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No offence, but don't you think that the bible has a lot of contradictions? I just don't believe in it. I don't believe in Jesus being God's Son, I believe he was a prophet but that was all. Study the Qu'ran, it has a lot of answers and dosn't leave you with questions in your head like the bible. It also shows us some scientific proof like plate tectonics, it wasn't even discovered back then. Other things like the earth not being flat.
as does the bibleQuote:
Originally posted by 99shassan@21 November 2003 - 20:34
No offence, but don't you think that the bible has a lot of contradictions? I just don't believe in it. I don't believe in Jesus being God's Son, I believe he was a prophet but that was all. Study the Qu'ran, it has a lot of answers and dosn't leave you with questions in your head like the bible. It also shows us some scientific proof like plate tectonics, it wasn't even discovered back then. Other things like the earth not being flat.
did u even bother to read all my evidence? :(
May I ask what evidence you are talking about? What book are you reffering to?
I ment all the information I had posted previous to you.Quote:
Originally posted by 99shassan@21 November 2003 - 23:08
May I ask what evidence you are talking about? What book are you reffering to?
Resources where the Bible itself, Origin Of The Species and quotes from scientists, doctors and magazines etc.
@dale!!!
The information you posted was obviously copy/pasted but it still didn't answer my questions directly.
There is no logic in that because we are discussing whether what is written in the Bible is true or not and if it was written by men or not.Quote:
The bible say's that God created man, therefore logic suggests that he did not evolve from some goo in the ocean.
There is no evidence that the Bible was written by a deity (directly or indirectly), thus everything in it may be true or false.
The divergence exists in the causes and in the processes of evolution, not between whether Man is a product of evolution or creationism.Quote:
Notice the opening introduction to Origin Of The Species:
"As we know, there is a great divergence of opinion among biologists, not only about the causes of evolution but even about the actual process. This divergence exists because the evidence is unsatisfactory and does not permit any certain conclusion. It is therefore right and proper to draw the attention of the non-scientific public to the disagreements about evolution"
Consider evolution as a reel of film. Each frame of the film is an evolutionary state. Some frames were preserved and we can analyze them (fossiles), but the majority was simply destroyed or is yet to be discovered.
The fact is that some frames have already been found and they prove the existance of the reel of film (evolution).
But the problem still stands: How can we see the whole picture and come to a consensus with only some frames available?
Wrong. Light came before anything else. The Sun was there long before the Earth ever existed. The Earth was never "in darkness".Quote:
The account lists 10 major stages in this order: (1) a beginning; (2) a primitive earth in darkness and enshrouded in heavy gases and water; (3) light; (4) an expanse or atmosphere; (5) large areas of dry land; (6) land plants; (7) sun, moon and stars discernible in the expanse, and seasons beginning; (8) sea monsters and flying creatures; (9) wild and tame beasts, mammals; (10) man
I can see the Moon, the Sun and other stars with my own eyes and write about them.
Is there no mention of the distant galaxies, black holes or other cosmic objects that you can't see with your own eyes?
An omnipotent deity would know EVERYTHING to the very last detail, don't you think?
The descriptions are always too vague, clearly not of someone who knows everything.
I read all the Fish to amphibians?; Amphibian to Reptile?; Reptiles to Birds?; Reptile to Mammal? and it doesn't say anywhere that those theories are impossible, just highly improbable. It even agrees on some points.
Being highly improbable just shows why life as we know it, can't easily be found on other parts of the universe.
Just because something is highly unlikely to happen doesn't mean it's impossible.
Is it that hard to believe that among the billions of planets and similar solar systems, we are one of those (or perhaps the only one!) that beat the odds?
Most people have a hard time understanding what can be achieved in millions of years when we only last mere decades. People also have a problem dealing with infinity.
In the Conclusion on Evolution that you posted, it is stated that Man is unique. It's true that Man is unique... along with every other species.
Birds can fly, we can't. Fish can live in the water, we can't. We can think logically, other animals can't.
Every animal has its own unique feature that distinguishes them from the others, but we all have the same instincts.
So basically, we are all specific but still share the same basic needs (lust, hunger, the need to sleep...) even though our brain is much more developed. If we were created in God's image, why do we share basic instincts with supposedly inferior animals?!
The superstition and hygiene parts are merely cultural. The ones who wrote that part of the Bible were influenced by the culture they were identified with, and thus discarded what was considered non-sense to them.
Circumcision just proves my point.
If God is perfect and can do just about anything, why would He create Man with "physical imperfections" and tell him how to fix them later? Why not make Man perfect from the start?
Circumcision is another cultural aspect that had to be explained, somehow, in a divine way, so that everybody would follow it.
dale!!!, if you're going to post again, please don't copy/paste other people's thoughts and theories.
Bring your own ideas forward and mention what you think that should be discussed. If you want to backup your ideas, just post a link. It will suffice and will help making the discussion clearer. :)
I've read bits of the bible as part of religious studies but have had no desire to study it in any detail in my spare time. Being an atheist I don't believe in any religion am kinda impartial to the whole religion thing (its done alot of damage to people and caused alot of problems but it can also bring out the best in people). Personally I feel if people want to believe in such things then they can and if it helps them deal with the things life throws at them then good but I honestly have seen nothing to convince me that there is a "higher calling" or god like figure watching over me or anyone around me. The bible and all holey books seem to focus on life and knowledge at the time in which it was created and indeed has many flaws which are being poked at by modern views and modern advancing scientific knowledge (most which are counter claimed by people believing in religion). I do feel one day that religion as we know it will stop as a final blow is dealt which reveals that they are indeed works of fiction made by some very clever people and carried on down the generation.
@Johnny_B
Hi. First of all: Sorry, I won't do any more pasting, however I wasn't pasting entire articles etc, just snippets of information I had compiled together.
However, I would still like to quote directly from the bible, mainly to save time with people looking up scriptures and to benefit those without one to hand.
If nessescary, i may quote a person or magazine in brief.
Thanks
Yes I agree, the Sun was created before the Earth, however, "in darkness" is because of all the dust and gases etc that surrounded the earth.Quote:
The Sun was there long before the Earth ever existed. The Earth was never "in darkness".
One important thing to take onboard is that the bible was physically written by men, and aimed for man to read. Although God inspired these men what to write about, he told them to write it from mans viewpoint. As you rightly said, God should know everything about all the universe etc if he created it, but what would be the point in telling us all the advanced information our top scientists of today would stuggle to comprehend, never mind the people alive during and since the time it was written.
2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, 17that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.
That is basically a description of what the bible is. It is not an advanced scientific text book on how every aspect of the universe works, but it gives you all the vital information you need on living your life properly and understanding about the spiritul aspects of things. However, it is allways scientifically acurate.
It is a fact that fossils have been found which proove that the creatures did in fact exist in that time. Period.Quote:
How can we see the whole picture and come to a consensus with only some frames available?
As from having just this part of the picture, why insist this proves evolution, when in fact non of the parts found show any signs of it what so ever. However, evolutionists assume that unfound fossils would proove evolution, whereas from the physical unassumed evidence, this fits in perfectly with creation.
Also, fossils found in different places are obviously from different times, but if evolution was a steady process over all these years, then how come fossils found from several years difference dont show this process? The older the fossil, the further back stages of evolution would be found, but they are all the same.
Bible mentioning outer space
Several times in the bible, God used the stars to illustrate a countless number, in comparisan to the grains of sand on earth that there are.
Genesis 22:17 I shall surely bless you and I shall surely multiply your seed like the stars of the heavens and like the grains of sand that are on the seashore; and your seed will take possession of the gate of his enemies.
Think of how many grains of sand there are? Think of how many stars there are? There are 100,000,000,000 approx in our milky way, much more than those that could be seen with the naked eye in those days. We can only see a few thousand. Yet, God says that the number of stars in the heavens are like the number of grains of sand.
Judges 5:20 From heaven did the stars fight,
From their orbits they fought against Sis´e·ra.
A reference to stars orbiting.
Jude 13wild waves of the sea that foam up their own causes for shame; stars with no set course, for which the blackness of darkness stands reserved forever
Could this be refering to stars that have no set course, as in dying, will turn into black holes?
Job 38:31-33
31Can you tie fast the bonds of the Ki´mah constellation,
Or can you loosen the very cords of the Ke´sil constellation?
32Can you bring forth the Maz´za·roth constellation in its appointed time?
And as for the Ash constellation alongside its sons, can you conduct them?
33Have you come to know the statutes of the heavens,
Or could you put its authority in the earth?
This is reffering to some of the different constellations in space; this, along with other scriptures, indicate that the bible assumes a universe which is fully rational and vast in size. Compare this with contempory world view, where the universe was not rational, no bigger than what the unaided human senses could actually see.
1 Corinthians 15:40-41 And there are heavenly bodies, and earthly bodies; but the glory of the heavenly bodies is one sort, and that of the earthly bodies is a different sort. 41The glory of the sun is one sort, and the glory of the moon is another, and the glory of the stars is another; in fact, star differs from star in glory.
How did man know in that time that stars differed in colour, size, light produced, temperature and the relative density?
I agree to a certain extent. However, with the incountable amount of perfectly acurate complex combinations of events and atoms etc etc, the chance of it all happening is like 1 in a number that wudn't fit on this page. Then whats the chance of it happening first time?Quote:
Just because something is highly unlikely to happen doesn't mean it's impossible.
Is it that hard to believe that among the billions of planets and similar solar systems, we are one of those (or perhaps the only one!) that beat the odds?
Isn't it more resonable to consider that some form of intelligent creator created all thses things?
The difference between fish and birds and mammals etc is far less than the difference between our brains. Yes, each animal is unique in its design and complexity (even though they should be similar if evolved from each other), but human intelligence, our memory, all our abilities are far greater, plus they are on top of our physical differences as in the fish can live in water we cant idea.Quote:
It's true that Man is unique... along with every other species.
Birds can fly, we can't. Fish can live in the water, we can't. We can think logically, other animals can't.
As I'm sure you would agree, developing a brain such as ours would be a big acheivment and objective for evolution, so why didn't the other chain of species end up to develop them? They all had just as much time, we all agree on a minmum amount of thousands of years that man has been around as he is now, so why haven't birds etc changed even with all that extra time?
Humans were assigned by God to care for and cultivate the Earth, this is our likeness with God. We have the attributes of love, wisdom, power and justice and to have a desire to do purposeful work and feel achievment. This is the way in which we differ from animals and ponder ultimate questions that no other living creature on the earth does.Quote:
If we were created in God's image, why do we share basic instincts with supposedly inferior animals?!
These extreme culteral differences, the bible followers allways happened to get it exactly right, whereas all the other cultuers where way off, not having a clue about anything. All the things that seem sane for us to do today, like wether to apply excrement to an open wound or to burry it underground, we basically would only know this and all the other thousands of things through trial and error.Quote:
The superstition and hygiene parts are merely cultural. The ones who wrote that part of the Bible were influenced by the culture they were identified with, and thus discarded what was considered non-sense to them.
The bible got it right instantly, wereas its only been literally in the last 100 years that men who chose to figure these things out for himself are just starting to understand.
About the circumsision, you missed the point completely. I was making the point that how did humans then know that the 8th day of a childs life would be the appropriate day to perform this operation? Today, medical research has discovered that the Vitamin K is produced at this time, and is at its greatest then, so an operation such as this would have the bodys best circumstances to be perfomed on this day.
Humans back then didn't have a clue about vitamins etc, but as God created us, he knew everything there is to know and so lovingly informed them of the day correct day to do this.
This is leaving the evolution subject, but as this forum is about the bible then i don't see why it also cannot be discussed.Quote:
If God is perfect and can do just about anything, why would He create Man with "physical imperfections" and tell him how to fix them later? Why not make Man perfect from the start?
God did create humans perfect at first; Adam and Eve.
However, they dissobeyed God, and so reaped the pregiven consequences, part of which was to loose their perfection.
As "God is love", he then would help people further down in ways such as informing them of the circumsisions ideal day, amongst many, many other things.
I hope this has been a beneficial post for you to read, it took me a while to write completely by myself without ANY copying/pasting (just the bible scriptures).
Thanks for reading
No animal on this world believes in a higher power or something like god. No animal on this planet can willingly commit suicide or comprehend the concept of it. There are no animals on this planet that wage war, kill for sport or act in revenge! They are not the flawed creation, we are!
The bible tells of miracles and supernatural events but so does The Matrix and The Lord of the Rings. Do you believe that the actions and events depicted in The Matrix and The Lord of the Rings are real? Why then should the bible be any different?
If the bible is the work or word of God and God is the almighty being, why does the original bible (not the modern sanitized version) have so many grammatical errors in it?
Explain this: More than half of the population of this planet do not believe in a religion/God. As years pass, fewer and fewer people believe in a religion/God (this is a fact).
Suppose that the overwhelming majority of people (at least 51%) do not believe in flying purple cows and the minority does believe in flying purple cows. There has never been a true recorded case of a flying purple cow. Honestly, do you believe the overwhelming majority or the minority?
MadDog, thats a lot of twisted reasoning.
LOTR and The Matrix are recognised works of fictional entertainment, all conveiving ideas that are not possible with todays scientific knowledge.
The bible is a book of truth and can be backed up by scientific evidence.
No animal can do those things as they do not have the higher intelligence that humans have been given. Basically, they are comparable to mindless robots, despite there bodys still being scientific miracles.
About your statistical ideas.
First of all, 51% is not an overwhelming majority of 49%.
Yes it's true that there is no record of flying purple cows nore any evidence what so ever to back it up (as with most evolution theories), but everyting in the bible makes sence, fits together perfectly with the other parts that where written with hundreds of years difference, fits in with all related archealogical findings and scientific and medial facts.
You should read my posts carefuly, take on board and actually consider it, before narrowmindley throwing it all away like that.
No one has yet proved them wrong.
BTW what are those gramatical errors you talk about?
“Grammatical peculiarities ... must be preserved, since a text known to be inspired cannot be susceptible to corruption. ... Biblical methods of expression, metaphor, and idiom must be preserved, even if outlandish by Latin standards, as must also the ‘Hebraic’ forms of proper names.”
- Cassiodorus — copied from The Cambridge History of the Bible.
Based on all the amazing things proven to me from the bible, and all the flaws in evolution and other theories, id be with the "minoroty" even if i was the only one.
Unlikely, as its another fact that the more scientists find out, the more it looks like a creator is involved, and more are increasingly believing this!
Thats rubbish. Animals have evolved over millions of years to do what they're good at (namely survive and reproduce). Just because they cannot communicate on the same level as humans nor do they have a brain that allows them to contemplate suicide or war (which is probably a good thing <_<) does not make them simple or mindless.Quote:
Basically, they are comparable to mindless robots, despite there bodys still being scientific miracles.
And yes you can find almost anything if you look hard enough in the bible (or any religious book or large text for that matter) and quote the right bit. There are probably hundreds of strange predictions and theories in the bible with only a few being highlighted that, by chance, apply to this day and age.
As for a decline in religion it is fairly rapid. Go back a generation or two and lots more people went to church now (due partially to the advance or science a general advance in life and the way we live and a change in culture) very few people attend church regularly and religion as a whole is decreasing.