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The US was wrong not to join WW2 in 1939 when the rest of the free world stood up to Hitler. But selling arms to both sides was much more profitable wasn't it?
If the US wants to act preemptively, as you put it, they should say so, not make up a bunch of lies.
:)
Sometimes the only way to advance is under cover of dark. Or in this case, a smoke screen ;)
Either way, the dirty work is done. Isn't it time for everyone else to take some responsibility and admit it was in the worlds best interest?
If you thought communist Russia was scary, just imagine nuclear fundamentalists. Or worse.
Well you don' have to imagine too hard, several of Iraq's neighbors are there now.
Trashing your allies on a daily basis really isn't a good idea even if you don't directly have to deal with the consequences later. There may come a day.....
How do you make the connection between Iraq and nuclear terrorists?
The US went into Iraq because they are about to be kicked out of Saudi Arabia. This incursion was about oil.
If you were to make a list of the world's most dangerous countries, Iraq would not be at the top of the list. They threatened no-one. Why was the US in such a rush to go in when there were weapons inspectors in there? Was it because they knew they would find no WMD?
In the meantime, the most dangerous country in the world, North Korea, has developed nuclear weapons, and has threatened to use them. But just a minute, they've got an army, navy and air force haven't they? Unlike Iraq.
The US, Australia and UK got themselves into this mess, you get yourselves out of it.
:)
...the second most dangerous country in the world I would say. :PQuote:
Originally posted by Billy_Dean@18 November 2003 - 09:16
In the meantime, the most dangerous country in the world, North Korea, has developed nuclear weapons, and has threatened to use them. But just a minute, they've got an army, navy and air force haven't they? Unlike Iraq.
...the second most dangerous country in the world I would say. :P [/b][/quote]Quote:
Originally posted by barbarossa+18 November 2003 - 20:36--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (barbarossa @ 18 November 2003 - 20:36)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Billy_Dean@18 November 2003 - 09:16
In the meantime, the most dangerous country in the world, North Korea, has developed nuclear weapons, and has threatened to use them. But just a minute, they've got an army, navy and air force haven't they? Unlike Iraq.
I stand corrected. ;)
:)
Their geographical position and possible nuclear capability are a much more important factor than their measly army, navy and air force.Quote:
Originally posted by Billy_Dean@18 November 2003 - 09:16
But just a minute, [N. Korea] they've got an army, navy and air force haven't they?
This was in the Sunday Mirror (a "news"paper over here). Some of this stuff (if true) is quite literally Un-Be-Lievable. :unsure: :blink:Quote:
STATE OF PARANOIA Nov 16 2003
By Chris Mclaughlin And Stephen Martin
THEY'RE changing the guard at Buckingham Palace...but instead of bearskins, ceremonial swords and red jackets, this lot will be wearing grey suits with suspicious bulges under their arms and talking into their cuff-links.
When the George Bush circus rolls into town this week, London will have seen nothing like it.
Whole streets will be blocked off for the paranoid President and his incredible entourage - and thousands of motorists left fuming in the capital's biggest security operation ever. And, not content with treating Britain like the 51st State of the Union, ultra-cautious American security chiefs are even set to take over the Houses of Parliament. The incredible security operation for the four-day State visit is costing British taxpayers more than £4million - while the US is forking out a mind-boggling £15million for it.
And the Americans are being given everything they've asked for as Bush becomes the first US President to be given a State visit to the UK since Woodrow Wilson after World War I in 1918.
Scotland Yard has cancelled all police leave and the 700 American secret service spooks over here with Mr Bush have even been told they can shoot on sight at the slightest danger and claim diplomatic immunity from prosecution if they do. The operation will swing into action on Tuesday when Mr Bush flies into Heathrow in Air Force One - the £112million Presidential plane. After being given a formal welcome by Prince Charles, he will be swept away in his armour-plated limo in a convoy of 20 cars and "war wagons" freighted into Britain last week.
The paranoia is such that parts of his visit are being kept secret.
We know he is due to address the joint Houses of Parliament ... but we can't tell you when.
We know his staff have taken more than 900 hotel rooms ... but we can't tell you where.
And if lots of people seem glad to see him, don't be surprised. "Crowd builders" are sent out to ensure he is always addressing cheerful, cheering throngs of people - which means anti-war protesters are being kept well away.
More than 100,000 demonstrators are expected to march through London on Thursday against the war in Iraq - but have been banned from going near Parliament or Downing Street.
Their leaders last night accused the police of bowing to American paranoia in keeping them away.
Many MPs are not happy either after being told they may have limited access to Parliament or may not even be able to get there at all while Mr Bush makes his "secret" visit there to address the Lords and Commons.
One said: "If the Speaker allows this virtual takeover of Parliament by a foreign country he will forever be remembered for surrendering the rights of Parliament - and therefore the nation." We do know the President and wife Laura will stay at Buckingham Palace where a State Banquet will be held on Wednesday evening. Earlier in the day he will give a speech at London's Banqueting House and visit the memorial to the British victims of September 11. On Thursday his schedule includes visits to Westminster Abbey and Downing Street for talks with Tony Blair.
But plans for a procession along The Mall with the Queen - normally a key part of a State visit - have been scrapped because of security fears. The idea was ruled out as a "USR" - unacceptable security risk.
The visit has taken more than three months of detailed planning. A team of 12 Presidential aides first flew to London for a "site survey" to check out all the places he'll be visiting and routes to get there. They included a doctor who assessed which hospitals to use in case of emergency and a photographer who took pictures of all venues for security staff to study.
Six weeks ago, 20 aides arrived to begin polishing the plans. The schedule for the Presidential appearances was finalised - and the aides even worked out the best angles for the TV news crews.
Last week spooks commandeered a local radio frequency to start setting up equipment for scrambling messages. They brought over their own generators in case of power cuts.
Before Mr Bush arrives anywhere, surveillance specialists will sweep all the rooms for bugging devices.
Meanwhile, secret service agents will be driving along all the roads the motorcade will use, to make sure there is enough room for the huge vehicles to turn in if they need to - and that there are enough escape routes.
Lists have even been drawn of who can go into lifts or corridors with the President - and who can't. Schedules and timetables are honed until every minute of his day is accounted for.
Last night a former Presidential bodyguard, Bill Pickles, said: "The thing with the secret service is we don't wait for something to happen, then react. We try to anticipate and head it off.
"We study every assassination attempt that's made in the world. We have a pretty good idea of how an assassination attempt may happen and the type of person behind it.
"Of course, being abroad makes it more difficult. We have incredibly good relations with the British police and authorities, but we are so completely different in our view of the world and the levels of security required."
He was amazed when the Queen visited Kentucky to see thoroughbred horses in the 1980s. "She travelled with one Scotland Yard protection officer!"
It certainly won't be like that this week...
[email protected]
HIS ITINERARY
WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 19: Ceremonial welcome at Buckingham Palace. State banquet in evening at Palace, with guests including Tony Blair.
THURSDAY: Bush to lay wreath at The Tomb of the Unknown Warrior at Westminster Abbey. Lunch with Blair. Bush to host banquet for Queen.
FRIDAY: President expected to visit North-East England with Blair before flying home.
THE LIMOS
THE President's limo, known by its secret service call sign of Stagecoach, is a custom-built £2million Cadillac De Ville. One of four bought by the White House in 2001, it was freighted into Britain by a C17 cargo aircraft last week.
The limo is 22ft-long - the length of a London bus. It includes a fully-armoured perimeter and firewall, with blast shields in the floor and heavy-duty suspension, brakes and steering.
The president rides with the "football", a briefcase carried by a military aide which contains the launch codes for America's nuclear arsenal.
He insists on the car being stocked with bottles of still water and Diet Coke. A special foam inside the armoured petrol tank prevents explosions, while steel plates inside the tyres enable the car to speed away at 65mph with all four tyres shredded.
A night vision infrared-detection system is included to check for missile attack.
The vehicle interior boasts seven-passenger seating with improved comfort and visibility for all occupants.
There is a rear-seat executive package with a concealed foldaway desktop for holding meetings.
There is even a 10-disc CD player and the presidential seal is imprinted on each of the rear doors. It carries a Washington DC registration plate.
The motorcade will include identical-looking limos each carrying six or seven of the President's most important advisers and security officials. The first six limos are known in spook-speak as "the Secure Package".
The code word for the President himself is POTUS (President of the United States).
There will also be a blacked-out decoy limo, flying the Stars and Stripes from the front wing.
It is packed with armed secret service agents wired up through earpieces to the communications wagon following four vehicles behind.
WAR WAGONS
THE first War Wagon is a black Chevrolet suburban. Following behind the limos are up to four more identical War Wagons and a single black estate car carrying a mounted machine gun. Like the other vehicles, they were flown in last week.
The wagons are armoured similarly to the presidential limousine. The agents inside, members of the elite Presidential Protection Department's Counter Assault Team, carry Sig Sauer P229 pistols, supplemented by Remington shotguns and submachine guns. One of the wagons is likely to be equipped with Stinger anti-aircraft missiles.
GUARDS
PEOPLE-carriers with red and blue lights on the roofs will carry yet more guards talking feverishly into the radios hidden in their coat cuffs. Agents work in three teams and do eight-hour shifts, ensuring 24-hour protection for the President and his wife Laura. Minibuses carry all the computers, fax machines and phone lines required to operate the White House on the move.
DEATH WATCH
A "DEATH watch" van records every moment of the event, keeping an eye out for possible terrorists. It has a TV cameraman on board in case of an assassination attempt.
Overhead fly helicopters ready to rescue the President in an emergency. He will be guarded by a US Marine Corps Sikorsky Sea King helicopter and a VIP version of the White Hawk helicopter. An exclusion zone prevents any other aircraft entering airspace near the President.
AMBULANCE
THE ambulance carries a surgeon, nurses, plasma banks and a supply of the President's blood type. It has state-of-the-art resuscitation gear.
SPOOKS
WHEN the motorcade sets off dozens of police cars and motorcycles empty the roads ahead.
Seven hundred US agents protect the President as a team of sniffer dogs work through waiting crowds checking for explosives.
Plain-clothes agents mingle with passers-by and demonstrators. Snipers prepare to open fire.
GETTING HERE
THE President and his entourage will travel from Washington's Andrews Air Force base in two specially-adapted Boeing 747-200s.
The plane Bush flies in is Air Force One - a 30-year tradition going back to President Kennedy. Standing five storeys high and weighing 400 tons, Air Force One can provide the president, his closest aides and security personnel with up to 2,000 meals a trip, and more than 85 phone lines. The
£112million plane has a crew of 23 and 4,000sq ft of space containing sleeping quarters, showers, a stateroom, TVs, a medical room with operating facilities, two kitchens, and a communications centre. It flies 6,200 miles on one tank of fuel, can be refuelled in mid-air and carries 35 days' of supplies in case of nuclear war.
It flies higher than commercial jets, in its own exclusion zone, and has its own missile defences. It costs £33,000 an hour to run, compared to about £4,300 for a commercial 747.
Each plane is kitted out in luxury trim. The presidential seal is emblazoned on the seatbelt buckles, pillows, mugs, napkins and even his shaving kit. The second plane carries white house staff and secret service officials. A third chartered jumbo carries diplomatic staff and other flunkeys.
I suppose this would be a good time to wish all my U.K. brethren a happy protest, with the impending Bush visit.
Watch your behavior, now-remember: KLite protesters are amongst the most well-behaved on earth.
Although I certainly wouldn't be protesting Bush, I must insist those of you who do remember you are representing me, too, at least insofar as your conduct is concerned. :)
I wasn't going to mention this, but in all fairness I guess I should. I was once arrested for throwing rocks through the windows of the US embassy in London. There!
In defence I can only say that at the time we believed that radicalism and violence was the only way to force the US to withdraw from Vietnam. I also believe we played a part in bringing that about, and in so doing, saved many thousands of lives, Vietnamese, and American.
I now see that violence is wrong, and hope it does not occur in England. Alas, it will, as there are still those who think like I did.
:)
Just wondering, Billy:Quote:
Originally posted by Billy_Dean@18 November 2003 - 13:43
In defence I can only say that at the time we believed that radicalism and violence was the only way to force the US to withdraw from Vietnam. I also believe we played a part in bringing that about, and in so doing, saved many thousands of lives, Vietnamese, and American.
Do you think the Pol Pot-led Cambodian genocide, which cost about 1.7 million lives, would have occurred had the U.S. been free to stay and actually fight the war, instead of having U.S. policy waver in the face of protests such as yours?
Does your feeling of having "played a part in bringing that about" include Pol Pot's actions?
Honest question; not trying to provoke. ;)