Cows Or Humans

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Originally posted by nahan+5 June 2003 - 01:33--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (nahan @ 5 June 2003 - 01:33)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--nahan@5 June 2003 - 00:23
Aniamls were put on this earth for one reason ,to provide for HUMANS.
Not so we could provide for them.
Thats why they werent created with the intellect of ours.
They were created for a purpose.

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Lamsey and select others
It makes you very ignorent and single minded ,to not take this all into account.
To compare a human life to that of a chicken or cow is preposterous.

And poor poor lamsey, to resort to name calling wont win you any arguments.Calling me a "troll "
It isnt needed for an adult conversation.

But thats right you arent an adult yet,so everyone excuse lamsey he has
still got many things in life to learn . [/b][/quote]
Again you display a poor grip of civilised discussion.

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It makes you very ignorent and single minded ,to not take this all into account.
To compare a human life to that of a chicken or cow is preposterous.

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Covered before - read my posts again and come back when you understand.

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And poor poor lamsey, to resort to name calling wont win you any arguments.Calling me a "troll "
It isnt needed for an adult conversation.

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I am not insulting you. I am describing you with the common term in BB circles for the kind of member that you are. "Poor, poor Lamsey" is name-calling.

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But thats right you arent an adult yet,so everyone excuse lamsey he has
still got many things in life to learn .

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This is true - but you clearly have more and that is a saddening thought.

This is not debate, it is intellectual bullying.

It does you no credit.

Oh give it a rest. What I&#39;m doing is better than flaming.

If you still have a problem with me, PM me or contact the mods.
No flaming&#33;

Yeah everyone understands what you wrote.
But if you cant come to terms and comprehend the true value of human life.
Then you have much to learn.

As for animal life I understand the true value,they keep me alive.
And provide me w/ delicious meals.Others companionship.

Its the food chain .

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Originally posted by Lamsey@5 June 2003 - 01:55
Oh give it a rest. What I&#39;m doing is better than flaming.

If you still have a problem with me, PM me or contact the mods.
No flaming&#33;

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Humans eating animals is neither right nor wrong, it is nature.

Do you fight your sexual urges because your efforts at procreation no longer are required to maintain the human race (your argument as to why we should no longer eat meat). No, you don&#39;t fight it, you put on a condom and have your cake and eat it too.

We do not chose to find steak delicious, our bodies are programmed to desire steak.

You must understand that there are no "good" smells or "bad" ones. Each individual organism has its own take. We find meat to smell good, herbivores are repulsed. We don&#39;t like feces (The usuable nutrients have been leeched- thus it smells "bad"), but dung beetles roll it up and call it home.

Cows are no more sentient than corn, trust me, my grandmother had 200 head. All they do is eat grass and crap on themselves. They have no concept of self, no dreams, no aspirations. When the young are sold off, they never call or write. Most cows are raised threat free, fed regularly as they are rotated from field to field and die before they know they are threatened. In the wild, they die from disease and predation with a greatly reduced life expectancy, which way do you think is more humane?

Plants respond to light and local nutrient gradients, they just communicate in a language you can&#39;t understand. Why don&#39;t you consider the burning of sugercane a holocaust, because you can&#39;t hear them scream. Death, none the less, burned to a crisp. Every 5 years, all crops are killed and the fields replanted. Genocide, why not. Why is plant life less important than yours?

The point is, that there is a natural order of things. Cows eat grass, we eat cows. What if we just stopped eating them? They would reproduce unchecked, denude the earth of grass and then starve in massive numbers.

As for animal mistreatment, I don&#39;t think that bears any relevance on my desire to eat meat. We all should oppose abuse, I don&#39;t mind a little toughness in my steak.

Overall, I have no problem with vegetarians, do as you please. But when you get on this moral high ground, I take umbrage. I hope you don&#39;t have wooden floors as trees were massacred for this luxury. I take for granted you don&#39;t wear a belt or shoes. Chewing gum contains gelatin which comes from animals, that&#39;s a no-no. Don&#39;t get me started on toothpaste (binding ingredients).

Lamsey, you remind me of many young adults. Someone enters your life and starts filling your head with all of these ideals. It is an exciting time and you are primed for intellectual abstract growth, but to my more seasoned mind, your thoughts are well intentioned, but stupefyingly naive.

Human life and animal life are not equal, but neither should be taken for granted nor abused.

A lifelong family friend of mine owned a ranch outside Conifer, Colorado. Twenty years ago or so, she and her husband, longtime animal lovers, became interested in llamas and began a herd. Ultimately they owned 60 some animals, many of whom were champions at the Stock Show.
She doted on these animals and treated them like pets.
Each and every one of them had names, she (thought she) knew their personalities, and would not break up a mother-child pair- if you wanted to buy the mother you had to buy the offspring, too.
It had to be Llama Paradise.

A younger friend of hers became interested in weaving ( specifically using llama wool) and convinced the local/national llama association to bring some Peruvian women in to show them how it was done.
When the Peruvians arrived- they were to stay on my friend&#39;s ranch, she had a party to welcome them. I was invited.
As the party heated up ( and after a quantity of alcohol was imbibed ), my friend asked one of the women-" What is your llama&#39;s name?"
Blank stare. Finally "Uh, Llama, I guess."
"What do you do when they start to get old?"
Blank stare.
"Uh, well they die. Then we eat them".
My friend about had a stroke.

The point i&#39;m trying to make is that a lot of our feelings and perceptions re:animals are culturally/environmentally conditioned.
To my friend, llamas were adorable, treasured pets.
To the Peruvian woman they were useful tools that, as a bonus, became food.
You, Lamsey, can be sentimental about animals- anthropomorphise their feelings and rights- in great part because you can afford to. You have options ( and by all means, excercise them at will).
Those who live in more extreme circumstances than you do not have the luxury.
I doubt that Hobbes&#39; grandmother named her cows.
The Peruvian would probably not be able to comprehend the argument that animals have feeling and rights.
And should she accept the premise, she would almost certainly dismiss it as irrelevant.
It ultimately comes down to "me or them" for many people on this planet.

You are truly fortunate not be among that group.
And please don&#39;t confuse your good fortune with moral superiority. The phrase "A man&#39;s gotta do what a mans gotta do" is not just a movie quote, but a survival credo for over half of this planet&#39;s population.

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Do you fight your sexual urges because your efforts at procreation no longer are required to maintain the human race (your argument as to why we should no longer eat meat). No, you don&#39;t fight it, you put on a condom and have your cake and eat it too.

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I feel this to be a naive analogy; sex using a condom can, in no way be compared to the slaughter of animals. I don&#39;t understand how you can draw a parallel here.

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Most cows are raised threat free, fed regularly as they are rotated from field to field and die before they know they are threatened.

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if this were only the case. It is the fact, that most animals killed for food in todays society are kept in the most cramped conditions. The vast majority never turn around in their lives; as the pens in which they are kept are too small. They never lie down.

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What if we just stopped eating them? They would reproduce unchecked

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Im sure you don&#39;t actually believe that man goes out each day in order to hunt wild cows, who roam the countryside. If we didn&#39;t eat cows, then the farmers would not breed them, hence there would be fewer cows being born, hence stable equilibrium.

But this is all off topic

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My new friend Lamsey likens Farmers to Hitler. I say this is a bit h4r5h (on the Farmers obviously).

I say that the Holocaust and the attempted genocide of an entire group of people, with the death of 6,000,000 Jews and the dreadfull suffering of countless others, is worse than killing cows (no matter how many).

My new chum is of the opinion that the life of a cow is as important as that of a human. To be fair I should mention that he is a vegetarian, so his view is not entirely unexpected.

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To comment on the original ideas (this thread wasn&#39;t intended as to discuss the merits of vegetarianism) I would have to agree that it is impossible to compare hitler and farmers, though I do agree that the scale of the atrocities carried out each day is unbelievable. I urge you all to google for information about "animal rights" ~ I appreciate that many of the organisations are biased, so some of the information should be taken with a pinch of salt, but please look at the intensive farming methods that are used. I find it mind-boggling that anyone can seriously say that the ways in which these creatures are killed is not awful. I also find it incredible that fully grown members of today&#39;s society are able, without remorse to say that they are OK with being a part of this culture of "my life is more important than that of another animal" This is, without doubt the trappings of an evil society.

Lamsey is not alone:

http://www.masskilling.com/

http://www.masskilling.com/analogy.html

As for myself, i can relate to both sides.....

Dont shout at me for the contents of that site, i didnt wrote it, i just wanted to show it.

Removed noncontructive material


This thread is confusing me, is it about dietary preference or animal abuse?

I have already offered my unconditional support to people who oppose animal abuse.

I also think it is incorrect to label those who eat meat as "unethical" as Lamseys states. (He actually says that there is no longer any ethical reason to eat animals).

My point is this: plants are living sentient creatures too, just as deserving of life as animals. We tend to forget this as plants don&#39;t scream.

We eat animals, not out of malice, but to fill a niche in the food chain.

Being able to debate "ethical eating" at all is a luxury that an "ethical" person must find ironic.