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Re: forgetting your roots
Quote:
Originally Posted by vidcc
Busy get off the spanish language. IT IS JUST AN EXAMPLE
on the second post about them not having to learn English i will say again that schools will teach both so in a generation nearly the whole country would speak BOTH...not one or the other. there would not be spanish only school or english only schools
Why should I get off the Spanish language if it is just an example.
Seems like a damn good one since IT ACTUALLY APPLIES HERE.
Schools teach what the student elects to learn. For example I took 3 years of French in high school because that's what I picked. Some learned Spanish, some German.
You haven't given a reason why we should go dual language. Saying that we may get left behind is a crap reason. There are countries that have dual official languages and neither are widely used in the global marketplace.
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Re: forgetting your roots
Quote:
Originally Posted by vidcc
Busy get off the spanish language. IT IS JUST AN EXAMPLE
on the second post about them not having to learn English i will say again that schools will teach both so in a generation nearly the whole country would speak BOTH...not one or the other. there would not be spanish only school or english only schools
And this a benefit how?
Being multilingual is a luxury we can indulge when our students can compete in science, math and other technical areas.
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Re: forgetting your roots
Quote:
Originally Posted by clocker
And this a benefit how?
Being multilingual is a luxury we can indulge when our students can compete in science, math and other technical areas.
Good point.
I liked French aiiight and everything but I loved Calculus in comparison. Going far French might have got me a good job as a translator.
However if was good at both, I could have been a French mathmetician...uh sort of.
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Re: forgetting your roots
Quote:
Originally Posted by clocker
And this a benefit how?
Being multilingual is a luxury we can indulge when our students can compete in science, math and other technical areas.
How is it a hindrance?
As to education standards should we reduce ourselves to the lowest denominator? Our education system could be improved that goes without saying. My 17 year old is in the gifted program and he still finds he has time to fill during the day. Surely the idea would be to make school more challenging to pupils not easier.
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Re: forgetting your roots
Quote:
Originally Posted by vidcc
How is it a hindrance?
As to education standards should we reduce ourselves to the lowest denominator? Our education system could be improved that goes without saying. My 17 year old is in the gifted program and he still finds he has time to fill during the day. Surely the idea would be to make school more challenging to pupils not easier.
Seems like we have multilinguals without having a second official language though don't we? :huh:
I too was in gifted programs since elementary school yet played sports, made music blahblahblah. Even when I was in a Science and Technology high school we had to take more years of foreign language than "the rest".
You still have not put forth a rationale behind a second official language here.
I get the point that being multilingual begets a more well rounded individual.
I have layed out a focus of study that involves science, mathematics, language and music because that's what made me more well rounded.
However, a second official language doesn't really accomplish this. First there is the question..What language?
It's almost like me having to learn to play official musical instrument. I learned 4 because of what I was interested in. What if I was forced to learn the sitar?
I would be popular in...India. :blink:
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Re: forgetting your roots
Quote:
Originally Posted by Busyman
You still have not put forth a rationale behind a second official language here.
Because you don't agree with it...that doesn't mean I haven't.
You still haven't put forward a reason why it would be a hindrance. All you've said is people won't learn something unless they have to.
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Re: forgetting your roots
Quote:
Originally Posted by vidcc
Because you don't agree with it...that doesn't mean I haven't.
You still haven't put forward a reason why it would be a hindrance. All you've said is people won't learn something unless they have to.
Show me where I've said that. :huh:
And no you haven't.
What language and why? (since Spanish was just an example)
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Re: forgetting your roots
Quote:
Originally Posted by vidcc
How is it a hindrance?
As to education standards should we reduce ourselves to the lowest denominator? Our education system could be improved that goes without saying. My 17 year old is in the gifted program and he still finds he has time to fill during the day. Surely the idea would be to make school more challenging to pupils not easier.
As far as the industrial nations go Vid, the US already is the lowest common demoninator.
Having failed to adequately keep pace in the Three R's, you propose that we can afford to become more well rounded by adding language requirements?
Don't get me wrong, I took six years of Latin (Gaulia est divisa in tres partes...or something like that) and it was a tremendous benefit to my appreciation of and (somewhat debatable) grasp of English, but I was a product of an earlier system which also demanded mastery of more pedestrian (read:useful) skills.
That system is long gone, replaced ( for various reasons- I know J2 has some definite thoughts about that) by a carebear, feel-good, pamper 'em and pass 'em joke.
After that is fixed, by all means bring on the language requirements.
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Re: forgetting your roots
Quote:
Originally Posted by clocker
As far as the industrial nations go Vid, the US already is the lowest common demoninator.
I disagree.
We fail up through high-school but easily surpass in college (even the Japanese).
That's why everyone (including Middle Easterns) wants to send their kids to college here.
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Re: forgetting your roots
How is that possible?
The elite Indian students consider US colleges as fallback options and I suspect that Middle East parents like their kids to come here to sow their wild oats without fear of retribution from Islamic law.
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Re: forgetting your roots
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Originally Posted by clocker
How is that possible?
The elite Indian students consider US colleges as fallback options and I suspect that Middle East parents like their kids to come here to sow their wild oats without fear of retribution from Islamic law.
This is something I've looked upon for years.
I'm not sure about Indian students but Middle Eastern parents that hate us even want to send their kids here.
I remember when asked on 60 minutes why they would send their kids here when there is such disdain for America, the answer was, "Why should I not give my children the best education possible.
In the Japanese situation, what happens is those children that go to school ALL THE TIME are turned loose. They get drunk and have stress blow-outs.
Their studies hit the stinker in comparison to us.
Mind you I did not know of the soiling of oats thingie with Middle Eastern kids.
Up to college is where we suck the fat one.
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Re: forgetting your roots
Kids from the world over do indeed come to the States for their education, however they also go to the European universities. There are finite places and if one wished certain specific courses the places are even more limited. I realise it's all part of the "I live in the USA the greatest nation on earth" doctrine but I don't think that one could say the US has the best as that would be subjective, they are good certainly.
@ clocker
We all know that Education needs a good overhaul, however as one that has children using the system I would like to suggest that failings are not all the schools fault and it isn't always because the children are "dumb". IMO a good deal of progress could be made without changing a thing in the curriculum if only parents instilled disipline in their children.
Perhaps part of the reason I take a low view of the "why bother I won't need it" attitude is because I see kids failing school because of it. This is not helped if the parents have the same attitude.
My 17 year old is doing well at school, I wish the school would push him harder, but that's another side to what I am saying..... He is however a teenager and has that teenage mentality where he looks for the easiest route and if we didn't keep on his case I have no doubt he would fall behind at school
So we have undisciplined and lazy children as a big part of the problem and for that we have only ourselves to blame.
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Re: forgetting your roots
Quote:
Originally Posted by vidcc
Kids from the world over do indeed come to the States for their education, however they also go to the European universities. There are finite places and if one wished certain specific courses the places are even more limited. I realise it's all part of the "I live in the USA the greatest nation on earth" doctrine but I don't think that one could say the US has the best as that would be subjective, they are good certainly.
@ clocker
We all know that Education needs a good overhaul, however as one that has children using the system I would like to suggest that failings are not all the schools fault and it isn't always because the children are "dumb". IMO a good deal of progress could be made without changing a thing in the curriculum if only parents instilled disipline in their children.
Perhaps part of the reason I take a low view of the "why bother I won't need it" attitude is because I see kids failing school because of it. This is not helped if the parents have the same attitude.
My 17 year old is doing well at school, I wish the school would push him harder, but that's another side to what I am saying..... He is however a teenager and has that teenage mentality where he looks for the easiest route and if we didn't keep on his case I have no doubt he would fall behind at school
So we have undisciplined and lazy children as a big part of the problem and for that we have only ourselves to blame.
Good post, however, you think that a second official language is one of the answers.
Again what language and why?
We have many other avenues such as installing more years of language study for graduation yet honing in one other language seems to be your answer. :huh:
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Re: forgetting your roots
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Originally Posted by Busyman
Good post, however, you think that a second official language is one of the answers.
Again what language and why?
We have many other avenues such as installing more years of language study for graduation yet honing in one other language seems to be your answer. :huh:
Quote:
Originally Posted by vidcc
Firstly Spanish is just the one used in the example, however it is probably the one to go for because of the amount that already speak it.
Secondly I am not arguing that we should have a second official language at this time in history. As it stands the there wouldn't be anywhere near enough people that speak a different language other than English...but who knows about 50-100 years from now... English may still be the official language but it might be the lesser used.....
I am arguing that it would be beneficial and not a hindrance for any country to have the ability to communicate in more than one tongue.
To me the idea of a nation being bilingual is that it's people speak both....
bilingual
1.
1. Using or able to use two languages, especially with equal or nearly equal fluency.
2. Using two languages in some proportion in order to facilitate learning by students who have a native proficiency in one language and are acquiring proficiency in the other: bilingual training; bilingual education.
2. Of, relating to, or expressed in two languages: a bilingual dictionary.
This being the lazy And arrogant USA I would say that IF it ever happened it would be more likely to be Spanish because of the population proportions. This may not be ideal as a competitive edge on the world market in the future but then that would be because of our own self indulgent attitude.
Quote:
Originally Posted by busyman
Again what language and why?
one would need to guess where the most beneficial nation to the US workforce would be and to do that we need to look at the future not the present. If i had the indisputable answer i could give it.
Again i repeat i am not saying we should have a second official language i am saying it could be used to our advantage and it would not be a hinderance.
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Re: forgetting your roots
Quote:
Originally Posted by vidcc
Again i repeat i am not saying we should have a second official language i am saying it could be used to our advantage and it would not be a hinderance.
Mmmk. :huh:
What could be used to our advantage?
Having an official second language or simply studying another language?
Simply having more knowledge is good goes without saying.
I can change the brakes on my car. That's good.
Me knowing French is pretty good too....I guess, although I almost never use it. :huh: Is it advantagous? No.
A hindrance?
In the scheme of things, maybe so since I could have learned Spanish instead to communicate better with economic refugees. :dry:
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Re: forgetting your roots
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Originally Posted by Busyman
Mmmk. :huh:
What could be used to our advantage?
Having an official second language or simply studying another language?
Both.
you mentioned learning French..... do you remember much? I bet if you could continue to use it regularly it would be as easy as English to you. I did Latin French and German at school, I made use of the last two to a degree but lack of use is very similar to the effect sitting on ones butt all day has on ones muscles. Having an official second language would enhance the study through use. You yourself said we only use what we have to.
Quote:
Originally Posted by busyman
Me knowing French is pretty good too....I guess, although I almost never use it. :huh: Is it advantagous? No.
So you chose a course in life that doesn't use it, but lets say your company has a position in France, a position that you would like and would mean a great step up....you must agree that your particular company could possibly have something like that.... Do you think that given equal technical skills your work colleague that doesn't have a word of French would be more or less likely to get the job?
Quote:
Originally Posted by busyman
A hindrance?
In the scheme of things, maybe so since I could have learned Spanish instead to communicate better with economic refugees. :dry:
This makes your objections look like pure resentment which is an excuse along the lines of cutting your nose to spite your face....
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Re: forgetting your roots
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Originally Posted by vidcc
You yourself said we only use what we have to.
Again...show where I've said that. :huh:
Regarding the job market, you are stating something so painfully obvious that it goes without saying (even though I have already said it).
I don't have an issue with Hispanics. I have an issue with my country kissing illegal's ass while room for elbows is fast disappearing here.
Language doesn't need to be propped up as in Spanish's case. English sure wasn't. It just so happens that the people that made inroads in science, mathematics, and ultimately the marketplace spoke English.
The other chips fell in line.
Your blanket statement that a second official language is a benefit is too broad to even have a point.
When asked what language and why? There is no answer.
It looks good on paper but application is a motherfuker.
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Re: forgetting your roots
Quote:
Originally Posted by Busyman
Again...show where I've said that. :huh:
Quote:
Originally Posted by busyman
Very good point. By having another official language (Spanish) you essentially say to the folks that only speak Spanish that there is no need to learn English.
Quote:
Originally Posted by busyman
Same here. If they don't have to learn it well......
You've also been asking why you need to learn another language when all the other nations are learning english.
Quote:
Your blanket statement that a second official language is a benefit is too broad to even have a point.
When asked what language and why? There is no answer.
The why has been answered, you just don't want to accept it...the which language depends on a whole range of things and would be different for each nation. One has to maximise one abilities not reduce them.
