Altered Carbon

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Originally posted by ck-uk+10 August 2004 - 20:26--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (ck-uk @ 10 August 2004 - 20:26)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

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Originally posted by SnnY@10 August 2004 - 21:20

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Originally posted by ck-uk@10 August 2004 - 22:17

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Originally posted by SnnY@10 August 2004 - 21:09
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@10 August 2004 - 22:05

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And would you want to copy yourself if you were about to die?

if my memories,mind,awareness of my self was there ..i would!!

Do you think you'd still be the person you were then, or just a copy?

Would the person you are be dead, or would he continue in a new body? maybe even just a thing?

Mentaly you would be the same person ,just physicly different

So you'd have nothing against it then?

But you, the you writing this, wouldn't be there tho', right?

Yeah snny ,i would!!

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But you, the you writing this, wouldn't be there tho', right?

Yes,mental figure,being,will be me!! [/b][/quote]
Why are you so sure?

I, and others posting yesterday, had half a notion at least that we'd cease to be even if we copied ourselves, that we wouldn't be here to experience things even as the new copy was walking around. At least purely from our point of view.

I felt I'd be dead if if the information in my brain was copied, and the copy continued instead of me, whereas brenda suggested that the entire body is part of one's conciousness, which might mean that a new body wouldn't be you, either.

Would your answers mean that both of you, ck-uk and manker might be able to deal with the kind of world I described in my initial post?

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Originally posted by Re the book altered carbon
It's this sci-fi novel set in a distant future where people have these sort of hard-drives called cortical stacks in their necks.

Basically, it defines what is human.

When you go to prison, your mind, uploaded from the cortical stack, gets put on storage.

And unless you can afford to pay for the storage of your body, a prisoner released from the same prison may get downloaded in your body, referred to as a "sleeve".

The question is, and I have been thinking a lot about this, whether you would still be you.

I mean, don't we consider ourselves to be our brains, in a manner of speaking?

This was my first thought, which means one would get killed every time one would swap bodies, as the mind in that body gets replaced with that of the new occupant.

But it's more than that, in the book the protagonist also looks at other bodies, and it seems to me he's thinking about them as one would a car, "is it modified", "tuned up" and so forth.

So it seems to me that he identifies himself by the information in his hard-drive rather than that in his mind.

EDit: form.

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Originally posted by RGX+10 August 2004 - 21:40--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RGX @ 10 August 2004 - 21:40)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

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Originally posted by ck-uk@10 August 2004 - 20:26

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Originally posted by SnnY@10 August 2004 - 21:20

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Originally posted by ck-uk@10 August 2004 - 22:17

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Originally posted by SnnY@10 August 2004 - 21:09
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@10 August 2004 - 22:05

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And would you want to copy yourself if you were about to die?

if my memories,mind,awareness of my self was there ..i would!!

Do you think you'd still be the person you were then, or just a copy?

Would the person you are be dead, or would he continue in a new body? maybe even just a thing?

Mentaly you would be the same person ,just physicly different

So you'd have nothing against it then?

But you, the you writing this, wouldn't be there tho', right?

Yeah snny ,i would!!

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But you, the you writing this, wouldn't be there tho', right?

Yes,mental figure,being,will be me!!

Why are you so sure? [/b][/quote]
Read through the topic ...

I like the brain/ram analogy better than a hard drive...surely the chemicals in our brain degrade very quickly without a blood supply for repair etc? Wouldn't this be the same as cutting off the power to a RAM module?

And what about people who become brain dead only a few minutes/hours after their heart has stopped, and are said to be beyond revival even if the rest of their body is fine? Surely this indicates that the brain loses its conciouness when cut off from its blood/electricity charge?

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Originally posted by ck-uk+10 August 2004 - 20:48--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (ck-uk @ 10 August 2004 - 20:48)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

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Originally posted by RGX@10 August 2004 - 21:40

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Originally posted by ck-uk@10 August 2004 - 20:26

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Originally posted by SnnY@10 August 2004 - 21:20

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Originally posted by ck-uk@10 August 2004 - 22:17

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Originally posted by SnnY@10 August 2004 - 21:09
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@10 August 2004 - 22:05

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And would you want to copy yourself if you were about to die?

if my memories,mind,awareness of my self was there ..i would!!

Do you think you'd still be the person you were then, or just a copy?

Would the person you are be dead, or would he continue in a new body? maybe even just a thing?

Mentaly you would be the same person ,just physicly different

So you'd have nothing against it then?

But you, the you writing this, wouldn't be there tho', right?

Yeah snny ,i would!!

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But you, the you writing this, wouldn't be there tho', right?

Yes,mental figure,being,will be me!!

Why are you so sure?

Read through the topic ... [/b][/quote]
Yes, I have. I ask again, why are you so sure? Could you prove it?

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Originally posted by ck-uk+10 August 2004 - 21:48--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (ck-uk @ 10 August 2004 - 21:48)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

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Originally posted by RGX@10 August 2004 - 21:40

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Originally posted by ck-uk@10 August 2004 - 20:26

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Originally posted by SnnY@10 August 2004 - 21:20

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Originally posted by ck-uk@10 August 2004 - 22:17

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Originally posted by SnnY@10 August 2004 - 21:09
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@10 August 2004 - 22:05

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And would you want to copy yourself if you were about to die?

if my memories,mind,awareness of my self was there ..i would!!

Do you think you'd still be the person you were then, or just a copy?

Would the person you are be dead, or would he continue in a new body? maybe even just a thing?

Mentaly you would be the same person ,just physicly different

So you'd have nothing against it then?

But you, the you writing this, wouldn't be there tho', right?

Yeah snny ,i would!!

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But you, the you writing this, wouldn't be there tho', right?

Yes,mental figure,being,will be me!!

Why are you so sure?

Read through the topic ... [/b][/quote]
Thats hardly a good answer :rolleyes:

The topic is made up of any many different views and points which leads to everyone making their own opinion of it, saying read the topic is hardly sound reasoning behinfd your opinion is it? :smilie4:

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Originally posted by RGX@10 August 2004 - 22:49
I like the brain/ram analogy better than a hard drive...surely the chemicals in our brain degrade very quickly without a blood supply for repair etc? Wouldn't this be the same as cutting off the power to a RAM module?

And what about people who become brain dead only a few minutes/hours after their heart has stopped, and are said to be beyond revival even if the rest of their body is fine? Surely this indicates that the brain loses its conciouness when cut off from its blood/electricity charge?

Good point.

Still, what gets damaged might not be one's memories but other functions of the brain.

I had the notion that the part of the cortex that stores one's long term memory is different from the part that stores the short term information.

The one being the hard-drive, etching our long term memories into our synapses, whereas the short term memory is more fleeting, more like ram, intended fror what with need right this moment.

And the part of you that breaks down would first and foremost be the controlling part, equal to everything else in a computer, maybe.

Coma-patients, and seemingly brain dead people have been known to wake up after extended periods of no activity, was my idea. This when the operative parts of the brain has somehow gotten jump-started or healed.

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Originally posted by RGX@10 August 2004 - 21:49
I like the brain/ram analogy better than a hard drive...surely the chemicals in our brain degrade very quickly without a blood supply for repair etc? Wouldn't this be the same as cutting off the power to a RAM module?

And what about people who become brain dead only a few minutes/hours after their heart has stopped, and are said to be beyond revival even if the rest of their body is fine? Surely this indicates that the brain loses its conciouness when cut off from its blood/electricity charge?

Think theoretically.The technolgy is availible.Base on the actual tranplant!

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Originally posted by ck-uk+10 August 2004 - 20:58--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (ck-uk @ 10 August 2004 - 20:58)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-RGX@10 August 2004 - 21:49
I like the brain/ram analogy better than a hard drive...surely the chemicals in our brain degrade very quickly without a blood supply for repair etc? Wouldn't this be the same as cutting off the power to a RAM module?

And what about people who become brain dead only a few minutes/hours after their heart has stopped, and are said to be beyond revival even if the rest of their body is fine? Surely this indicates that the brain loses its conciouness when cut off from its blood/electricity charge?

Think theoretically.The technolgy is availible.Base on the actual tranplant! [/b][/quote]
I have yet to see a successful brain transplant. And even if there was one, how could you be sure the conciousness would be kept alive, not just the data storage? They may not be the same thing, hence the entire debate throughout this thread you asked me to read.

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Originally posted by SnnY+10 August 2004 - 21:41--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (SnnY @ 10 August 2004 - 21:41)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I, and others posting yesterday, had half a notion at least that we'd cease to be even if we copied ourselves, that we wouldn't be here to experience things even as the new copy was walking around. At least purely from our point of view.

I felt I'd be dead if if the information in my brain was copied, and the copy continued instead of me, whereas brenda suggested that the entire body is part of one's conciousness, which might mean that a new body wouldn't be you, either.

Would your answers mean that both of you, ck-uk and manker might be able to deal with the kind of world I described in my initial post?

<!--QuoteBegin-Re the book altered carbon
It's this sci-fi novel set in a distant future where people have these sort of hard-drives called cortical stacks in their necks.

Basically, it defines what is human.

When you go to prison, your mind, uploaded from the cortical stack, gets put on storage.

And unless you can afford to pay for the storage of your body, a prisoner released from the same prison may get downloaded in your body, referred to as a "sleeve".

The question is, and I have been thinking a lot about this, whether you would still be you.

I mean, don't we consider ourselves to be our brains, in a manner of speaking?

This was my first thought, which means one would get killed every time one would swap bodies, as the mind in that body gets replaced with that of the new occupant.

But it's more than that, in the book the protagonist also looks at other bodies, and it seems to me he's thinking about them as one would a car, "is it modified", "tuned up" and so forth.

So it seems to me that he identifies himself by the information in his hard-drive rather than that in his mind.

EDit: form. [/b][/quote]
I've read the whole thread now. It certainly is very interesting, SnnY you make a good chairman. I particularly liked the part about the teleport in Star-Trek, I think in a similar way but am not much concerned with the philosophy behind having our molecules ripped apart and then reconstructed because provided they are reconstructed in exactly the same way, I see no problem.

I think a little different to the others in the thread, apart from ck-uk it seems.

I consider myself to be encompassed completely in my brain, and yes, I think of my body as a 'sleeve' if you'd like to put it that way. I've taken great care of my body through sport over time but I've never thought I have to be contained inside it to continue being me.

I think all this can be summed up in a procedure which is almost science fact. A brain transplant would engender the same emotions and debates because if a perfect copy of the brain is made then it would be akin to a brain transplant. I'd have no problem with that if it saved my life and if it was a success then I'd still be the same person - though affected by the experience just as I'm affected by every other experience in life.