A Watercooling Test

The great debate raging in watercooling circles these days concerns the relative advantage of "high-flow" (typified by DangerDen, Swiftech, et al, using 1/2" ID tubing) vs. "low-flow" or "small bore" (exemplified by Aqua Computer, using 6-8mm tubing).

I have been partial to the big-bore equipment (primarily due to price and availability issues) and have been much pleased with the performance achieved.
There is no denying however that plumbing 3/4" tubing can be a challenge due to bend radius constraints and avoidance of 90deg. fittings (a definite no-no for high flow performance, yet a total non-issue for the low flow camp).

I've decided to perform a homebrew, totally non-scientific experiment on Sprocket to get some first hand experience with the merits of the two approaches.

Arriving Wednesday is a box of 3/8" ID Tygon tubing, a selection of 3/8" barbs and a MCP355 pump. I also have a modded top cover for the pump which allows for better inlet positioning and (supposedly) increased flow.

Stage 1 of the test will consist of replacing the 1/2" barbs on the CPU/GPU blocks and radiator with 3/8" versions and running with the high output MCP655 pump already installed.
Stage 2 will replace the pump with the smaller, less powerful, native 3/8" 355 unit ( which is the rev.2, 18w model, BTW).
Stage 3 will replace the pump cover with the modded version and also introduce 90deg fittings wherever they will simplify/streamline tube routing.
Stages 2 and 3 may be combined depending on difficulty of installation/amount of modding necessary...

I do not have (nor am I interested in obtaining) the proper test equipment to elevate this beyond simple anecdotal evidence, so my results will be scientifically debatable, however I don't see why they wouldn't be an acceptable indication of the differences between the two approaches.

As always, I'll keep you posted.

:) Eagerly anticipate those results.

oh nice another experiment. i also want to see those results. with all your research im sure you save us all thousands :)

Christ.....another experiment.....and I still haven't mustered up the energy
to go purchase/assemble/post results of my TJ07,
which has been the plan for, what, a month or so? :cry:

How in the world do you do it?

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Originally Posted by fkdup74

Christ.....another experiment.....and I still haven't mustered up the energy
to go purchase/assemble/post results of my TJ07,
which has been the plan for, what, a month or so? :cry:

How in the world do you do it?

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heh, hey if you makes you feel better it took me close to a year to build my experiment, aka a decent computer. so one month is nothing, id equate it to thoughtful planning :)

I'm still waiting on that TJ07 buiild as I might be interested in that case for later.
Get busy please.

My interest in smaller bore loops is tied to the Apple G5 case build.
Physically, the case is just not capable of supporting a large bore system and before I drop a bunch of cash on parts I'd like to get a feel for how they might perform.

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Originally Posted by ApacNTS

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fkdup74

Christ.....another experiment.....and I still haven't mustered up the energy
to go purchase/assemble/post results of my TJ07,
which has been the plan for, what, a month or so? :cry:

How in the world do you do it?

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heh, hey if you makes you feel better it took me close to a year to build my experiment, aka a decent computer. so one month is nothing, id equate it to thoughtful planning :)

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Yeah, but this is just a case, not a whole PC. :(
(Well, not entirely true....I do want to get another mobo w/PCI-E and a GFX card.)
But I'm kind of not liking the gfx card options atm...
The only ones that seem worthy of consideration are the 7800-7900 or x1800-x1900 flavors,
and that means putting up some big bucks.

And I still need to decide on wether I want a water loop or air cooling.
I did buy some class air cooling from clocker, but I still have the gpu to think about.
The Zalman gpu cooler isn't living up to my expectations.
May have to go water for the gpu, and if I do...why not the cpu as well?
I just don't really know atm. :frusty:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fkdup74

The Zalman gpu cooler isn't living up to my expectations.
May have to go water for the gpu, and if I do...why not the cpu as well?

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Because your CPU may not significantly benefit from watercooling and a GPU-only loop would be smaller (thus, cheaper).

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Originally Posted by clocker

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fkdup74

The Zalman gpu cooler isn't living up to my expectations.
May have to go water for the gpu, and if I do...why not the cpu as well?

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Because your CPU may not significantly benefit from watercooling and a GPU-only loop would be smaller (thus, cheaper).

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Why do you always have to make such a good freakin' point? :angry: :P

It's probably true. I have a Venice, and it runs pretty cool. Damn.
You're running me out of excuses ffs. :(

god damn clocker, god damn.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fkdup74

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ApacNTS

heh, hey if you makes you feel better it took me close to a year to build my experiment, aka a decent computer. so one month is nothing, id equate it to thoughtful planning :)

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Yeah, but this is just a case, not a whole PC. :(
(Well, not entirely true....I do want to get another mobo w/PCI-E and a GFX card.)
But I'm kind of not liking the gfx card options atm...
The only ones that seem worthy of consideration are the 7800-7900 or x1800-x1900 flavors,
and that means putting up some big bucks.

And I still need to decide on wether I want a water loop or air cooling.
I did buy some class air cooling from clocker, but I still have the gpu to think about.
The Zalman gpu cooler isn't living up to my expectations.
May have to go water for the gpu, and if I do...why not the cpu as well?
I just don't really know atm. :frusty:

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As far as video cards go, im trying to get the 7900gt, that's a sitituation all to itself, seems im always conveintly at work and they sell out. maybe i'll get lucky soon.

Clocker has some great toys, somewhere on this forum are probably the results from the test he ran with your newly acquired toys. he also has me considering a water loop in the event that this case runs hot, im not as much worried about the cpu as the gpu, that's where a great majority of the heat would most likely come from in my system.

OK, here is what the new pump looks like...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7...ker/Laing3.jpg
Photo from FrozenCPU but not hotlinked.
It's surprisingly powerful and very compact...only about 2 1/2" square.
Within days of the initial release last year, folks had already started modifying it to increase output and now there are several premade tops available which do just that.
Here's the version I just got...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7...ker/Laing2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7...ker/Laing1.jpg
Moving the plug to the original inlet channel and using a larger bore barb centered over the impellor increases flow approx. 20% (IIRC).

I plan on modding this piece by building the reservoir directly onto the center inlet port, eliminating two barbs and saving space in the bargain.

As soon as the DangerDen order arrives I can begin more detailed planning.

ohhhh i like it! heh u never stop thinking about how you could squeeze a little more performance out of anything. look forward to the next set of updates :)

off topic: never..ever have newegg send a check to you fedex, it is the worst thing in the world, 4days and no check, supposed to be here in 3, cant buy my gpu because of it :(

This is not so much about "squeezing extra performance" as it is exploring different approaches.
Small-bore, low flow systems would make installation much simpler and some of the equipment (specifically the German engineered AquaComputer stuff) is undeniably sexy.

I have an analogy drawn from my youth (*ramble alert*)...
In the early 70's (1970's NOT 1870's...) I roadraced motorcycles.
At the time, the Kawasaki 900 was the big dog in motorcycling yet at most tracks (with the exception of Daytona and maybe Brainerd) the Yamaha RD350 could not only keep up but frequently beat it's much more powerful opponent. Smaller and nimbler was more effective in the real world than big horsepower.
I suspect that this might be also true in watercooling. (*ramble over*)

Right now Sprocket has been running for about two hours.
I've just been puttering around in Firefox and she's also running Prime95 (I've been Priming almost constantly in preparation for the switch...just getting an idea of my max temps).
With a room ambient of @ 13-15C (I have the patio doors open and am basking in the early spring balminess :happy: ) my CPU temp has stabilized at 33C.
The highest I've seen lately is 38C.
Stop Prime and the CPU drops almost instantly (all a64 chip owners will recognize this behaviour) to 21-22C.
In other words, my max temp is better than most people's idle temp.
I have lots of horsepower that really isn't doing me any good.

I'm guessing that my CPU temps are going to increase a few degrees (maybe as much as 5C...) and the GPU will remain the same.
My Storm CPU block utilizes the "jet impingement" design which is pretty restrictive and benefits from high flow. Replacing this with the less restrictive (but visually similar) Apogee block might be beneficial, we'll see how it goes.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7...r/newstuff.jpg
Here is Sprocket's tribute for the month.
She used to demand nubile virgins but demand far outstripped supply, so now she's content with ravaging my wallet.
Not pictured (mainly because they haven't arrived yet) are the Neptune GPU waterblock (which may never show up) and the CoolFontz 20x4 LCD display.

My difficulties with StasisThermal (detailed here) are really screwing up my timetable. If it comes before Wednesday I can proceed as planned, if not, I don't know.

Either way, tomorrow I install the OS and start grabbing screenshots.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7...r/blackout.jpg
This is what the 64bit Pro "trial version" does to over half of my applications...very irritating.
Presumably the full (well, OEM really) version lifts this sort of restriction....

wow that sucks, your patience are unbelievable. read that thread and thought how id probably gone with the "refund" option. hope u get it wednesday, and hope u also give your thoughts about windxp 64 bit, ive read varying thoughts, some saying the compatibility with less bit programs makes the transition to 64 bit worthless.

if all goes well tuesday i may actually be able to boot up my own system. cant wait for your screenies man. best part of the whole thing. btw i still envy your wiring configuration, i tried to make mine neat and tidy, but alas sprocket is a goddess to me.

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Originally Posted by ApacNTS

... but alas sprocket is a goddess to me.

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You are only feeding her sickness.

Much happened yesterday...
- I recieved a Click-n-Ship notification for the Neptune waterblock...might actually have it by Wed.
-the CrystalFontz display arrived...looks very cool, have NO idea what to do with it. Yet.
-When I sold the Lian-li case a few weeks ago I bundled the broken window panel and the replacement non-windowed panel into the deal. Since then I have repaired the window for the new owner in exchange for the solid panel, so I now have a nice large expanse of black anodized aluminum to play with.
New front bezel is what I'm thinking. I can easily dispense with the two fan controllers currently mounted as none of the Aerocool fans will even spin up at less than full voltage- I suspect the LEDs are the cause. Anyway, don't need em.
A nice, solid, black front panel to replace the mesh might look very nice, methinks...

Edit:
As I suspected (well, mostly hoped) the full version of XP64 works like normal...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7...ker/goodid.jpg
Decided to really push my luck and installed the OS without backing down the clock...no problems so far.

After discusion with some gurus I've decided to alter my approach.
My current Storm CPU block is relatively restrictive, the jet impingment design requires quite a bit of pressure to work effectively.
Moving to a lower flow system will only highlight this (already well known) fact and I see no reason to reinvent the wheel here, so the CPU block is being replaced with the freer flowing Apogee, which should work better with the loop.

Also, I'm just lazy.
Basically, I'm just eliminating the gradual morph from the extant loop to the new, jumping in with both feet as it were.
With any luck I should have both new waterblocks in hand by this weekend (remember, I'm still waiting for the replacement Neptune GPU block to arrive) and can commence installation.
With the less restrictive Apogee in place and the MCP355 modified for higher flow, I'm hoping to duplicate the current loop's performance with a cleaner, less cluttered appearance.

Surprisingly, I'm still getting inquiries about all the waterstuff I was selling off last month.
If I can move out a few more pieces there's this other new part I'm considering...but we'll see how it goes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by clocker

With the less restrictive Apogee in place...

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I was lookin at those the other day, along with a few others.
What's your take on the Apogees? Good? Bad? Ugly?

I also had a look at some Vantec blocks, and quickly decided against them.
The fittings are shit.

newegg linkage

A few years back I was working in a machine shop for an injection molding operation.
Some of the tooling had water fittings like those on the Vantecs.
One word: leaks.
And I wouldn't be bothered to change fittings. Laziness. :happy:

Plus, all I wanted were the blocks. Not the whole kit.

[QUOTE=fkdup74]

Quote:

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Originally Posted by clocker

What's your take on the Apogees? Good? Bad? Ugly?

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Dunno yet.
Reviewers have been kind to both designs with the Storm coming out slightly ahead if matched with the proper pump.
My concern is with flow restriction and the Apogee is undeniably freer flowing, hence the switch.
I can afford to give up a degree or two (or 10, really) and will do so gladly if the loop can be made more elegant.
That's really the crux of this experiment...sacrificing a bit of performance in exchange for looks.

Can you say hooray!!?
NM, I'll do it for you.

The last of the parts for my loop redesign finally arrived.
The replacement Neptune GPU block and a very cool reservoir showed up late Saturday.
Unfortunately, due to a miscommunication I wasn't aware they had come till just this morning, meaning that I lost my day off and won't be able to start working again till Wednesday.
Integrating the reservoir into the loop may be tricky and require some extra time/modification (in fact, right now it looks well nigh impossible) but I have two days to come up with a solution and it's not critical it be installed at all, so it may join my collection of interesting but not yet integrated parts.

Seems like I'm back on track again....

Hooray!!

Miscommuncation? Sounds to me that you really wanted the day off. ;)

Well, it was Easter and I had eggs to search for....

Well now.

At last, I finally have all the parts sitting before me and not one ounce of desire to actually play with them.

Work has been a total clusterfuck this last month...two people have left the shop so now there are only three of us carrying the load. It is sooo tiring dealing with the unrelenting pushiness and stupidity of the general public...every PC problem is a matter of utmost importance and every delay is an excuse to raise hell. The only thing that keeps me going is knowing that my FUF (*Fuck You Fund*) is healthy enough that I could walk away at any time (although I am sorely tempted to dip into it and get the Dell 2405 I lust after...so far I've resisted).
Anyway, I've rearranged my schedule and now have two consecutive days off- Sunday and Monday.
This should make working on Sprocket much easier as I can start a project without having to complete it in just one afternoon (I do have "real life" stuff like cleaning, laundry, shopping, etc. that must be done as well, you know)...what a luxury.

So, today I'm going to begin preparing the new parts for installation (I might even leak test outside the case for a change!) and do the swap over the course of my next "weekend".
Along with the hardware changes there are also some cosmetic case improvements I want to make and having two days off in a row should make it possible to comfortably achieve it all.

K then...back to Hardware World stuff. (/bitch session)

So far, I'm lovin' 64bit XP...there have been some measurable performance gains (although Aquamark3 refuses to run at all so video performance is unmeasured as yet- I cannot bear to sit through 3DMark and watch it crawl) and stability has been excellent.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7.../mini-run1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7...er/winrar5.jpg
(WinRAR benchmark test...)

Because SMART info is not accessable through a RAID array I reinstalled without the array and have been monitoring the Raptor temps...they are fine, so I'll be reinstalling again later today and going back to the snappy performance that RAID provides.

Just thought I'd give ya'll a heads up about what's going on.

Pity you couldn't reach 3GHz. ;)

I screwed up my calculations.:stars:
Damnit.

She's actually booted to the desktop at 3.3 GHz, but not at all stable.
This is probably due to my desire not to exceed 1.6v vcore.
Were I more adventurous I could prolly run 3.1 or so daily but don't see the point.
2.8-2.9 GHz whilst RAIDed seems like a sweet spot temp/stability-wise.

I've pretty much decided to hang on to this setup for a while...AM2 doesn't look too promising and Conroe would be too expensive, so I'm wary of trashing the CPU- she's a real sweetie for only $200.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by clocker

I've pretty much decided to hang on to this setup for a while...

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:O

pics? must see the new sprocket in all her glory :)

The "new" Sprocket has not yet escaped gestation.
The parts are under construction/assembly/modification and I'm pondering the inclusion of the new (very cool) reservoir or whether to take the easy way out and simply keep the already installed (and quite practical) Swiftec minirez in place.

Pictures will follow.
Currently I am trying to get an Coolfontz 4x20 LCD to work...not having much luck as yet, dunno whether it's a problem working in the x64 environment or just something I'm failing to do properly.
Probably the latter.

Here's what's going on...
The new DDC pump with the high flow top installed...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v78/clocker/ddc.jpg
You can see that this top allows the intake to be fed directly into the impellor, bypassing the restrictive standard intake channel. Pump output increases nearly 30% with this mod alone.
Next is the new reservoir...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7...ker/finned.jpg
About 10" tall and 3" in diameter, this is heavily finned aluminum (anodized to prevent galvanic corrosion) and sexy as hell IMO.

Now, what I'm thinking of doing is this...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7...ker/ddcrez.jpg
Integrating the reservoir and the pump, eliminating two barbs and hose connections and greatly simplifying the loop in general. It may be possible to mount this internally- I can't really tell as yet.
The alternative would be to place it outside the case on the backplane.
The first option is neater but the second may be easier.

I have to strip out the current loop to get an idea of what might work the best...that should happen Sunday.

Decisions, decisions.

Well, at last the new loop is in place.
I spent a goodly amount of time trying to incorporate the large finned reservoir but alas, 'twas not to be. It could have been done but just wasn't worth the effort as the currently installed Swiftech mini-rez fits so well.
It will join the pile of parts (starting to grow again after my last big sell-off) that may/may not ever get used.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7.../Radiical5.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7.../Radiical4.jpg
The much anticipated Jing-Ting Chipforce heatpipe cooler seems to be somewhat of a bust*. NB temps have risen from @27c to 40c but I had to move the vid card back down to PCIe slot#1 and that meant the NB waterblock had to go anyway, so it fits the bill, if only temporarily. The search for a good NB solution that fits under the vid card will continue.
CPU/GPU temps remain identical to the old loop- 22c/31c...not too shabby.

The new MCP355 pump with the Radiical top is performing superbly- flow is noticably higher than the old loop and there is no more annoying whine.

Now we're almost ready for this week's real upgrade.:whistling

*Well, silly me. I just couldn't believe that this cooler was as crappy as it first seemed and I was right. My NB fan header is apparently dead so the fan was not working. Moving to a different outlet has changed the temps dramatically. NB now running in the low 30's.
Much better.