweet spot".
http://img26.photobucket.com/albums/...cker/temps.jpg

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Nonsense &#33;

Here Clocker was far and far away from silent rig.
First I would like to know what ambient temps were before I comment further, but these are suspect at least.

Sorry for being sceptical, but it seems a fairy tale. [/b][/quote]
Dutchman,
If I recall correctly,on that date in early May it was probably fairly cool.
You will also note that the 4 hour period shown on that log was early in the morning.

Whence the skepticism?
I did not claim in that post (or that thread either) that Sprocket was silent at that time...I would characterize her as "quiet", however.
Noise is a very subjective matter and we have no standard by which to compare.

If you are suggesting that I doctored the log file, either post production ( say, with Photoshop) or pre-reading ( by tweaking the correction factors in MBM), then I can assure that I have/will never do such a thing.
What would be the point?

That reading was taken when I still ran my Asus A7N8x-Deluxe board, and I have since read that Asus might have a tendency to underreport temps.
This is possible, but I certainly did nothing to alter the figures I was getting.

Quote:

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Originally posted by clocker@12 June 2004 - 05:11
Dutchman,
....
Whence the skepticism?
I did not claim in that post (or that thread either) that Sprocket was silent at that time...I would characterize her as "quiet", however.
Noise is a very subjective matter and we have no standard by which to compare.

If you are suggesting that I doctored the log file, either post production ( say, with Photoshop) or pre-reading ( by tweaking the correction factors in MBM), then I can assure that I have/will never do such a thing.
What would be the point?

That reading was taken when I still ran my Asus A7N8x-Deluxe board, and I have since read that Asus might have a tendency to underreport temps.
This is possible, but I certainly did nothing to alter the figures I was getting.

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I didn&#39;t want to suggest you doctored those readings.

But I do think those readings are far from the truth.

Here we have an article where people tried to find the truth on temperature-readings from the CPU-diode.
Conclusion: On that board/BIOS the software reported 5° to 8° too low.

I think the differential is even greater, and here is why:

Energy flows from a high level to a lower level ----&#62; The heatsink needs to be cooler than the CPU otherwise the heat can&#39;t flow to the heatsink. From my own observations I estimate this differential to be 2° to 3° C.
In the article I linked they took readings from the heatsink, so you need to add these 2-3° to the differential they found.
So, using these numbers the temps in your table were 7° to 11° too low.

Only when we have a good estimate of what reality looks like, we can recognize bogus readings. Especially you, and I should try to present the truth here, as many members don&#39;t question what you write. (Clocker knows)

Peace. :)

Edit: changed "high" to "low" :unsure:

Dutchman,
I am familiar with the article you cite ( in fact, it is the very one I was referring to above) and am struggling with trying to assess my temps as we speak.

I admit that my Asus readings might have been low, just as I believe that my current Abit temps are artificially high.

Unfortunately, I have no real scientific method of gathering accurate reads.
I have installed temp sensors on my chip ( as close to the core as I could) and also one in the fins of my heatsink and am looking to acquire hardware based readings instead of software derived ones.
There seems to be too much room for error using on-board sensor readings*.

Personally I have always regarded the temp data as relative anyway...I have stated in the past and still believe that my data is useful not so much to claim any given result, but rather to describe the difference between different cooling solutions. Actual temperatures are irrelevant ( especially given the contraversial nature of their veracity), what matters to me is did a given mod help or hinder my cooling.

I suppose that, as with everything else on the internet, a healthy dose of skepticism is called for here...I try to pre-apply it to my posts as deception has never been my goal, but I continue to stand behind the essential verity of my results.



* I am reminded of a case involving the early Datsun 240Zs here.
The oil pressure guage in the first two model years read from 0 to 100 psi with a mark in the middle of the scale. Most people thought that this center mark indicated the proper running oil pressure when in fact it did not. Datsun was getting many customer complaints of "low oil pressure" in new cars.
Their solution?
Replace the guage with one that had no mark on it.

