A message to the americans:

Ok so, 15 years ago the United States won the cold war against the USSR.
Since that, no one seems to need to proove anything as one ideologie has been either accepted or imposed to the whole world. So no more apollo, no more soyouz to show the world what the people of a country are capable to accomplish.
So what do we do know? Now that the world is governrened by duches. Now that we don't look foward for fights and conquest, but at our bills and cars, where is the american pionner spirit? When do we start thinking about settling on mars or venus? It is my feeling that the human destiny isn't only about pleasing your wives and produce psp to kill the time playing with it. Or maybe it's just me. When do we free ourselves and start to have faith in our future, in what we can accomplish, instead of letting people in their misery having faith in those fake gods because they are basically affraid of life.
Americans wanted the world working by their rules, they have got it. What are they going to do with it? I Hope you'll get the spirit of my point and won't feel attacked, I know you like your country, and I too think it's great in many ways.

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Originally Posted by leonidas

It is my feeling that the human destiny isn't only about pleasing your wives and produce psp to kill the time playing with it. Or maybe it's just me.

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Probably.
I'm not waiting for anyone (especially americans :snooty: ) to decide what the human destiny is going to be. I intend to take an active part in it.

By the way, maybe that's what they meant when they used the expression "free world" all the time?

well I planted some seeds in the front yard........if that's not optimistic I don't know what is

one ideology all over the world? i think earth is far from that.

..when the temperature on Venus drops to 20 degrees celsius and on Mars rises to 20 degrees celsius..then and only then will I be enticed to live on those distant planets....this is a bit too serious for the lounge..dont you think?

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Originally Posted by Guillaume

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Originally Posted by leonidas

It is my feeling that the human destiny isn't only about pleasing your wives and produce psp to kill the time playing with it. Or maybe it's just me.

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Probably.
I'm not waiting for anyone (especially americans :snooty: ) to decide what the human destiny is going to be. I intend to take an active part in it.

By the way, maybe that's what they meant when they used the expression "free world" all the time?

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really what do you do?

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Originally Posted by lee551

one ideology all over the world? i think earth is far from that.

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No it isn't

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Originally Posted by thewizeard

..when the temperature on Venus drops to 20 degrees celsius and on Mars rises to 20 degrees celsius..then and only then will I be enticed to live on those distant planets....

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I say wake up! & let's work on it

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Originally Posted by thewizeard

..when the temperature on Venus drops to 20 degrees celsius and on Mars rises to 20 degrees celsius..then and only then will I be enticed to live on those distant planets....this is a bit too serious for the lounge..dont you think?

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Well the USA are experts at causing global warming, so mars is looking viable :shifty:

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Originally Posted by leonidas

really what do you do?

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Trying to do my part on solving (some) of the problems on this world, before thinking of pionneering on another.

There is talk of global hegemony but I am not entirely convinced. If anything more countries are returning left of centre "social democrat" style Governments than before.

Look at GWs allies, both Spain and Italy have ejected the Conservatives and moved to the left - Britain arguably was already there so there was nowhere for the opposition to go.

S America has become more radical not less.

Russia - if it were not for the Soyuz craft the International Space Station would be in trouble. I am not sure what system the Russians are working to - I am not sure the Russians know either. :unsure: The Sicilian model?

EU: ESA has embarked on exploration both in partnership with NASA, as in the Titan mission, and singularly, as in Mars and Venus.

I think the rest of the world has pretty much a pick and mix view on the American model. Globalisation is an issue and big American corporations are involved. However, jobs moving to China affects Americans just as much as anybody else. It is not all one way traffic.

It is perhaps questionable, therefore, what was actually won after the cold war. Peace and stability? Whatever, it was it is not directly transferable into usable leverage (to use a rather nasty term).

/moved to The Drawing Room as the original post looked too serious for the lounge.
Didn't want it reduced to a spam-fest :)

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Originally Posted by vidcc

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Originally Posted by thewizeard

..when the temperature on Venus drops to 20 degrees Celsius and on Mars rises to 20 degrees celsius..then and only then will I be enticed to live on those distant planets....this is a bit too serious for the lounge..dont you think?

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Well the USA are experts at causing global warming, so mars is looking viable :shifty:

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..still leaves us in a mess over Venus ..

By trying to alter climates on other worlds, we might cause an imbalance in our solar system. That might be catastrophic for Earth. I do hear what you are saying though.. I think I will go and mend my fence..I have been meaning to repair it for so long now...

edit: ouch Chewie you caused me to fall from my stool..I thought I was still in the lounge :)

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Originally Posted by Guillaume

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Originally Posted by leonidas

really what do you do?

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Trying to do my part on solving (some) of the problems on this world, before thinking of pionneering on another.

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Well I guess we have a different philosophy.

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Originally Posted by Biggles

There is talk of global hegemony but I am not entirely convinced. If anything more countries are returning left of centre "social democrat" style Governments than before.

Look at GWs allies, both Spain and Italy have ejected the Conservatives and moved to the left - Britain arguably was already there so there was nowhere for the opposition to go.

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Yes some of them even call themselves socialists. But none of them is actually questioning capitalism.

/move thread back to lounge ?

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Ok so, 15 years ago the United States won the cold war against the USSR.
Since that, no one seems to need to proove anything as one ideologie has been either accepted or imposed to the whole world. So no more apollo, no more soyouz to show the world what the people of a country are capable to accomplish.
So what do we do know? Now that the world is governrened by duches. Now that we don't look foward for fights and conquest, but at our bills and cars, where is the american pionner spirit? When do we start thinking about settling on mars or venus? It is my feeling that the human destiny isn't only about pleasing your wives and produce psp to kill the time playing with it. Or maybe it's just me. When do we free ourselves and start to have faith in our future, in what we can accomplish, instead of letting people in their misery having faith in those fake gods because they are basically affraid of life.
Americans wanted the world working by their rules, they have got it. What are they going to do with it? I Hope you'll get the spirit of my point and won't feel attacked, I know you like your country, and I too think it's great in many ways.

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So we need conflict and hell to progress the human race?
Bush is planning a manned mission to the moon by 2015-2020, and later to mars.

Perhaps we should look to our own planet first though... :kyoto:

With a little luck, Bush, will man those missions personally.. There really isn't much he can do out there...but don't let him know...

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Perhaps we should look to our own planet first though... :kyoto:

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this is the way, and perhaps explore the spiritual as well as the physical :equally:

My point is one should act foward, and not stand by on a self depressive analisys. One should explore, give himself the chance to be surprised. I think that's what we are, and we should go for it. Life is too short for spending it thinking. The other planetes were just an example, I'm not saying we have to travel that far, many things can be done on earth too, but the point is to look always for something new and not looking how you can make something you already have better. That's what I wanted to point out quoting the cold war. During that period of time in the mind of some peole, was something more than just everyday life maters.

I think I won't be able to make you understand what is it about. That's after all something very personal.

The human body is too fragile to exist anywhere except Earth for any length of time. The manned Mars mission will be a disaster.

We should concentrate on transferring our consciousnesses into cyberspace, and get robots to do all the dangerous stuff :unsure:

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Originally Posted by leonidas

My point is one should act foward, and not stand by on a self depressive analisys. One should explore, give himself the chance to be surprised. I think that's what we are, and we should go for it. Life is too short for spending it thinking. The other planetes were just an example, I'm not saying we have to travel that far, many things can be done on earth too, but the point is to look always for something new and not looking how you can make something you already have better. That's what I wanted to point out quoting the cold war. During that period of time in the mind of some peole, was something more than just everyday life maters.

I think I won't be able to make you understand what is it about. That's after all something very personal.

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Please don't feel attacked, I think we all do hear what you are saying ..just adding to it not subtracting. Life is indeed short, but I feel, that thinking..is the most important quality that "we" possess.. and we should use that faculty to in the extreme... then when thought has reached it's logical conclusion...act!

No please, don't worry I'm not feeling attacked. I'm not trying to force anyone to get my point, that's why I say it's personal. I'm just interested in figuring out what is my point's value according to other people, and if some have something interesting to bring on that subject.
Off course we have to think to, that's what makes it so nice when thanks to the performing of thinking, you can express yourself and find ways to free yourself from invisible custodies. Everything is after all basically a mater of having a bit of all, measurement & variety are the keys. All I'm saying is I feell there is not enough action nowadays and that's bad. That pretending war against terrorism for instance is a joke. How could some even call that a war? muslims are not trying to convert us as much as I know. I'd rather say it's a police operation.

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Originally Posted by leonidas

All I'm saying is I feell there is not enough action nowadays and that's bad. That pretending war against terrorism for instance is a joke. How could some even call that a war? muslims are not trying to convert us as much as I know. I'd rather say it's a police operation.

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Pardon? :huh:

I don't think there is a war against terrorism because muslims are trying to convert people, I might be wrong but I'd put my last beer on it.

Playing it safe DanB.. I bet you wouldn't put your last joint on it ;)

Yes, call me stupid :)
What I wanted to point out, is that "war" isn't the appropriate word to define what is going on. Even if there is danger, it's not like there is like a big clash between two ideologies, and/or civilization.
This discussion is becoming hard as you seem afraid to focuse on what I wan't to proove. Don't worry I'm not bothering you again ;)

Isn't a war when two armies are fighting each other? [Bill Hicks]

All we've got at the moment is a powerful, resource hungry empire trying to impose it's will and way of thought on the rest of the world. And eventually, all empires fall... Fact.

All this fuss about stopping Iran having nuclear technology (let's be clear about that - technology - not weapons) is laughable. Use the excuse they're developing weapons, then invade (with or without UN sanction). Haven't we heard that one before, Mr Bush?

It's just to get a foothold in another oil rich country. Don't forget the United States of America are the only sovereign national to ever use a Weapon Of Mass Destruction against another sovereign nation.

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Originally Posted by CortexRock

Don't forget the United States of America are the only sovereign national to ever use a Weapon Of Mass Destruction against another sovereign nation.

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Yes, a context all it's own.

Please explain the significance, not of the event, but of your recollection of it.

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Originally Posted by j2k4

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Originally Posted by CortexRock

Don't forget the United States of America are the only sovereign national to ever use a Weapon Of Mass Destruction against another sovereign nation.

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Yes, a context all it's own.

Please explain the significance, not of the event, but of your recollection of it.

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Obviously I don't "recall the event" as I'm not old enough to have been there - but I know what happened to Hiroshima and Nagasaki, more than the poor buggers who were in the blast zone did, at least.

I just think it's laughable that the only nuclear/atomic weapons ever used in anger were used by the USA, and now they're trying to stop anyone else even using the technology to generate electricity.

Team America: World Police - a satire, or merely an exaggerated reflection of reality...

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Originally Posted by CortexRock

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Originally Posted by j2k4

Yes, a context all it's own.

Please explain the significance, not of the event, but of your recollection of it.

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Obviously I don't "recall the event" as I'm not old enough to have been there - but I know what happened to Hiroshima and Nagasaki, more than the poor buggers who were in the blast zone did, at least.

I just think it's laughable that the only nuclear/atomic weapons ever used in anger were used by the USA, and now they're trying to stop anyone else even using the technology to generate electricity.

Team America: World Police - a satire, or merely an exaggerated reflection of reality...

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I didn't mean to indicate you were "old enough to have been there"; neither was I...

I feel your statement lacks context, though.

The U.S. was the first (and hopefully the only) country to use a nuke, true enough, but I don't believe anyone could have imagined the panoply of "WMD" including those non-nuclear types we're all so skittish about.

In fact, the worst aspect of nuclear technology (as it applies to weaponry) is not that the bombs dwarf the versions used on Japan, but that it has been scaled down, in order to be used as a means to distribute "dirty" materials over battlefield-sized areas or cities.

Unscrupulous purveyers of such technology can deal with those they like, and the likelihood of a mal-intended transaction taking place between Kim Jong-Il and the bad guys is greater than that of America's doing the same, in my opinion.

In all actuality, if the U.S.S.R. had beaten us to the punch, we'd have a different alphabet to type with, and you'd be bitching about them, wouldn't you?

The U.S. doesn't warrant the label you take such pleasure in using; the lessons were learned long ago, and nukes haven't been used (in "anger", as you say) since.

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Originally Posted by j2k4

In all actuality, if the U.S.S.R. had beaten us to the punch, we'd have a different alphabet to type with, and you'd be bitching about them, wouldn't you?

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I know it's out of context, sorry for that, but actually what your suggesting is totally not true, you can learn cyrillic in one day, it's very simple, only few letters are new, and all off them do correspond to an existing sound in a latin alphabet like spanish.
Reading fast comes after off course, but as it is when you learn any latin or germanic language. :)

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Originally Posted by leonidas

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Originally Posted by j2k4

In all actuality, if the U.S.S.R. had beaten us to the punch, we'd have a different alphabet to type with, and you'd be bitching about them, wouldn't you?

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I know it's out of context, sorry for that, but actually what your suggesting is totally not true, you can learn cyrillic in one day, it's very simple, only few letters are new, and all off them do correspond to an existing sound in a latin alphabet like spanish.
Reading fast comes after off course, but as it is when you learn any latin or germanic language. :)

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I'm quite sure it would have been just that simple.

Well, then, alack and alas; we missed quite the opportunity, yes?

yes you did! but don't worry, you won't rule the world for ever :) time to improve your chinese.

In more of an on-topic gesture, I agree that the "pioneer" mentality has come to a sickening stagnation, though I fail to realize how this ideal targets Americans in specific. We as a species, not specific nations, have the obligation to further our global collective. Unfortunately that pioneering spirit, the search for the unknown, has been dulled over by politics and morals. The 'catch-22' is that we trade rapid advancement, for safety. Something that I am definately willing to trade.

My only hope is that rather than waiting for someone to decide for you, you take the option to make the difference yourself. You have just as much of an opportunity to get the education to make a difference as any American citizen.

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Originally Posted by Damnatory

In more of an on-topic gesture, I agree that the "pioneer" mentality has come to a sickening stagnation, though I fail to realize how this ideal targets Americans in specific. We as a species, not specific nations, have the obligation to further our global collective. Unfortunately that pioneering spirit, the search for the unknown, has been dulled over by politics and morals. The 'catch-22' is that we trade rapid advancement, for safety. Something that I am definately willing to trade.

My only hope is that rather than waiting for someone to decide for you, you take the option to make the difference yourself. You have just as much of an opportunity to get the education to make a difference as any American citizen.

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Nice to see someone who got my point! I agree with you. One should never wait for anyone. But asking or pointing out something which might be done doesn't mean you have to be anxious, you can manage not to.
Also, I don't think you can deny that america fought against comunism or socialism for 50 years, and managed to have it killed in many coutries.
For Americans comunism meant "nuclear menace", but you forget that every single russian was given a house or an appartment for free at that time. People didn't have to give 30 years of their life to have the right to own a appartement like most people in europe japan or usa do for instance.
For many people comunism meant something. Thanks for killing people's dream :) . Maybe next time when you want to protect youself, try not breaking someone else's. Thx mr Truman!, thx mr Kennedy!, thx mr Nickson! and thx Mr Reagan! ( I don't know much about ford and carter :) ) Now what's the program for humanity? ;) explore cosmos? "No sorry today you work at MacDonald." "Does this mean I will have free hamburgers after work?" " Yes it does!!" Great!"

I won't even pretend I'm intelligent enough to voice an opinion in rebuttal to that statement, as history and politics have never been my strong suit. Though I can't help but realize the blatant digression from what seemed a question of advancement, to what now seems to be a cause for voicing a bias vendetta.

Where exactly are you trying to go with this?

cyborgs.

and there's still a war forthcoming, when true artificial intelligence is developed and incorporated into household appliances. and we soon thereafter recognize our folly when said appliances rise up against us.

at which point the lizard men will reveal themselves. let's welcome our reptilian masters with open arms.

unfortunately, this also means that christmas will be cancelled indefinitely.

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Originally Posted by Damnatory

I won't even pretend I'm intelligent enough to voice an opinion in rebuttal to that statement, as history and politics have never been my strong suit. Though I can't help but realize the blatant digression from what seemed a question of advancement, to what now seems to be a cause for voicing a bias vendetta.

Where exactly are you trying to go with this?

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Nowere in particular right now. I'm one those who thinks it's important to know the past to understand how humanity works, and act and think taking this into account. Another boring teacher :) .
I'm not calling for vendetta, I don't think it would do any good to anyone. Maybe Just trying to have people aware maybe that's all. I think it can change the world for good when truth is not hidden. It brings trust.

It's to do with the freedom fries thing, isn't it?

However, there were also plenty of issues with Russia's brand of communism.

:shuriken:

It were more totalitarianism, I think. Unfortunately I don't know what that is.

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Originally Posted by leonidas

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Originally Posted by Damnatory

In more of an on-topic gesture, I agree that the "pioneer" mentality has come to a sickening stagnation, though I fail to realize how this ideal targets Americans in specific. We as a species, not specific nations, have the obligation to further our global collective. Unfortunately that pioneering spirit, the search for the unknown, has been dulled over by politics and morals. The 'catch-22' is that we trade rapid advancement, for safety. Something that I am definately willing to trade.

My only hope is that rather than waiting for someone to decide for you, you take the option to make the difference yourself. You have just as much of an opportunity to get the education to make a difference as any American citizen.

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Nice to see someone who got my point! I agree with you. One should never wait for anyone. But asking or pointing out something which might be done doesn't mean you have to be anxious, you can manage not to.
Also, I don't think you can deny that america fought against comunism or socialism for 50 years, and managed to have it killed in many coutries.
For Americans comunism meant "nuclear menace", but you forget that every single russian was given a house or an appartment for free at that time. People didn't have to give 30 years of their life to have the right to own a appartement like most people in europe japan or usa do for instance.
For many people comunism meant something. Thanks for killing people's dream :) . Maybe next time when you want to protect youself, try not breaking someone else's. Thx mr Truman!, thx mr Kennedy!, thx mr Nickson! and thx Mr Reagan! ( I don't know much about ford and carter :) ) Now what's the program for humanity? ;) explore cosmos? "No sorry today you work at MacDonald." "Does this mean I will have free hamburgers after work?" " Yes it does!!" Great!"

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Well communism does not have much room for advancement of the individual. The individual also doesn't have much of a voice either.

Maybe the basis of communism has good intentions since everyone works for the common good but that's only on paper.

I watched 60 Minutes the other day and Leslie Stahl asked a group of Chinese students (almost all boys btw) how many kids they wanted and they all said one.

Then many of them spouted Chinese doctrine about sacrificing for the country. Now this is all congruent with the population situation over there. However, the students thought Americans were selfish for having more than one kid.:unsure:

Under communism I doubt I could have a large home, work more to have more and so forth.

You think America crushed Russia's communism but I think it crushed itself.

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Originally Posted by Busyman™

Under communism I doubt I could have a large home, work more to have more and so forth.

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You're probably right, unless of course you needed a large home.

"From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs."

You're right in your statements. I'm far from saying communism is a perfect or the best system, actually I think that a form of liberalism (Not capitalism) with public health care and rate limited benefits would be the solution. I say it's a pity, there is nothing to fight for know, and nothing to compare the capitalism system with.

China is what you can call a salvage capitalism based system. It has nothing to do with the ideas of Karl Marks.

Talking about salvage capitalism, I was watching the Sopranos few days ago, and I asked myself: " Why is America showing such a program on tv??" I mean showing the human side of killing mobs! This musn't come free of charges :) And then I realised that mafia can be seen as an extrem manifestation of capitalism. No rules but the ones to protect the business. "It's a business" always says Antony Soprano. Nice shot! now one will think: That's ok to exploit your neighbour. You know... that's business.. the only way to stay alive, and keep your dignity. And as I'm not such a bastard like Antony Soprano (whom by the way is anyway a simpathetic guy) I can go on :) like that. I like you americans when you get cute :)

hum....nobody says a word. I appologize for being such a talking machine.