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i realize what u r saying and saw the letter at the link. however, i really dont think a war will decrease the amount of hatred we see towards the US. if anything, it will increase the amount of terrorism.
i know many innocents have died under hussein and i realize that many innocents will die no matter what anyone says, it will happen. And again, this war will not prevent a future terrorist attack against ne1, and especially not against the US.
The article is very well written. I am a true believer in the repeating nature of history, that simple lessons hold true regardless of time and place. Major, singular powers in past history have faded for various reasons. It may happen to the United States. That is another issue for another time.Quote:
Originally posted by my man otis+20 March 2003 - 04:57--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (my man otis @ 20 March 2003 - 04:57)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Quote:
Originally posted by -Rat Faced@18 March 2003 - 23:38
<!--QuoteBegin--Crackedup
Quote:
@18 March 2003 - 19:22
I do find it sad that so many US citizens, probably not the enlightened ones on this board, know so little about what's going on outside their shores. Perhaps it's part of the whole cultural thing. You know the 'second is the first loser' thing and having a World Series sport in which the world doesn't take part.
You may like to read a very interesting article that is upcoming in 24 March edition of Newsweek:
The Arrogant Empirewhich covers somethings a lot better than I can.
Can I ask Americans to read this link posted by Crackedup?
The issue now is the validity of the war.
The war is not about oil. Americans can care less about the price of oil. I drive a large SUV because I want to and can. If the price of oil rises, so be it. A 20% cost in the price of gasoline doesn't have a huge effect per person. In 10-15 years power cells will be running in most cars on the road so it won't matter. We'll be talking about $0.25/gallon gasoline and giving loans to Middle Eastern countries that have failed to diversify their country's revenue stream.
The quote above, stating that it is sad that American's don't know what's going on outside of our shores, may be true to some. But the converse is also true - citizens of other countries don't know what's going on inside of our borders.
Hijacked planes destroying buildings 4 blocks from where I work everyday is nothing the United States is used to and certainly nothing we will accept. As the article so elloquently points out, there was a military response unlike any other seen in history. We have the equipment and the means to do so.
It is not our problem that other countries will not or cannot respond to terrorists in this manner. I see the "new" Manhattan skyline as I go to work every day. I fear that my office may be next. It can happen again and probably will, regardless of actions we take. But we sure as hell aren't going to sit around and wait for it to happen.
There will be remarks that the war costs too much, the inspections were working, etc. But you can't put a price on over 3,000 lives that were lost on that day and uncounted numbers lost to terrorism in the past. You can't wait to see what may happen, you can't wait to give terrorists time.
But what counts is my safety as an American citizen. Do what has to be and what will be done. [/b][/quote]
Eloquently stated, sir.
I've been trying to get that very point across to several of our non-Yankee brethren; it's a tough go-glad to have you on my side.
I believe you're right, lil z, but only (hopefully) in the short run. We are, as otis said, doing everything with an eye towards weakening/mitigating/compromising/marginalizing/destroying terrorism. If you can't imagine it any other way, regard it as a practical exercise in international behavior-modification; in the long run, it will NOT have the negative effect many expect, because it can't. History-and logic-dictate it.Quote:
Originally posted by lil_z@20 March 2003 - 05:20
i realize what u r saying and saw the letter at the link. however, i really dont think a war will decrease the amount of hatred we see towards the US. if anything, it will increase the amount of terrorism.
i know many innocents have died under hussein and i realize that many innocents will die no matter what anyone says, it will happen. And again, this war will not prevent a future terrorist attack against ne1, and especially not against the US.
I believe you're right, lil z, but only (hopefully) in the short run. We are, as otis said, doing everything with an eye towards weakening/mitigating/compromising/marginalizing/destroying terrorism. If you can't imagine it any other way, regard it as a practical exercise in international behavior-modification; in the long run, it will NOT have the negative effect many expect, because it can't. History-and logic-dictate it. [/b][/quote]Quote:
Originally posted by j2k4+20 March 2003 - 06:56--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (j2k4 @ 20 March 2003 - 06:56)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--lil_z@20 March 2003 - 05:20
i realize what u r saying and saw the letter at the link. however, i really dont think a war will decrease the amount of hatred we see towards the US. if anything, it will increase the amount of terrorism.
i know many innocents have died under hussein and i realize that many innocents will die no matter what anyone says, it will happen. And again, this war will not prevent a future terrorist attack against ne1, and especially not against the US.
what wont have a negative effect? the war? it will be good for those in iraq who do survive (the majority).
what do u mean "history and logic dictate it"? why cant it have a negative effect? i dont understand what u mean.
i didnt say the war was all wrong. the motivation is right. but the ends (freedom in iraq) doesnt always justify the means (innocents dead).
also, why do u seem to think that this will even have the slightest impact on terrorism? it has not been proven that iraq has ties with al qaeda, the main organization that the US is concerned with. (there was a link earlier i think in this thread about terrorism and iraq). just like afghanistan, taking down a government will not stop the international network of terrorism against places like the US. it has been proven tho that iraq harbors terrorists of other sectual (is it a word?) organizations which target places like iran or israel.
so overall, in the end will come good, but how can u feel good when u kill innocents? (even for a "good" means, or even tho many more could have died under Saddam). there are many pros and cons, thats why im on the fence about military action. i cant say if its necessary or not, but the US has made that decision.
Innocents (pics taken by me when I worked there), and not innocents as in "we hate Americans and know war is coming" but innocents as in went to work one day and never left:
http://webdesignerscentral.com/SUPERJUDE/wtc1.jpg
http://webdesignerscentral.com/SUPERJUDE/wtc3.jpg
http://webdesignerscentral.com/SUPERJUDE/wtc4.jpg
http://webdesignerscentral.com/SUPERJUDE/wtc6.jpg
http://webdesignerscentral.com/SUPERJUDE/wtc7.jpg
http://webdesignerscentral.com/SUPERJUDE/wtc10.jpg
Now I am not a "warmongering" American and I really hope they just kill Saddam and end the war, cause death is horrible on a large scale and I wish that on nobody other than those who say "Kill all Americans". I truly wish we were in countries in Northern Africa where they train terrorists, or Saudi Arabia which acts like an ally while funding terrorism.
But maybe this is all a reminder to the rest of the world not to screw with our borders.
As much as people complain about the states, don't forget this:
You think Russia, China or even FRANCE would ever wait this long to invade another country? Of course not, yet they cast the first stones of judgement with dirty hands.
-SJ™
SuperJude-
We seem to be massing here-feels good.
lil z-
Could I kindly suggest you re-read the last 6-7 posts? Then think hard for a bit before you post again-I really want YOU to understand all this. Forget about links and shit-you lived here, you NEED to get this.
SJ - now u have to remember that terrorists do not belong to a single nation, and they definately wont be stopped by destroying one (or two). (how many times have i said that??). being in africa or saudi instead prob wont do much for terror.
how is this a reminder not to screw with our borders? they screw with the borders everyday (i wont even mention mexico :P ). why do u wish death to those who say kill all americans (actually, what am i saying?? they r obviously extremely ignorant and brainwashed). innocents are innocents (im not talking about "kill all americans" ppl here). iraq has tons of innocents too, and iraqis, or people from the middle east, are not necessarily terrorists (im not quite sure u said that, but just clearing this up) and do not necessarily want bad for america. u cant be so general in these topics. i am a descendent of Pakistan. what does that mean? nothing.
and as for russia, china, and france, why do they have "dirty" hands just because of their judgement? they just have strong opinions (or maybe a little more in the case of france). im not exactly sure what u mean by this.
please make sure u leave bias out of this, even though 9/11 (extremely severe) happened in the US.
A lot of the world really doesn't understand us I'm coming to find. People I chat with then say things about "Americans" that I simply know to be untrue. We are the most diverse country on the planet.
I don't see people rushing the move into China or Russia, and take away the Alec Baldwins of the world, France either (nice place to visit though I heard).
War and death are horrible, but I will not turn my back on the fact that the people actually doing the fighting are my fellow countrymen, of ALL persuasions thank you very much.
-SJ™
j2k4 - i do get this! stop being so biased! i know 9/11 was harsh, but do u realize how other countries feel about the US? read the damn article if youre not clear! tons of people on this forum have stated these opinions for u! do U get it?!
Terrorism will NOT stop by tackling the taliban, taking out saddam, or acting against any other national gov't. iraq is more about a dangerous dictator than terrorism. terrorists are not big old obvious targets to hit. PLEASE realize that acting against an entire nation (although not purposefully killing innocents) WILL kill innocents and WONT stop terrorists! does that mean nothing to you??
guys, im trying to put forth all the views on these topics and im trying not to be biased, but it seems like u guys ARE! take another view, and be open-minded. its not easy, and u prob wont like to do it, but try.
im NOT saying 9/11 is justified and NO terrorists have a right to do what they do, but u cant keep going back to 9/11 and using that as an excuse to fight a war which really has little to do with it.
u guys r confusing the war on terrorism (which included afghanistan) with this one. NOT the same thing, just cuz theyre both in the middle east.
i dont get what ure trying to say. YES, the rest of the world is biased too! every1 needs to see all the viewpoints to get the right idea of whats going on. then u can tell why this war is justified or why its wrong.Quote:
Originally posted by SuperJude™@20 March 2003 - 07:36
A lot of the world really doesn't understand us I'm coming to find. People I chat with then say things about "Americans" that I simply know to be untrue. We are the most diverse country on the planet.
I don't see people rushing the move into China or Russia, and take away the Alec Baldwins of the world, France either (nice place to visit though I heard).
War and death are horrible, but I will not turn my back on the fact that the people actually doing the fighting are my fellow countrymen, of ALL persuasions thank you very much.
-SJ™