I wonder if the motherboard manufacturers tweak their sensors to comfort consumers instead of reflecting the ugly reality that our PCs generally run hotter than hell and not much can be done about it....

Quote:

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Originally posted by clocker@12 June 2004 - 10:23
I wonder if the motherboard manufacturers tweak their sensors to comfort consumers instead of reflecting the ugly reality that our PCs generally run hotter than hell and not much can be done about it....

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i thought that too, but feel your heatsync...it isn&#39;t hot...can&#39;t be in the 50&#39;s or whatever...

That may be true Ross, if you are willing to assume that the heatsink ( you really should get that spelling right...your "Canadian spelling" explanation just doesn&#39;t cut it <_< ) is really doing it&#39;s job.
Either the temp IS lower than reported OR the interface between the chip and sink sucks and the poor CPU is frying while the HS sits there cool as a cucumber.

Quote:

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Originally posted by clocker@12 June 2004 - 10:40
That may be true Ross, if you are willing to assume that the heatsink ( you really should get that spelling right...your "Canadian spelling" explanation just doesn&#39;t cut it <_< ) is really doing it&#39;s job.
Either the temp IS lower than reported OR the interface between the chip and sink sucks and the poor CPU is frying while the HS sits there cool as a cucumber.

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:lol: at the cumumber , :lol: at the heatsink&#092;heatsync.

it isn&#39;t canadian spelling, it is just how i choose to spell it :P

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Originally posted by ROSSCO_2004+12 June 2004 - 11:44--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (ROSSCO_2004 @ 12 June 2004 - 11:44)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-clocker@12 June 2004 - 10:40
That may be true Ross, if you are willing to assume that the heatsink ( you really should get that spelling right...your "Canadian spelling" explanation just doesn&#39;t cut it <_< ) is really doing it&#39;s job.
Either the temp IS lower than reported OR the interface between the chip and sink sucks and the poor CPU is frying while the HS sits there cool as a cucumber.

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:lol: at the cumumber , :lol: at the heatsink&#092;heatsync.

it isn&#39;t canadian spelling, it is just how i choose to spell it :P [/b][/quote]
go back to grade 1 <_<














haha payback that&#39;s all... :lol:

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Originally posted by ROSSCO_2004@12 June 2004 - 08:44


it isn&#39;t canadian spelling, it is just how i choose to spell it :P

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Oh, alright then.

Just be aware that, everytime you do that, I am ( forcably) reminded of a infamous (now defunct, fortunately) boy band for some reason.

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Originally posted by clocker+12 June 2004 - 10:53--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (clocker @ 12 June 2004 - 10:53)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-ROSSCO_2004@12 June 2004 - 08:44


it isn&#39;t canadian spelling, it is just how i choose to spell it :P

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Oh, alright then.

Just be aware that, everytime you do that, I am ( forcably) reminded of a infamous (now defunct, fortunately) boy band for some reason. [/b][/quote]
:ph34r: never again...

heatink, heatsink, heatsynk, shit, heatsink...:)

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Originally posted by ROSSCO_2004@12 June 2004 - 04:34
Multimeters work as temp probes :D ?

how? can i do this with mine too or do i need a special one&#092;special attachment???

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You simply get 3 different resistance readings across the probe for approximately known temps, then you draw a graph with a line (curve if necessary) joining these points. After that you simply measure the resistance and read off the corresponding temp from the graph.

Don&#39;t forget, I&#39;m interested in comparative differences anyway, accurate temps aren&#39;t important. What I need to know is when I get the best results, not what that result is.

It&#39;s the same with the motherboard question, does the absolute temp matter (within reason) as long as you know that any cooling changes you are making are improving the situation, or overclocking changes are not about to cause chip failure.

BTW, the article suggests that the software could be modified to give a more accurate representation of the true temp. In practice the sensor is probably common across many motherboards, so software such as MBM5 has no choice but to interpret the reading from the sensor in the same way for all boards. A software solution is impractical.

However, the board provides a reference voltage to the sensor. Varying this reference voltage changes the reading provided by the sensor so it is VERY easy for the board maker to alter the temps shown by their board.

I know clocker got his ASUS board some time before I got mine, and his temps on that board have been consistently much lower than mine. It could be that ASUS have already addressed the under-reading problem. It would not make sense for them to knowingly under-read the temp since it would screw up their vaunted A.C.O.P system. Perhaps the sensor chip on that board was new to them, and on early boards they didn&#39;t realise it needed a different reference.

sounds hard :blink:

Well, speaking of voltages....
Yesterday, among many other changes, I flashed my BIOS to a new, super overclockable version highly touted on the OC.com forum.
Surprisingly, it worked as advertised. Sprocket reached gigaheights she&#39;s never seen before.
240x 10, for a stable 2.4 GHz.
This required raising the vCore to 1.8v, up from the stock 1.65v.
Naturally, this lead to higher CPU temps.

( Just for reference, I have still not figured out the temps on this board. MBM5 says that it will access the WinBond diode on chip, but that sensor won&#39;t display on any of my options menus so all I can read is the socket thermistor, which agrees precisely with the hardware sensor I have installed. So all my reported temps will be from the socket, NOT the more desirable on-chip diode, until I can get this straightened out...)

Anyway, I figured that perhaps a new tack was called for...i.e. undervolting.
First I had to decide on the acceptable performance hit I was willing to take.
My T-bred 2600+ runs stock at 166x12.5, 2.075GHz.
Benchmarks have shown big improvements in memory by bumping the FSB up to a minimum of 200MHz, so I decided that I would reset my specs to 200x11 and see how low I could undervolt whilst maintaining stability at that speed.

Numerous tests later, the magic voltage number appears to be 1.55v.
Which hardly seems like anything really...the drop of 1/10 of a volt.
This translated into a temperature drop of 4c however.
Perhaps even more actually, as the room ambient has risen as the day progressed.
Case ambient ( which really should be called motherboard ambient as the sensor is on there somewhere) has jumped from 22c to 28c with the afternoon sun shining in. My CPU temps have dropped however, from 40c to 36c.
Later tonight or early tomorrow morning I should be able to replicate my case temp of 22c and then a more accurate assessment of the undervolting effect will be possible.

Chasing cooler CPU temps with hardware ( fans, ducts, etc) certainly helps, but it also appears that voltage adjustments can yield significant results also.
The combination of both approaches seems to be the way to go....

Yep, by undervolting from 1.475 Volts to 1.3 Volts I got a reduction in CPU-temps of 9° :blink:
CPU went from 57° to 48°

I can&#39;t overclock at 1.3 Volts anymore though :rolleyes:

i can&#39;t wait to upgrade my components then ill actually participate in these threads, other than my smartass sarcastic coments

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Originally posted by Duffman3@13 June 2004 - 18:54
i can&#39;t wait to upgrade my components then ill actually participate in these threads, other than my smartass sarcastic coments

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:lol: What&#39;s with your avatar. It just says 404 not found, whatever. is that your avatar or is it a problem with the host? lol. I think i remember seeing you have that avatar for a few months now, and never got around to asking...

hehe, it was the seen where homer puts is face against the glass on the air plane going "save me jeebus" but i think it got take off image dump for no reason

Quote:

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Originally posted by Duffman3@13 June 2004 - 19:00
hehe, it was the seen where homer puts is face against the glass on the air plane going "save me jeebus" but i think it got take off image dump for no reason

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fix it :rolleyes:

clocker, what is ther version of bios you upgraded to called??

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Originally posted by ROSSCO_2004+13 June 2004 - 19:01--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (ROSSCO_2004 &#064; 13 June 2004 - 19:01)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Duffman3@13 June 2004 - 19:00
hehe, it was the seen where homer puts is face against the glass on the air plane going "save me jeebus" but i think it got take off image dump for no reason

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fix it :rolleyes: [/b][/quote]
it keeps saying that my image type is not allowed

*edit* i got it now

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Originally posted by Duffman3+13 June 2004 - 19:09--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Duffman3 &#064; 13 June 2004 - 19:09)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Quote:

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Originally posted by ROSSCO_2004@13 June 2004 - 19:01
<!--QuoteBegin-Duffman3

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Quote:

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@13 June 2004 - 19:00
hehe, it was the seen where homer puts is face against the glass on the air plane going "save me jeebus" but i think it got take off image dump for no reason

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fix it :rolleyes:

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it keeps saying that my image type is not allowed [/b][/quote]
oh, maybe u aren&#39;t allowed to use gifs on that site anymore...

try photobucket.com


edit: i see you got a new one, good work :)

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Originally posted by clocker@13 June 2004 - 17:43
240x 10, for a stable 2.4 GHz.

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what memory are you using to get a FSB of 240? j/w and sounds good so far. cant wait to see pics&#33;

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Originally posted by pc&#045;gamer&#045;dude+13 June 2004 - 19:12--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (pc-gamer-dude @ 13 June 2004 - 19:12)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-clocker@13 June 2004 - 17:43
240x 10, for a stable 2.4 GHz.

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what memory are you using to get a FSB of 240? j/w and sounds good so far. cant wait to see pics&#33; [/b][/quote]
yeah get your camera back already&#33;

OK....
Camera will be back next Friday sometime.
Memory is Mushkin PC 3200 Level one ( couldn&#39;t afford the really good stuff...).

I can&#39;t go lower on the vCore and maintain this level of chip speed.
She wil actually boot into Windows at 1.5v, but I get random reboots with nonsense error messages.
Upping the voltage brings her back to life just fine.

K, this is the BIOS that I&#39;m using.
Enjoy.

Shameless bump to make a small announcement.
It looks like a plan I&#39;ve been hatching might just come to fruition in the next week or so.
It will be a first for HardwareWorld.

Keep your eye&#39;s peeled for the unveiling of my grandiose plan.

That is all.
As you were.

Quote:

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Originally posted by clocker@14 June 2004 - 23:28
As you were.

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:lol:

Quote:

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Originally posted by clocker@14 June 2004 - 18:28
Shameless bump to make a small announcement.
It looks like a plan I&#39;ve been hatching might just come to fruition in the next week or so.
It will be a first for HardwareWorld.

Keep your eye&#39;s peeled for the unveiling of my grandiose plan.

That is all.
As you were.

---

:o What could it be :unsure:

We&#39;ve gotta get some sort of "I can&#39;t wait" smiley ;)

Clocker, those bios did nothing for me, in fact made my overclock worse rather then better&#33; :lol:
Went back to my old bios...
Maybe you just got lucky&#33; :lol:

Quote:

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Originally posted by kaiweiler@14 June 2004 - 20:56
Clocker, those bios did nothing for me, in fact made my overclock worse rather then better&#33;&nbsp; :lol:
Went back to my old bios...
Maybe you just got lucky&#33;&nbsp; :lol:

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Just be glad you were able to get it back to the old BIOS ;)

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Originally posted by ROSSCO_2004+14 June 2004 - 21:58--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (ROSSCO_2004 @ 14 June 2004 - 21:58)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-kaiweiler@14 June 2004 - 20:56
Clocker, those bios did nothing for me, in fact made my overclock worse rather then better&#33; :lol:
Went back to my old bios...
Maybe you just got lucky&#33; :lol:

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Just be glad you were able to get it back to the old BIOS ;) [/b][/quote]
Any smart guy with some common sense saves a copy of their old bios before flashing&#33; :rolleyes:
and i don&#39;t think you jsut got lucky clocker, i jsut read on the other forums about those bios, seems maybe i&#39;ve just gotten unlucky
I&#39;ll maybe try it again
I know it&#39;s my ram that&#39;s holding me back :frusty: