How clever of you to work that out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Biggles
We mods have better methods. :snooty:
Printable View
How clever of you to work that out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Biggles
We mods have better methods. :snooty:
Quote:
Originally Posted by lynx
:ph34r: Apologies for using Luddite techniques.
Yes and yes, BrisVegas.Quote:
Originally Posted by Biggles
This Billy fella must have been quite famous l take it, should l be flattered for the association?
:ph34r: Perhaps.Quote:
Originally Posted by RioDeLeo
:lol:
Seeing as your links aren't exactly unbiased or extremely reliable, and because you really do seem to be to have some real issues with all israelis, you lost yours first, I'd say. And can you prove they are all lies, or crap for that matter?Quote:
Originally Posted by RioDeLeo
Secondly, remember Vietnam? Think about how many soldiers lost their marbles in Vietnam, now consider the fact that this is a very common thing in extremely hostile situations.
It's extrememly bad that it happens, but killings such as the one that article describes need not necessarily be indicative of that the soldier(s) involved were under orders to kill the child, or trained to do so.
Rather they might well have succumbed to the pressure.
A real problem with the israeli army is that, given the percieved need to defend everything, there aren't enough experienced soldiers to go around which makes for a lot of mistakes.
"What goes on" according to you, is neither indicative of a norm nor something that most israelis want.
As for the settlers firing from the rooftops, I assume it was the same kind of settler that isn't supposed to be settling anything, ie illegal settlers. Israel has its right wing nutter fundamentalists too, but they are nowhere near a majority of the population. And it still doesn't make the bulk of the Israeli population into villains or somesuch, or the word "israeli" into something vile.
And I always wonder about these comments about them having the approval of the army.
Having said that, I don't think it's any more right than suicide bombings, which is something equally insane. But the only thing you've proven is that a small element of the Israeli population have gone as nuts as the suicide bombers.
That too is very bad, and someone should indeed be held accountable. But how many of these children died because they stood in the middle of a crowd throwing rocks, bottles and whatever they could get their hands on at israelis? And how many were killed by rubber bullets?Quote:
Originally Posted by RioDeLeo
I don't think the killers on the israeli side should go on as they do, and they are guilty of their share of atrocities, sure enough, but I don't think your way of arguing makes for a fair judgement at all.
Ok then, 1234?Quote:
Originally Posted by lynx
I bet that there are many Israeli's that would just be done with it and want to wipe out all of the Palestinans. I could easily see how this mindset would come about.Quote:
Originally Posted by SnnY
Just like I could understand a Palestinian father that hears his only son was collateral damage in an Israeli rocket attack. Instead of looking at his own as partly responsible he then decides to walk in a cafe with a bombbackpack.
For the most part I think that Palestinians want peace. However I think there is an evil contingent in that country and the Arab world for that matter that ignores a ceasefire just to start up the violence again....on both sides.
Someone asked why would somone be a suicide bomber. Keep in mind that Islam is a much more seious religion than most. When I say much more serious I mean it involves much more regimen than say Christianity. Take Christianity then add that you must eat halal meat and no pork, wash a certain way, pray 5 times a day and in a certain matter, etc. Then tell those, which are many, a twisted version of jihad is something they should embark on and also add that they lost a loved one.
Suicide bomber. :ph34r:
In normal circumstances l couldn't be a suicide bomber, having no religious beliefs means l have no concept of an afterlife, so this is it for me, l'm very picky about what circumstances l would lay down my life for.Quote:
Originally Posted by Busyman
However, l would gladly die to save the lives of my kids, so l can imagine that someone who loves their "God" as much as l love my kids would be willing to die if they believed that what they were doing was right.
l have no doubt that every (Muslim) suicide bomber really believes they are carrying out the work of Allah. They aren't doing it as a prank, and they aren't criminals in that sense, and they believe they will go straight to wherever it is that suicide bombers go.
That pretty much sums it up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Busyman
That and certain salvation for martyrs pretty much gets you all the murderers you can use.
I reckon there are more nutters than there should be on both sides.Quote:
Originally Posted by Busyman
To be honest I don't think, at this point, that's it's possible to say that one side is completely right or indeed right at all, and one is not, anymore.
The only thing I'll argue against are those comments that are aimed to make villains of one side or another, as, while neither side is without guilt, there are reasons to what happens that go beyond something easily quantifiable as right or wrong.
But a majority of both peoples isn't guilty of any warcrimes, thefts or atrocities.
I do think that most people, anywhere really, would prefer to live and let live. But, like you, I can certainly see how people on both sides would lose their balance in the face of murders and atrocities.
@SnnY:
The ammount of nutters on both sides (Palestinians militants, and religious settlers) is a minority on both sides.
The main difference is, that on the Arab side of it, this minority sort of "rules" on the streets, and dictates Palestines political policies, whereas on the Israeli side, the minority barely has a say, and all they can do is harm Israels view by the rest of the world, which they do, but at least Israel can somewhat keep them under control.
So you're both to blame, but they're more to blame than you? Got it!Quote:
Originally Posted by tralalala
If you really believe that minorities have very little say in Israeli politics you must be blind, minorities play a huge part, always have, and the loudest voices for the fewest votes are the Ultra Right Wing parties, the ones who want ALL Arabs out of "Greater Israel", which includes much more than just Palestine.
:lol: You honestly think that whatever they say makes a difference?
Most people don't give a toss about those nut-jobs... They whitter on about holy shit in Gaza, kill Arabs etc. whereas most people don't even give them air time... Theres maybe 1 MP from that party in the parliament.
The regular right wingers don't beleive in pulling out, but do not beleive in driving all Palestinians out of where they are.
Loudest voices.... :lol: you crack me up Rio... you haven't a clue... :lol: :lol:
SourceQuote:
Israel is having political and religious problems in its armed forces. The head of the armed forces has openly reminded all officers that, when they are on active duty, they must obey their officers, and not their rabbis. The major dispute comes from the deeply religious settler community. These are the Jews that believe in “Greater Israel.” That is, an Israel that takes over the West Bank and all other territories that were once part of Israel in the ancient past. This would include, depending on which version of Greater Israel you believe in, parts of Lebanon, Syria, Egypt and other nearby countries. So far, the Greater Israel movement has established itself as Jewish settlements in the West Bank and Gaza. The Palestinians, naturally, don’t agree with this form of expansionism. Israel, being a democracy, has found that a majority of the population does not agree with the Greater Israel idea either. So a recent government decision to shut down the settlements in Gaza brought the government into direct confrontation with the Greater Israel movement. Since the settlers believe they are obeying a religious mandate to resettle historically Jewish lands, they see efforts to remove them in religious, not political, terms. Israel has a conscript army, thus many of the troops are believers in the Greater Israel concept. These soldiers are being told by their religious leaders that they should refuse orders to assist in the removal of settlers from Gaza. This brings us back to the commander of the Israeli armed forces reminding everyone that the religious leaders have no authority to countermand orders from military commanders. This is not the first time individual Israelis have refused to follow military orders they did not agree with. In the past, these soldiers were simply removed from service, and sometimes jailed. But this time the number of soldiers who might be involved numbers in the thousands. The army is allowing soldiers with relatives in settlements to be shut down, to, if need be, get transferred to a unit not involved in settlement operations. But beyond that, the army is telling the troops that it will not allow rabbis to countermand military orders. Any soldier who refuses to obey officers will be punished.
The problem Israel faces is not unique. All nations have, at one time or another, run into problems when divisive political, or religious, issues caused a breakdown of discipline. If the dissenting groups are large enough, such disagreements can lead to civil war. Some extremist religious leaders have called for that. But for now, the number of soldiers. who might be tempted to disobey orders, appears to be small. This is partly because many of the most religious young men are exempt from conscription if they are engaged in religious studies. But the main reason this will not be a major problem is because Israel is a democracy, and whatever decisions that are made represent the majority. The religious parties in Israel have always been small (about 15 percent of the parliament). These parties are more religious than political, seeking new laws that will increase the power of religion in day to day life. The fear in Israel is that some of the deeply religious Jews will become radicalized, and violent. As some Israelis have been heard to observe, “Israel is turning into a Middle Eastern country.”
That sites hardly pro or con...
Good site, but you do realize, I hope, that "religious" doesn't necessarily equal ultra-religious right wing-types.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rat Faced
It's disconcerting that thousands of troops would disobey orders like that, btw. I'm guessing that it's still a small percentage of the entire israeli army (50,000 people or so, I think) but even so.
I think that the soldiers disobeying orders aren't the only ones that need to be punished in that affair, those rabbis should have their fair share of it too.
I'm not trying to say that they are a majority or even imply such.
However 15% of the parliament is a long way from "1 MP"
1000's of troops willing to disobey orders and follow the rabbi's is not minor.
Folow the Rabbi's what.
Considering they talk out of their arseholes, i leave that to the workings of the reader ;)
That appears a bit harsh.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rat Faced
Yes it is, however, you are missing the point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rat Faced
Tralala said that: "Theres maybe 1 MP from that party in the parliament." when referring to: "the Ultra Right Wing parties, the ones who want ALL Arabs out of "Greater Israel", what you quoted said that 15% of the israeli parliament belong to religious parties.
Religious doesn't automatically translate to: "the Ultra Right Wing parties...etc." You see?
True, it's very bad, but at the same time it's just a small percentage of the entire army, which means that it isn't what most israeli soldiers do.Quote:
1000's of troops willing to disobey orders and follow the rabbi's is not minor.
:01:
Try reading what l actually said, instead of your usual schoolboy rhetoric. l said "Minorities" play a huge part in Israeli politics, which they do. Your government is a coalition, at the moment between the two main parties, Labour and Likud, sworn enemies.Quote:
Originally Posted by tralalala
Party (translation in quotes, party leader in parentheses) - percent of vote by party -
- Likud Party ("Union") (Ariel Sharon - prime minister) - 29.4% (38 seats+ 2 seats of Yisra'el Ba'Aliya).
- Labour Party or 'Avoda-Meimad ("Labor") (Amram Mitsna) - 14.5% (19 seats)
- Shinui ("Change") (Yosef Lapid) - 12.3% (15 seats)
- Shas or Mifleget HaSfaradim Shomrei Torah ("Orthodox Sephardi Party") (Eliyahu Yishai) - 8.2% (11 seats)
- HaIhud HaLeumi ("National Union") (Avigdor Lieberman) - 5.5% (7 seats)
- Meretz ("Vigor") (Yossi Sarid) - 5.2% (6 seats)
- Yahadut HaTora ("United Torah Judaism") (Yaakov Litsman)- 4.3% (5 seats)
- Mafdal or Miflaga Datit Leumit ("National Religious Party") (Ephraim Eitam) - 4.2% (6 seats)
- Hadash ("Democratic front for peace and equality") (Muhammad Baraka) - 3.0% (3 seats)
- Am Ehad ("One Nation") (Amir Peretz) - 2.8% (3 seats)
- Balad or Brit Leumit Demokratit - Al-Tajamu' Al-Watani Al-Demokrati ("National Democratic league") (Azmi Bishara) - 2.3% (3 seats)
- Yisra'el Ba'Aliya ("Israel on the rise (also immigration)") (Nathan Sharansky) - 2.2% (2 seats). Now, part of the Likud.
- Raam ("United Arab List") (Abd al-Malik Dahamshah) - 2.1% (2 seats)
It's you who haven't a clue, and you live there. You have been caught out with your lies and bullshit throughout this thread. You answer the posts you think you have an answer for, whilst ignoring those that stuff you. You repeat the same old shit over and over. As l said before, you started this thread to make it look as though you give a shit about the Palestinians, when in fact you don't. :frusty:
Ummmmmm, why have I been caught out with that post of yours?
I never said only 1MP from religiouse party, I meant 1 from the worst party.
The ones I was referring to were Yehadut Hatorah - 5 seats as you put it... Hardly a say eh? They haven't been an influence on anything whilst in parliament. Shas however, do not want to kill all Arabs, and in fact, at one time wee willing to compromise on the disengagement. So, once again, as someone who doesn't live here - YOU are the one without a clue.
@SnnY: You are typing everything I wanted to say.... man, that's scary!! :lol:
Aww come on but, but, but.........Rio googled. :huh:Quote:
Originally Posted by tralalala
He can't be wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tralalala
l'll tell you what Rafi, you read this book, and then make serious comments on it if you can. The book is about Jewish fundamentalism and it's effect on the Israeli political system. It might be a bit much for you as there aren't any pictures, but give it a go.
Jewish Fundamentalism in Israel - by Israel Shahak and Norton Mezvinsky
Quote:
Originally Posted by Busyman
- Engage brain
- Read what was written
- Consider your reply
- Post
So that's how you do it. :ohmy:Quote:
Originally Posted by RioDeLeo
- Engage brain :wacko:
- Read what was written
- Google for words you don't understand :unsure:
- Consider your reply :lookaroun
- Consult Google again and maybe Ask Jeeves about it :frusty:
- Post with Googled links :01:
Good one that man Rio!!! :clap:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Busyman
Unlike superior humans like you, l'm not divinely inspired, l need to learn, when l need a list l Google for one, and reprint it, why don't you tell us what you would have done in the same circumstances, oh superior being you. :hypocrite
I don't give away secrets. Besides that, Google has proven your point to a T. I commend you. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by RioDeLeo
However, it will never up innate intelligence....just the appearance of intelligence.
For every googled link to prove your point there is most likely a counter.
Keep it up and I'll think you a table member.
l defy anyone on here to say they haven't used Google to garner information.Quote:
Originally Posted by Busyman
How much of it is correct?Quote:
Originally Posted by RioDeLeo
Can one come to an accurate conclusion based on google all the time?
Does one google more than one source or settle for the first link?
Does said person crack open a book or pass their eyes by any other media source?
edit: I see you are European. Still not a Newcummer though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Busyman
Quote:
Originally Posted by RioDeLeo
Which part of Africa?
It's hard to say, as new evidence turns up daily, and is often disputed, here's an example .. Secrets of the Dead.Quote:
Originally Posted by bigboab
Meh. All the cool kids are using Wikipedia these days.
When will the land be returned to the natives of North America, of Africa, of Australia and New Zealand. In fact everywhere else where it was stolen.Quote:
Originally Posted by RioDeLeo
is this playing along with the europe thing? :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by RioDeLeo
i'd hate to side with billy dean, but STFU busyman. doing research is good. when i really want to find something out, i use google. i don't settle with the first link either. i check multiple sources. if it's a news story i'll check bbc.co.uk (i know it's only one source, but i trust it :liberalmedia: )
just because it's not read from a book doesn't make it any less valid you n00b.
I use http://infoweb.newsbank.com :snooty:Quote:
Originally Posted by GepperRankins
The Australian part, apparently. :huh:Quote:
Originally Posted by bigboab
I rather think that Busy's point was that google is a search engine, it finds results depending on what you ask it. Google has no interest whether the results it gives are either valid or true.Quote:
Originally Posted by GepperRankins
Try this link:
The first result provides "scientific evidence" that the moon is made of green cheese, but there are many more too. Your argument appears to be that since it is on google it must be true.