watching some thing on tv about this noob who got jailed for denying the holocaust in austria. wtf is that?
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watching some thing on tv about this noob who got jailed for denying the holocaust in austria. wtf is that?
It was about 1989, he made some speeches where he said it didn't happen. Chap was an author.
He now says that he accepts that the holocaust took place.
He got 3 years.
I can't make up my mind as to what is more asinine, the inability to accept the holocaust happened, or the law that put this man behind bars.
You think laws against this type of thing are utterly stupid, really.Quote:
Originally Posted by vidcc
You think people should be jailed for free speech, reallyQuote:
Originally Posted by JPaul
What a dumb law.:ermm:
I think people should be jailed for innovative stupidity, really.Quote:
Originally Posted by vidcc
Give them a microphone, by all means, but yeah...put 'em in jail.
I have to agree, the law is pretty stupid.
Yes, obviously.Quote:
Originally Posted by vidcc
I support Abu Hamza being jailed and I think Nick Fuckwit the head of the BNP should also be jailed for what he said (he's being re-tried apparently).
Free speech yes, consequences also yes. Society has a right to protect itself from hatemongers and those who would cause the suffering of others by their words and what their words lead to.
In that case he should be jailed for inciting violence or some other crime. Jailing him for what he believes is as stupid as believing it in the first place.
hamza was jailed for incitement to commit murder which i think is fair enough. Griffin hasn't been jailed and is up for incitement to commit racial hatred, which is a bit more shaky imo and i suppose it is vaguely comparable to what irving did if he claimed the jews made up the holocaust for some purpose (I haven't really followed this story).
Just claiming the holocaust didn't happen wouldn't be a problem at all in this country would it?
Which country?
After looking, it is apparently a crime in Austria, France, Germany, Israel, Belgium, Poland, Lithuania and Switzerland.
It's illegal in Austria.
They are understandbly touchy about the subject and presumably did not wish the survivors and the relatives of those murdered to be put thro' any more than they had already suffered.
I think their rights outweigh his right to spout hate and bile.
EDIT - It was Austria.
He's also been fined in Germany, for publicly insisting the Nazi gas chambers at Auschwitz were a hoax.
Quote:
I think their rights outweigh his right to spout hate and bile.
rights?
disagreed.
the guy is a cawk, but being jailed for saying something stupid is wrong IMO
Agreed, it's an opinion thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by GepperRankins
I think if someone stands up in public and says certain things, then they should be jailed. I don't think that people can be allowed to say anything they want. Well they can, but society can say "no, that's beyond the pale" and do something about it.
laughed and pointed at, ja.
jailing someone is no longer an *opinion thing, it's an infringement of his rights.
*opinion, as in my opinion verse his opinion, even if one opinion does contradict the facts
Do you think it's ok for a christian to be jailed in a "non christain" country ?
I don't understand what you mean there.Quote:
Originally Posted by GepperRankins
Again, I don't really understand the question.Quote:
Originally Posted by vidcc
People get jailed if they are convicted of an offence in a country and the sentence is a period of incarceration. What has Christianity, or any other religion got to do with it.
i think i forgot half way through typing.Quote:
Originally Posted by JPaul
well, regardless of facts and if people take offence, the law shouldn't get involved in peoples opinions
I think that we are not getting the full story.
"I think that holocaust was a vast conspiracy" is an opinion (although uninformed), and not a jailable offense.
"The holocaust is a lie by the Jews, who must be driven into the sea" is an opinion which encites violence and is therefore illegal.
People can have whatever opinion they want, it's when they express those opinion and effect other people's lives that the law takes an interest.Quote:
Originally Posted by GepperRankins
Is a rally in the middle of London, where the speakers express their opinion that all green people are useless cunts and should be thrown out of the country OK.
I for one want the law to intervene.
You are to be congratulated on your knowledge of Austrian law, I am well impressed.Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbes
right.Quote:
Originally Posted by JPaul
One is an opinion. fine. They are cunts
The second is an encitement to violence. They should be thrown out. Wrong.
Austrian law is not irrelvant.Quote:
Originally Posted by JPaul
We must decide whether ones opinion that the holocaustis a fraud is justifiable to deem jail time, versus freedom of speech.
That is an "ends versus the means" case, which you have stated is completely wrong.
The fulcrum is whether the opinion is then promoted as a reason for violence.
Jailtime should NEVER be given for an opinion, but can be warranted because it encourages people to act violently against others.
I'm really not sure that that's right. As far as I can tell, it is the opinion that is the crime, rather than any violence or hatred it may incite.Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbes
Agreed, Austrian law is not irrelevant, as that's where he was convicted and sentenced.Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbes
As I understand it, it's publicly denying the holocaust which is the offence.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skillian
So you are both wrong, but hobbes is wronger than you.
:01:
Well, the rule is moronic.Quote:
Originally Posted by JPaul
Can there be any disagreemnet to that?
Should I be jailed when I say that the US moon landing was a government hoax.
No, that is just my idiotic opinion.
Everone has the right to be an idioit. Being an idiot should not make one a criminal.
We are discussing the merit of the law. The law is shit if an uniformed opinion is a jailable offense.
The laws has merit if, by his expressed opinion, he is enciting harm to others.
I would never tolerate such a suppresive government.Quote:
Originally Posted by JPaul
Laws should be driven by individual rights, not popularity.
Such suppression of opinion is totalitarian.
I enjoy the way you state that "the ends never justify the means" in one context (torture), then approve of it in another. Very convenient.
Fuck that.
i see your point now.Quote:
Originally Posted by JPaul
i was about to say people will analyse what people say, then i realised "nope, most people are stupid".
so uh, yeah. i realised it is possible, and fairly easy to brainwash everyday people :dabs:
How many people do you think would be deeply hurt by that opinion being expressed.Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbes
How many people who survived the .... never mind, I've already posted that. Either you've read it and ignored it, or not read it. I'm cool either way.
I think I'll go and pish on someone's grave, what do their friends and relatives care. The person is dead anyway.
Luckily you live in USA, so Austrian law is not a problemQuote:
Originally Posted by hobbes
Just covering your edit.Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbes
What in the name of fuck is that supposed to mean.
It just seems to me to be silly to specify the event.
Would we need seperate laws for denying Sept. 11th, Hiroshima, Red Square or other sensitive tragedies? Or do a certain number of people have to die before it gets its own law?
[QUOTE=JPaul]How many people do you think would be deeply hurt by that opinion being expressed.Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbes
How many people who survived the .... never mind, I've already posted that. Either you've read it and ignored it, or not read it. I'm cool either way.
Lots of things cause emotional scars but are not jailable offenses.
Do you have anything other than phish to offer.
On one hand the ends never justify the means and on any=other they do.
Quit talking phish.
think.Quote:
Originally Posted by JPaul
Torutue is never justified
But a law that suppressed freedom of speech is, because emotions may be hurt.
FTW?
The systematic attempted genocide of Jews, over several years, is hardly specifying "the event".Quote:
Originally Posted by Skillian
Sorry if you think it's a numbers thing. 6,000,000 men, women and children chosen because of their religion and for the most part civilian and of no military significance, sort of justifies it for me.
Good post.:01:Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbes
I would think that someone saying that America didn't use blacks for slave labor is an idiot but I would think it dumb as hell to jail him/her for it and I'm black. :ermm:
I do like how the forum helps bring out what people think on here and how some people show how moronic they are regardless of their sentence structure.:happy:
Luckily the Austrians are the ones jailing their ill-informed citizens and conspiracy theorists. We have our own shit like the Patriot Act.