English is used by many nations to deal with english speaking nations, but it's not the only language used. The more langauges one has the wider the field of communication.
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Re: forgetting your roots
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Originally Posted by vidcc
You've also been asking why you need to learn another language when all the other nations are learning english.
The why has been answered, you just don't want to accept it...the which language depends on a whole range of things and would be different for each nation. One has to maximise one abilities not reduce them.
English is used by many nations to deal with english speaking nations, but it's not the only language used. The more langauges one has the wider the field of communication.
Damn dude. Your quotes of me are clearly regarding SPANISH SPEAKING IMMIGRANTS FFS!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: (notice the use of "they" and "to the folks that only speak Spanish" not the word "we")
As to the why....
What you've put forth is a rationale behind simply learning other languages. That's a no-brainer.
Focusing on a specific language has not been adressed.
I like the approach of focusing on whatever language the individual sees fit like when I was in school.
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Re: forgetting your roots
So we should make Chinese a second official language because it might help those in the business world get an advantage because they will be using Chinese on a daily basis?
That really seems like a flimsy logic for creating a second language. What if China fizzles and we should have been learning German.
Money will provide the incentive to speak whatever language the market demands. We don't have to sit around and anticipate who will be the "hot commodity" in the future.
Necessity is the mother of invention. Maybe we should make sign language our official second language just in case we all go deaf, just in case.
There is a great difference to me between, "it is a good thing to know more than one language" and the official selection of a language by the government so that people might have an edge in the international market.
Why doesn't the government train us all to make radios out of coconuts just in case we are shipwrecked. How could this possibly hurt us?
It probably wouldn't, unless you consider time and money, but it is also pointless and not the role of the government.
As I pointed out before, heterogeneous populations like India and China have followed our one language lead by creating a common language for the country so that the people can travel from place to place and communicate. Maybe in your mind you think that everyone should learn ALL the local dialects instead of the local dialects learning a common tongue? What would it hurt. It is not that something would hurt, but it would be highly inefficient and largely pointless.
It is akin to the world adopting Esperanto or some "official global language". I would have no problem adding that to our schools because it would be a powerful tool used the world over. Like a skeleton key to the globe.
That would make sense and everyone who has ever traveled would have a large incentive to at least be functional in it. There are so many languages out there, it is mere speculation which ones we might need or use. No need to pointless train us all in some selected language when it will probably be a complete waste of time and effort. Let individuals develop their individual language skills as far as their intellectual and monetary interests take them.
One country, one language-valuable
One world, one language- priceless
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Re: forgetting your roots
China has a bunch of Languages, like Cantonese, and Mandarin, it's just the writing that's universal there. :huh:
But I think Cantonese (or is it Mandarin) is still the biggest language in the world.
I'm not sure India has just the one language either, I know there are smaller groups with their own language, and the social gaps are huge, so certain groups who officially speak the same language can probably hardly communicate.
But one world-one language sure sounds good to me.
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Re: forgetting your roots
Quote:
Originally Posted by SnnY
But one world-one language sure sounds good to me.
I just hope they dont make it English. I am too old to learn another language. :blink:
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Re: forgetting your roots
I have stated my case and haven't read anything new. Apart from it being nice if we all spoke just one language, but then we don't even speak the same English.
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Re: forgetting your roots
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Originally Posted by vidcc
I have stated my case and haven't read anything new. Apart from it being nice if we all spoke just one language, but then we don't even speak the same English.
Whae disnae talk the same English? Whit ur ye talkin' aboot? :blink:
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Re: forgetting your roots
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Originally Posted by vidcc
I have stated my case and haven't read anything new. Apart from it being nice if we all spoke just one language, but then we don't even speak the same English.
Guess we could all use sign language instead :rolleyes:
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Re: forgetting your roots
heya bussyman how you going?
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Re: forgetting your roots
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Originally Posted by vidcc
I have stated my case and haven't read anything new. Apart from it being nice if we all spoke just one language, but then we don't even speak the same English.
So for those of us who missed it, why exactly should the government be involved in promoting an official second language? Why is one language not sufficient from a societal communication stand point?
Which language and for what reason?
I would promote learning sign language over any spoken tongue as it would allow ALL Americans to move freely in our land and to be able to fully communicate.
Your mantra of "what would it hurt?" is not the point at all. Learning to build a radio out of a coconut wouldn't hurt anyone either.
Vidcc, I must say know you are wrong and are just arguing a rather shaky logic.
When Clocker and Hobbes agree, that's no big deal. But when Clocker, Hobbes, J2, Busyman and the rest of the board are in lock step, then this is the sign of the apocolypse.
I haven't seen a single poster support your views.
Although you want to call us arrogant, myopic people afraid of an attack on our language, that is complete hogwash.
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Re: forgetting your roots
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Originally Posted by RPerry
Guess we could all use sign language instead :rolleyes:
Eddie Izzard had a great sign for humans in the sketch about the signing experiments with monkeys in the 70s.
I'm sure Everose (forgive me if i am wrong) said that there is more than one sign language.
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Re: forgetting your roots
Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbes
So for those of us who missed it, why exactly should the government be involved in promoting an official second language? Why is one language not sufficient from a societal communication stand point?
I repeat.
I have not been saying we SHOULD have two langauges...I have been saying that it could be beneficial. I have been saying that it wouldn't hinder us.
Don't give me any crap about the weight of opinion when it is just opinion. It doesn't give any weight to your view at all because we are talking opinion not facts. At one point in time everyone was of the opinion that Saddam had WMD were they right? before that there was the opinion that the world was flat.
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Re: forgetting your roots
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Originally Posted by vidcc
I repeat.
I have not been saying we SHOULD have two langauges...I have been saying that it could be beneficial. I have been saying that it wouldn't hinder us.
Don't give me any crap about the weight of opinion when it is just opinion. It doesn't give any weight to your view at all because we are talking opinion not facts. At one point in time everyone was of the opinion that Saddam had WMD were they right? before that there was the opinion that the world was flat.
It's cool man.
It could be beneficial if we had 2 languages.
It could be beneficial if we had 3 languages.
It could be beneficial if we had 4 languages.
It could be beneficial if we had 5 languages.
Totally agree.
It could be beneficial if we drove on left side of the road.
It could be beneficial if we drill more in Alaska
It could be bene..........
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Re: forgetting your roots
Quote:
Originally Posted by vidcc
I repeat.
I have not been saying we SHOULD have two langauges...I have been saying that it could be beneficial. I have been saying that it wouldn't hinder us.
Don't give me any crap about the weight of opinion when it is just opinion. It doesn't give any weight to your view at all because we are talking opinion not facts. At one point in time everyone was of the opinion that Saddam had WMD were they right? before that there was the opinion that the world was flat.
Yeah and so could be learning to build a radio from a coconut, but that is not the role of our government.
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Re: forgetting your roots
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Originally Posted by Busyman
It's cool man.
It could be beneficial if we had 2 languages.
It could be beneficial if we had 3 languages.
It could be beneficial if we had 4 languages.
It could be beneficial if we had 5 languages.
Totally agree.
It could be beneficial if we drove on left side of the road.
It could be beneficial if we drill more in Alaska
It could be bene..........
So what's your point?
i started my point because of this
Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbes
Actually the state of New Mexico is doing it's citizen no favors with the dual official languages. It should be pushing them to learn English because here in San Antonio, not speaking English locks you into being that guy that cuts my grass and takes out my trash. It locks you in to the lowest socio-economic class.
The state is encouraging biligualism, it is encouraging spanish speaking immigrants to learn English and it is teaching the children of spanish speaking immigrants to speak english. It is also teaching where possible english students to learn spanish. It is encouraging BOTH.
Only official forms are in both languages. Everything else is in English.
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Re: forgetting your roots
Quote:
Originally Posted by vidcc
So what's your point?
i started my point because of this
The state is encouraging biligualism, it is encouraging spanish speaking immigrants to learn English and it is teaching the children of spanish speaking immigrants to speak english. It is also teaching where possible english students to learn spanish. It is encouraging BOTH.
Only official forms are in both languages. Everything else is in English.
My point is that it could be beneficial. That's all.
It seems when I said that learning Spanish is beneficial because it helps me communicate with economic refugees you said it was resentful.
I wonder why San Antonio is encouraging bilingualism?
