What do you guys think, is it the right thing?
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What do you guys think, is it the right thing?
Its a start...
It's probably a finish too, can you imagine the fuss if they try to evacuate the West Bank?
l can't understand how they can justify shooting Palestinians for doing the same thing but not the settlers.
l think Israel will regret this move, they think it will lead to the Palestinians agreeing to them keeping what they have stolen in the West Bank, but the Palestinians will never agree to it.
l also don't believe they pulled out for purely peaceful purposes, as Hezbola has claimed, they were kicked out too, too many Israelis killed and impossible to police the place. The West Bank is a different thing, they have built a wall to protect them, and are abandoning the hardest ones to defend.
Exactly what I was going to say. But It IS THEIR LAND though isnt it?Quote:
Originally Posted by whypikonme
it's probably a good move, the timing is certainly needed to ease tensions on both sides imho. time will tell.
Its already had one huge effect on the Diplomatic front of the Middle East..
Iran, which has never recognised Israels right to exist, has stated that when the withdrawal is complete it will support the 2 State solution.
This is a de-facto recognition of Israel's right as a country from one of the most Islamic of States... I suspect, however that they will wish the internationally recognised borders before formerly recognising Israel.
This will always be the stumbling block... Israel has no intention of giving back the entire West Bank, and the Golam Heights was annexed.
Syria however has stated for years it will forgo its claim on the heights if the rest of the occupied territories were returned. Until that time, it maintains its claim.
Where did you see that? l can find no such declaration, in fact, Syria was talking about an Israeli pull-out at this year's Arab Summit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rat Faced
Here's an interesting read .. MEI Perspective.
All I can add was the brutal picutres of children being dragged from thier homes it was sicking while watching the news last night .:(
Maybe the parents should have relieved them of such brutality by leaving.Quote:
Originally Posted by peat moss
The thing is..this will not appease Islamic extremists.
Or Jewish extremists.Quote:
Originally Posted by Busyman
All true, but is way past time they got out of the occupied territories. They've no right to them. i wish they would give back all the land.Quote:
Originally Posted by whypikonme
Better than shooting them, which is what would have happened if they'd been Palestinians.. :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Busyman
An American impying that Iran isnt run by Islamic extremists.. Go Figure..
I got taught that at school... when the Golan Heights were current affairs instead of History :PQuote:
Originally Posted by whypikonme
I did say that they would only give up the claim if Israel went back to its pre-1967 borders in total... that wont happen; Syria knows it wont happen and so the claim is, rightfully, kept by Syria.
Bad writing on my part.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rat Faced
I'm saying that Israel leaving the Gaza strip won't appease Islamic extremists.
I even wonder if the whole West Bank and Golan Heights were evacuated would it appease them.
Once again I agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by ruthie
Further that the Europeans give the land back to the native Americans, Australians, Africans, New Zealanders and all of the rest they took it from.
In fact, let's everyone give the land back to it's indigenous population. At the same time removing all of the technology, investment and infrastructure we imposed on their way of life. It's the only reasonable way to go.
They are, arent they? (The Israeli's that is)Quote:
Originally Posted by JPaul
@ Busyman
Withdrawing from Gaza is great, however to do it at the same time as announcing more settlements in the West Bank as has been done, seems a little mental.
All the good that withdrawing from Gaza did, has been wiped out at a stroke..
Face it,
IMHO the Israeli government doesnt want peace with its neighbours.. that would entail the loss of all those American Dollars that keep the place going.
They will bow to pressure on one front and delibratly create problems to keep the staus quo on another.
Edited:
To add that it was IMHO, and not a fact..
I have no idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rat Faced
I don't know who the indigenous population of the region is / was.
They werent the Jewish people were they?
Didnt the Jews invade the people already there when they escaped from Egypt to "The Promised Land"?
*reminds everyone that RF isnt a Christian and hasnt read the short story collection that Christians/Jews all rave about...
Reminds everyone that RF is going thro' his bitter and twisted phase and that being Jewish, or Muslim, or Christian or anything else is a religious thing and has nothing to do with who the indigenous population is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rat Faced
It is when you are talking in the context of who settled the place first, as the Jews are considered a race, as well as a religion, and they settled everywhere they ended up, they have no historical 'starting place'.Quote:
Originally Posted by JPaul
I didn't know it was required to be Christian to read that book. :blink:Quote:
Originally Posted by Rat Faced
I don't have any books near me, I am using a public computer(as i still don't have an ISP of my own) but i would say off hand that after the deluge there existed three "root families" or "root races" that sprung from shem, ham, and japheth. the shem seed would later become refined into the semitic(jewish) people, the ham seed were connected to egypt(because egypt was known as the land of the sons of ham), and the japheth seed is probably the progenitor of modern day russians, chinese, and to a smaller extent the rest of the non-african world. now skipping way ahead, ahraham was born in modern day iraq, and he was a descendant of shem. the family moved around, landing in egypt(i think because of a famine). then they came up out of egypt and displaced the people that were there, like the hittites, the jebusites, ect...
edit:some corrections
As Israeli forces removed residents from the last Jewish settlement still to be cleared in the Gaza Strip yesterday, Ariel Sharon sought to win back support from the Israeli right by promising continued expansion of Israel's West Bank colonies and no more unilateral pullouts.
The prime minister's remarks came as troops cleared Netzarim settlement, which Mr Sharon famously declared three years ago was as much part of Israel as Tel Aviv.
Yesterday, security forces removed the settlement's 120 families amid tears and fury but no physical resistance, completing the evacuation of all 21 Jewish settlements in the Gaza Strip in less than a week. The military originally said it would take three times as long.
Embittered Netzarim residents directed their ire at Mr Sharon for going back on his word. In an attempt to reassure the Israeli right, the prime minister told the Jerusalem Post that he will continue expanding Jewish settlements in the West Bank, which are home to about 400,000 people. "There will be building in the settlement blocks," he said. "Each government since 1967, right, left and national unity, has seen strategic importance in specific areas [in the occupied territories] I will build."
The newspaper said Mr Sharon specifically mentioned further construction in Ma'ale Adumim settlement, designed to link it to Jerusalem despite Washington's objections. He said that Ariel settlement, in the heart of the West Bank, would be annexed as "a part of Israel for ever". The prime minister also said there would be no further unilateral withdrawals.
Source.
It seems we have nothing to worry about here, the solution has already been worked out.
The Middle East has been in constant turmoil for decades. Many who are following world news wonder what will happen next, and what the final outcome will be. Yet very few realize that Bible prophecy explains in advance the earthshaking events that will lead to greater disasters in the region—and ultimately to World War III!
The Bible outlines end-time events leading up to Jesus Christ’s return. What happens in the Middle East, as His return draws near, will affect your life and the lives of everyone on earth. Understanding those events will help you to take action for your family’s welfare. You can escape the prophesied disasters and judgments (Luke 21:36) upon a warring and God-defying world.
The Middle East seems to bring the world a constant stream of bad news. Bible prophecy shows that this bad news will continue until Jesus Christ’s return. But once the world survives "Armageddon" in the Middle East, a time of good news will follow. Jerusalem will then live up to its name: "City of Peace."
A Millennium of peace and prosperity is coming, under the rulership of the Messiah. As King of kings, Jesus Christ will rule the earth from Jerusalem with justice and righteousness, and all nations on earth will learn a new way of life—the way to peace.
The Middle East in Prophecy.
So, all we need now is the Messiah, anyone heard when that might be?
I laugh at the writers interpretation of the phrophesies...
The only country that can be said to be a Political, Military and Economic giant is the USA, and yet they say its the EU... which isnt even a country. :blink:
Ergo:
The USA is the home of the Beast; the False Prophet, the Anti-Christ... my bet would still be that its GW Bush... except I'm not a Christian and dont believe in an Anti-Christ...
I just think he's an evil bastard ;)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rat Faced
May I join you for a chuckle? :shifty:
I thought one of the big complaints about Europe is that we spend so little on military things (wasting our money on hippy things like social benefits). The US spends more than the next 20 countries put together. Where is this military super power whilst these other armies are careering around the globe. I think it would be fair to say that the US is also a Northern country.
PS
On topic, I hope things work out for the Palestinians and Israelis on the peace process and that those that want peace actually get an opportunity to build something lasting.
I fear, however, that the sorting out of the West Bank will be a tad more problematical.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JPaul
No wait, I've got a better one Jim.
How about we invent a time machine that works. Then we kill all the weak stragglers, the poor saps who weren't clever enough to conjure up such a scheme, leaving only a few hundred humans to put in the time machine. Then we travel back in time to the age of the cavemen and such. Over a period of 50 years or so, we teach them the why it's important to "own land". Because there were fewer inhabitants back then, it would actually be possible and practical to chop up the earth amongst ourselves and be forever committed to those parcels, which we "own". Every family gets a parcel, and if the family grows above 6 members, someone must die. else the parcel would get crowded and we are back to the present muddle.
..
I, for one, was looking closely at the acceptance of the European Constitution. Too bad it didn't work out.....for now. :shifty:Quote:
Originally Posted by Rat Faced
The acceptance would have given Europe, as a unit, more economic might than the US. From there, military and political might ain't far behind.
Economically: The constitution only brought all the existing treaties together, no change.
Militarily: Most of the EU are in NATO, so no need really. Plus we already have the mechanics in the ARRC, so we could do it overnight if we wanted to :P
Politically: We're all far too diverse to agree on the colour of Milk, ranging from VERY Socialist to VERY Nationalist. Hell, you should see some of the stupid things proposed. Politically, the EU is the perfect vehicle to keep bloody stupid politicians busy, and ineffective... bit like Congress ;)
What makes you think other people want the same sort of mentalist "military might" that the USA wants. It's a huge drain on your resources which could be spent on something like a welfare state.Quote:
Originally Posted by Busyman
As to "political might" what do you mean by that. The only thing I can think of is the ability to impose your own political views on other people (because internally "political might" makes little sense).
So what you are left with is a huge military machine, which enables you to impose your political views on other countries, whilst at the same time being unable to provide things like free medical cover for your own people ... oh right, sorry over to you.
I never gave it thought as to what "other people want". What gave you that impression? The "too bad" comment was CaptainObvious tongue and cheek.Quote:
Originally Posted by JPaul
Uniformity as one unit, in dealing with other countries. If a decision is made, it's made by Europe and not splintered.Quote:
Originally Posted by JPaul
Mmmk. That's for the European countries to decide and they seem to have made a decision......for the most part.Quote:
Originally Posted by JPaul
Where'd you get the "impose your political views" from? That happens everyday in every country. :blink: Who said you had to impose anything? :1eye:
edit: to add to that....other caveats aside, who the hell doesn't want a strong military? I personally don't like a strong military at the expense of other things. However, any military is budgeted against those "other things".....even good ole Britain's fighter jets. :dry:
What the feck is "tongue and cheek".
I'd love to read the rest, but that gave me a bad case of "why bother".
Where exactly does this selective determination of who actually has the right to thus and such land come from?
Hell, none of us lives on land we can claim according to any or every standard which can be laid... :dry:
If some entity with a rooting interest in Palestinian dominance cares to, let them provide entree to whatever is necessary for them to take the land by force, just like we've done for Israel.
What the fuck did you make comment in the first place for? :blink:Quote:
Originally Posted by JPaul
The above was a dumbass question. I didn't say "other people wanted the military might." You did.Quote:
Originally Posted by JPaul
I also didn't make the allusion "they" wanted anything like the US.
Maybe you can have a point the next time you post.
Careful kev, that can be construed as anti-semetic.Quote:
Originally Posted by j2k4
Mentioning that Israel has the land by right of arms, without the necessary right of God... :rolleyes:
That implies that Israel is the agressor..can't have that now :P
Or anti-semitic, which is if anything worse.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rat Faced
No I didn't, I enquired as to why you thought they might.Quote:
Originally Posted by Busyman
"What makes you think other people want the same sort of mentalist "military might" that the USA wants."
The clue is in the words and the order in which they are organised. I had assumed you knew how that worked.
Bullshit.Quote:
Originally Posted by JPaul
You made assumptions that were wrong.
Nice try to save it though. :lol: :lol: :lol:
The quotes and the make up of the sentence after the word "military".....screwed it up for ya.
Still though, I never said I thought they might have wanted anything.
I have not been J'ismed. :snooty:
The sad thing is that you probably believe that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Busyman
You suggested that becoming more like the USA was something that the EU may wish to do.
It really isn't.
Most of us find your politics, your "I'm alright Jack" attitude and your cultural / political imperialism to be an anachronism. It is the equivelant of the troglodyte in the playground dominating the other children because of his superior physical strength.
We look at you and it saddens us, to see large sections of your people unable to get basic healthcare, because the money is being spent on weapons. We marvel at the fact that you see Hollywood films as being culturally significant. We are appalled that your sportsmen find it easier to get an education than people who are intellectually capable. They can have their education paid for them, on the basis that they are good at throwing a ball. Whilst someone else, who is just good at thinking has to get a low paid job, because their parents cannot afford it.
It really is a fecked up system and it is not something that the EU aspires to.
:01: :01: :01:Quote:
Originally Posted by JPaul
On the plus side though... the US makes much better burgers than us. We really must get the recipe.. :unsure: