I thought he'd incorporated a bit too much wishful thinking into the mix myself. But I too felt it was interesting to say the least.
Edit: in regards to the link.
Printable View
I thought he'd incorporated a bit too much wishful thinking into the mix myself. But I too felt it was interesting to say the least.
Edit: in regards to the link.
1. I did not say you had asked for an apology - you chose that shoe yourself.Quote:
Originally posted by Billy_Dean@19 September 2003 - 04:16
@jpaul:
First off, who did I demand an apology from? Read first JP, answer after.Quote:
I love it when people, who are happy to abuse and name-call others get onto the moral high ground and demand an apology when someone is "nasty" to them.
Have I ever had a problem with that? Play me, not my friends.Quote:
I also love it when people talk about what they are and aren't as if others should know this. The only way people know you here is thro' what you write and how you write it. So if someone forms an opinion of you it is based on your own words.
I find it rather ironic that you should be defending the catholic church from a charge of brainwashing. I would have thought with all the shit and misery they have caused to so many people, and continue to cause, that an accusation like that was small fry.
I stand by my words, teaching religion, any religion, to young kids, who don't understand both sides is wrong, and an attempt to instill a doctrine before the child is old enough to make up their own mind.
The point you make about people being raised in a non religious way, then finding faith, reinforces my view, there is no need to force it on kids.
As to bashing Islam, be my guest, who cares. I personally find that it's judaism that is untouchable, not islam. I guess I'm anti-semetic, at least, I hope I am.
B)
2. I said I was a Catholic and defended the Catholic Faith. As with many organisations, particularly the older ones there are almost inevitably dark times and people who align themselves to it. I do not believe that I defended the Catholic Church.
3. People are also taught atheism. By the example of their parents and those around them. This is no different.
4. Your views are yours and you have the right to express them. Disagreeing with soemone however is an entirely different thing from attacking what they believe.
It seems to me that he is taking natural facts, and using them as evidence that they are a bit too convenient for us to have been placed sonewhere with just the right conditions. He seems to ignore the obvious possibility that had the conditions for life been different, that we might have come to exist in another place.Quote:
Originally posted by SnnY@19 September 2003 - 16:48
"evidence of a designed universe"
Good for a laugh at least.
(Sorry Chalice, this is a bit more on-topic)
In other words, it is not coincidence, the fact that the right conditions exist is the reason why we are here rather than a place which would not support life. Indeed, if the conditions for life were different, there is sufficient diversity in the universe to ensure that life would still have come to exist, although such life may not be in places which we would regard as habitable, never mind hospitable.
While I would not question his knowledge of Engineering and Materials Science, it seems doubtful if his skills in logic are all that well developed. He probably believes that if all mice are grey and all mice make holes in your walls, then everything that is grey makes holes in your walls. I hope he never gets elephants.
I'm quoting you here JP, your words.Quote:
I love it when people, who are happy to abuse and name-call others get onto the moral high ground and demand an apology when someone is "nasty" to them.
How about when their religion, by it's own doctrine, is an attack on me? When a religion claims "their way" and their beliefs are the only true path, and their followers are the only ones who will find "salvation", is that not an attack on me?Quote:
4. Your views are yours and you have the right to express them. Disagreeing with soemone however is an entirely different thing from attacking what they believe.
"Even though God created the non-Jew they are still animals in human form. It is not becoming for a Jew to be served by an animal. Therefore he will be served by animals in human form."
Can I not attack this, because it is someone's belief?
:)
@lynx: it may be mad, but it's still an interesting perspective, no?
@billy_dean: I understand what you are trying to say, but I don't believe that modern jews live by this belief to any larger extent, and at any rate they do acknowledge that you have the potential at least to become human since there always is the option to convert :P
Are you sure about that?Quote:
Originally posted by SnnY@20 September 2003 - 04:09
@billy_dean: I understand what you are trying to say, but I don't believe that modern jews live by this belief to any larger extent, and at any rate they do acknowledge that you have the potential at least to become human since there always is the option to convert :P
:)
In any religion, Fundamentalism is wrong.Quote:
Originally posted by SnnY@19 September 2003 - 19:09
@lynx: it may be mad, but it's still an interesting perspective, no?
@billy_dean: I understand what you are trying to say, but I don't believe that modern jews live by this belief to any larger extent, and at any rate they do acknowledge that you have the potential at least to become human since there always is the option to convert :P
An ultra-orthodox Jew would not speak to you if he could help it, and certainly would not invite you into a social gathering...exactly because he believes this.
An ultra-orthodox jew barely recognises other jews, if they are not ultra-orthodox.
Thankfully, most Jews are not ultra-orthodox, just like most muslims and christians are not fundamentalist.
People should be judged by who they are, not on a misunderstanding as to their beliefs, based on a generalization.
I would also ask you to look into conversion.....its not easy to convert to Judaism.
You have to prove you have a jewish soul 1st.....
This is the one Religion of the world not trying to save you, conversion is actively discouraged by Rabbi's. You either have a Jewish soul or dont...its upto you to prove it. If you dont, your not one of the chosen....simple.
Are you being obtuse - who mentioned your name. I certainly did not. You quote me - probably a good idea to read the quote. Like I said earlier, if you chose to try that particular shoe on and found that it fit that is a matter between you and .... you.Quote:
Originally posted by Billy_Dean@19 September 2003 - 20:03
I'm quoting you here JP, your words.Quote:
I love it when people, who are happy to abuse and name-call others get onto the moral high ground and demand an apology when someone is "nasty" to them.
How about when their religion, by it's own doctrine, is an attack on me? When a religion claims "their way" and their beliefs are the only true path, and their followers are the only ones who will find "salvation", is that not an attack on me?Quote:
4. Your views are yours and you have the right to express them. Disagreeing with soemone however is an entirely different thing from attacking what they believe.
"Even though God created the non-Jew they are still animals in human form. It is not becoming for a Jew to be served by an animal. Therefore he will be served by animals in human form."
Can I not attack this, because it is someone's belief?
:)
When did I attack your belief in atheism (if that's not a contradiction in terms). I have never described you as an animal, I have nothing against animals. Neither have I cast scorn on what was programed into your brain.
You have every right to defend yourself, at least I believe so. However that is entirely different from scattergun attacks on anyone who happens to believe in a deity.
My point (if I had one was) A. That most jews don't live by those, somewhat skewed ideals
And B. That they acknowledge the possibility of you "being human" if it's up to you to prove, it certainly makes it harder, but there is still a chance, although slimmer than I would have liked to think.
And yes fundamentalism is wrong, and come to think of it so is most forms of organized religion, given the amount of misery it has caused during centuries passed.
But you certainly can't judge anyone on the basis of their particular beliefs alone,
unless, of course, those beliefs involve an enforced lack of acceptance towards the rest of mankind.
Edit: am I wrong in any way here?, any jews in the audience? :)
Edit again: @ratfaced: who were you aiming at?, I was a bit off with regards to the conversion bit, but I tried to say the same thing you did otherwise ie: most jews do not live with the belief that gentiles are animals. :)
[quote]Originally posted by JPaul@20 September 2003 - 04:26
Come off it JP, this remark was aimed at me, and you know it was! You're like the kid with jam round his mouth, denying he'd had his fingers in the jar. Go read back, put your words in perspective, stop squirming.Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy_Dean,19 September 2003 - 20:03
You then go on to deny calling me an animal! Did someone accuse you of that too?
Religions feel free to attack anything they see fit, and do so all the time. When they are attacked back, they appeal for "respect" whilst showing little in return.
Someone once claimed that if it were not for the catholic church, man would have landed on the moon 1000 years ago. An interesting thought.
:)
Where is Cowswithguns? I thought she would be udderly delighted with my apology. Must be out to pasture.
Again, it is ironic that the very vehicles which claim a loving God, a forgiving God are the cause of so much strife.
I had a long talk to an Afghani mate yesterday, a muslim by birth, but not by practise. He is an unashamed jew hater, his right of course, just as many jews hate muslims.
We had a long discussion\argument on lots of issues, but there was one really funny interlude. It began when he asked why, if jews were god's "chosen people", did this god not intervene in the holocaust. After all, he said, hitler was only one man, surely their god was more powerful than that? He then went on to talk about the jewish "homeland", and asked why, if they were god's chosen people, did he give them some of the worst land in the world. With all the beautiful, green productive land around the world, why there? He then said god was probably trying to lead them somewhere nice, but these stupid people kept getting lost in the desert, after 40 years of this, god finally gave up and said, here, here it is, you've arrived, and left them to it.
Well it was funny at the time anyway.
:)
Well, remember God has not always been in good temper. He did kill every human being and animal with the great flood. The holocaust was a triviality compared to that. It wasn't a rash decision either as the ark took 104 years to construct.Quote:
Originally posted by Billy_Dean@20 September 2003 - 05:32
I had a long talk to an Afghani mate yesterday, a muslim by birth, but not by practise. He is an unashamed jew hater, his right of course, just as many jews hate muslims.
We had a long discussion\argument on lots of issues, but there was one really funny interlude. It began when he asked why, if jews were god's "chosen people", did this god not intervene in the holocaust. After all, he said, hitler was only one man, surely their god was more powerful than that? He then went on to talk about the jewish "homeland", and asked why, if they were god's chosen people, did he give them some of the worst land in the world. With all the beautiful, green productive land around the world, why there? He then said god was probably trying to lead them somewhere nice, but these stupid people kept getting lost in the desert, after 40 years of this, god finally gave up and said, here, here it is, you've arrived, and left them to it.
Well it was funny at the time anyway.
:)
If the land is worthless, why are the Palestineans fighting for the same plot?
Maybe their god doesn't give a shit either!Quote:
If the land is worthless, why are the Palestineans fighting for the same plot?
:)
I guess it goes back to how pathetic the whole situation is.Quote:
Originally posted by Billy_Dean@20 September 2003 - 05:49
Maybe their god doesn't give a shit either!Quote:
If the land is worthless, why are the Palestineans fighting for the same plot?
:)
Two sides, fighting to the death, over Gods which don't exist and land that is totally worthless.
Reminds me of myself trying to pick up ugly chicks in the bar parking lot after closing time- a lose/lose proposition.
why would u wanna do that?Quote:
Originally posted by hobbes@20 September 2003 - 05:10
Reminds me of myself trying to pick up ugly chicks in the bar parking lot after closing time- a lose/lose proposition.
:D
why would u wanna do that?Quote:
Originally posted by james_bond_rulez+20 September 2003 - 07:00--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (james_bond_rulez @ 20 September 2003 - 07:00)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-hobbes@20 September 2003 - 05:10
Reminds me of myself trying to pick up ugly chicks in the bar parking lot after closing time- a lose/lose proposition.
:D [/b][/quote]
You only realise they are ugly the next day.
See related topic "beer goggles".
You only realise they are ugly the next day.Quote:
Originally posted by hobbes+20 September 2003 - 06:06--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (hobbes @ 20 September 2003 - 06:06)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Quote:
Originally posted by james_bond_rulez@20 September 2003 - 07:00
<!--QuoteBegin-hobbes
Quote:
@20 September 2003 - 05:10
Reminds me of myself trying to pick up ugly chicks in the bar parking lot after closing time- a lose/lose proposition.
why would u wanna do that?
:D
See related topic "beer goggles". [/b][/quote]
lolololololololol
Well Rikk, your Afghani friend appears to have an extensive knowledge of the Torah, maybe, being a muslim, he should read a little more in his Koran, then he would never make such jokes.Quote:
Originally posted by Billy_Dean@20 September 2003 - 05:32
I had a long talk to an Afghani mate yesterday, a muslim by birth, but not by practise. He is an unashamed jew hater, his right of course, just as many jews hate muslims.
We had a long discussion\argument on lots of issues, but there was one really funny interlude. It began when he asked why, if jews were god's "chosen people", did this god not intervene in the holocaust. After all, he said, hitler was only one man, surely their god was more powerful than that? He then went on to talk about the jewish "homeland", and asked why, if they were god's chosen people, did he give them some of the worst land in the world. With all the beautiful, green productive land around the world, why there? He then said god was probably trying to lead them somewhere nice, but these stupid people kept getting lost in the desert, after 40 years of this, god finally gave up and said, here, here it is, you've arrived, and left them to it.
Well it was funny at the time anyway.
:)
[/b][/quote]Quote:
Originally posted by nigel123+20 September 2003 - 16:30--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (nigel123 @ 20 September 2003 - 16:30)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Billy_Dean@20 September 2003 - 05:32
Well Rikk, your Afghani friend appears to have an extensive knowledge of the Torah, maybe, being a muslim, he should read a little more in his Koran, then he would never make such jokes.
Did I say he had an extensive knowledge of the Torah?
What I did say was that he was a non practising muslim.
:)
It makes me feel unsettled when jokes are made about the killing of millions of people. (or any for that matter)
It wasn't a joke, I found it funny in the context of the conversation.
He said it as a reply to two aspects of judaism: 1. That jews are god's chosen people. 2. That land was "given" to them by their god.
Or is he, as a muslim, practising or not, not entitled to refute claims made by another religion?
BTW, you should hear his views on islam, a religion he grew up with in Afghanistan. His views would certainly annoy many muslims.
:)
No Hobbes, not out to pasture just yet....Quote:
Originally posted by hobbes@20 September 2003 - 14:14
Where is Cowswithguns? I thought she would be udderly delighted with my apology. Must be out to pasture.
Again, it is ironic that the very vehicles which claim a loving God, a forgiving God are the cause of so much strife.
Udderly thrilled with the apology, thanks.
I find that whole post disturbing. Particularly when taken in the context of previous posts you have made.Quote:
Originally posted by Billy_Dean@20 September 2003 - 05:32
I had a long talk to an Afghani mate yesterday, a muslim by birth, but not by practise. He is an unashamed jew hater, his right of course, just as many jews hate muslims.
We had a long discussion\argument on lots of issues, but there was one really funny interlude. It began when he asked why, if jews were god's "chosen people", did this god not intervene in the holocaust. After all, he said, hitler was only one man, surely their god was more powerful than that? He then went on to talk about the jewish "homeland", and asked why, if they were god's chosen people, did he give them some of the worst land in the world. With all the beautiful, green productive land around the world, why there? He then said god was probably trying to lead them somewhere nice, but these stupid people kept getting lost in the desert, after 40 years of this, god finally gave up and said, here, here it is, you've arrived, and left them to it.
Well it was funny at the time anyway.
:)
You find concept like "Jew Hater" easy to deal with and you have described yourself as anti-semitic.
Never mind your religious beliefs, I am more concerned about your political ones.
amen
JPaul:
What do you want to know?Quote:
Never mind your religious beliefs, I am more concerned about your political ones.
:)
If you don't mind discusssing it - what your political persuasions are.Quote:
Originally posted by Billy_Dean@20 September 2003 - 14:16
JPaul:
What do you want to know?Quote:
Never mind your religious beliefs, I am more concerned about your political ones.
:)
For example would you consider yourself a socialst, or would you consider yourself as being more conservative. Do your allegiances lie to the left or right of center. In either case would it be slightly or more extreme. In fact do you hold political views which would normally be considered extreme. In either direction.
If I lean at all, it would be left, and sometimes right. Is there a position for cynicism?
I don't vote, never have and never will, tweedle dum and tweedle dee politics don't interest me.
My views on lots of things would be considered extreme, were you to know my true feelings.
:)
I am interested, you don't seem like the sort of chap to hide his views. You certainly haven't given that impression.Quote:
Originally posted by Billy_Dean@20 September 2003 - 14:28
My views on lots of things would be considered extreme, were you to know my true feelings.
:)
You'll really have to be more specific JP, I'm not gonna write a book. What exactly did you want to know? Or am I just meant to say something outrageous?
:)
Say something, don't say something, it's entirely a matter for you.Quote:
Originally posted by Billy_Dean@20 September 2003 - 15:09
You'll really have to be more specific JP, I'm not gonna write a book. What exactly did you want to know? Or am I just meant to say something outrageous?
:)
You said you had some views which may be thought extreme by others. It simply piqued my curiosity. So I wondered if you would elucidate. If you wish not to that's cool.
I can't really be more specific, as I am totally unaware what your extreme views may be. A hint perhaps as to what area(s) they may cover.
This sounds like fishing with a very long pole.
I believe they call it trolling. ;)
I think you're right!Quote:
Originally posted by lynx@20 September 2003 - 23:17
This sounds like fishing with a very long pole.
I believe they call it trolling. ;)
Let me say again JP, if you wish to hear my opinion on a certain subject, ask me, I'll be happy to oblige.
As for opinions, I have hundreds, thousands maybe, who knows? How many do you have? Whether or not they are controversial, that's subjective, I would need to express them all, you would then have to decide. I don't see that happening.
:)
This is what I was responding to. You said you had views which could be considered extreme.Quote:
Originally posted by Billy_Dean@20 September 2003 - 14:28
My views on lots of things would be considered extreme, were you to know my true feelings.
:)
As I said several posts ago if you want to discuss them cool, if not then no problem either way.
How is that fishing ?
In fact this is exactly what I said
"Say something, don't say something, it's entirely a matter for you.
You said you had some views which may be thought extreme by others. It simply piqued my curiosity. So I wondered if you would elucidate. If you wish not to that's cool."
How is that fishing ?
I thought you were an adult, given that you have stated you have children of your own, that is a reasonable assumption. If you want to talk and debate even argue, that's fine by me. Particularly if we have views which differ. Debating things which we agree on is really rather boring. If not fair enough it really isn't that important.
It is interesting that a thread on religion should ultimately disintegrate into a slanging match.
Interesting but ultimately not surprising I suppose. :ph34r:
I think we generally manage that whatever the topic :-"Quote:
Originally posted by Biggles@20 September 2003 - 17:13
It is interesting that a thread on religion should ultimately disintegrate into a slanging match.
This process is inevitable, I think it has to do with our "biorhythm". People will engage in intense back and forth dicussion for a variable yet finite amout of time. If resolution does not occur in this framework, minds will stray and the focus lost. Slanging is one of the options pursued in this break period and the thread will meanander about for a while until someone with a fresh mind joins in to refocus it. Meanwhile, our mods have been tossing the thread from forum to forum to match each post ;).Quote:
Originally posted by Biggles@20 September 2003 - 17:13
It is interesting that a thread on religion should ultimately disintegrate into a slanging match.
Interesting but ultimately not surprising I suppose. :ph34r:
This process is not dependent on the subject matter, I think you will find evidence of this in every thread. We can only be intense and serious for so long, then we need to lighten it up, take a break.
I find this type of rhythm somewhat similar to what we observe in real life. Have you ever been in a busy restaurant, people talking busily, waiters shuffling about, silverware clanging, then suddenly, without cue, complete silence - everyone stops talking a once. A weird occurance where everyone takes a break simultaneously.
Anyway to push this thread back toward being on track, who is afraid of death? I am, it is the only thing I really fear.
I would like to go back to something JPaul said about death. He claimed to be afraid of death.
I was wondering if he meant:
1. Fear of what happens after death. Judgement or nothingness.
2. Fear of the moment when you realize you are actually dying (seconds to minutes away).
3. Fear of dying- the longer term process of a used body wasting away in some nursing home. Your former vibrant self reduced to a babbling poo-poo pants. You look at these people and say, "I never want that to be me!".
For me it's probably because I have watched both things happen. Twice each and very close up.Quote:
Originally posted by hobbes@20 September 2003 - 17:33
2. Fear of the moment when you realize you are actually dying (seconds to minutes away).
3. Fear of dying- the longer term process of a used body wasting away in some nursing home. Your former vibrant self reduced to a babbling poo-poo pants. You look at these people and say, "I never want that to be me!".
For me 3/
and, to be honest:
4/ Pain before death.
Death itself, i dont fear.........its what precedes it, that I dont like.
Life?Quote:
Originally posted by Rat Faced@20 September 2003 - 10:26
Death itself, i dont fear.........its what precedes it, that I dont like.