A Stumper

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05-07-2006, 09:12 AM
clocker

A Stumper

OK.
This is really happening and no, I don't know why, so any thoughts would be appreciated.

Recently one of our original customers brought back his PC for an upgrade.
For sentimental reasons he wished to keep his case and he provided two 300GB Maxtor HDDs (still new in box) that he had gotten off eBay but we provided all the other parts.
-AMD 3200 Venice core CPU
-2x1GB Patriot RAM
-DFI LanParty UT nF4 Ultra-D motherboard
-CoolerMaster RS-450 PSU (his request)

Install/stress testing went without a hitch and he picked it up yesterday morning.
Within a half hour I got a phone call...PC wouldn't boot.
"Cannot find any bootable devices, please enter BIOS and set boot order" or some such nonsense. "Press F1 to continue or Del to enter setup".

He brings the machine back and sure enough, no HDDs are listed in BIOS...in fact, no IDE devices are detected at all.
How odd.
Replace cables, check molexes, power on the PC.
BIOS detects everything, boots right to desktop.
Reboot several times without an issue.
Unplug the PSU, let the machine sit for 5 minutes, power back on and...no IDE devices detected.
Enter BIOS (where no optical or HDD devices are shown), make NO changes, hit F10 and "yes" and all devices show up and PC boots normally.

Repeat, lather, rinse.
Basically, once mains power is removed, BIOS "forgets" all the IDE devices and has to rediscover them.
Date/time and all other settings are retained, it's only IDE that gets lost.
Test CMOS battery,which tests good, and replace it anyway.
Nada.

This is definitely a motherboard/BIOS issue (IMO) but I've never seen such a selective failure. I would expect ALL BIOS settings to be lost but they aren't...only the IDE devices go missing and they are rediscovered and work properly after the second reboot after opening BIOS (but making no changes).
As long as standby power is present (PC plugged in to wall) all is well.

What am I missing here?
05-07-2006, 10:13 AM
Mivaro

Re: A Stumper

I doubt it wil work, but did you update the bios? ( i know, it's a bit far fetched...)
05-07-2006, 11:04 AM
clocker

Re: A Stumper

Actually, yes.
When he first ordered the upgrade the customer had specced 1GB of RAM so we installed two 512 sticks.
He changed his mind midstream and wanted to up that to 2GB, but we couldn't get it to pass memtest with all four DIMM slots populated so we flashed to the latest BIOS hoping to solve the problem. It didn't, so we just got two 1GB modules instead.

It seems a relatively common issue BTW...nForce4 chipsets and 4x512 RAM doesn't work very well for lots of folks apparently- forums are full of plaintive cries for help over this issue. Sprocket never had any trouble so I was just lucky, I guess.

Not a bad idea though, Mivaro.
05-07-2006, 11:44 AM
fkdup74

Re: A Stumper

Have to ask this.....was the mobo forgetting the IDE channels before the BIOS flash?
Probably more far-fetchery, but..
05-07-2006, 12:15 PM
Virtualbody1234

Re: A Stumper

Fault in motherboard. Swap with another and test.

An afterthought: Perhaps the mobo is making contact with the case (shorting out)?
05-07-2006, 02:31 PM
clocker

Re: A Stumper

Quote:

Originally Posted by fkdup74

Have to ask this.....was the mobo forgetting the IDE channels before the BIOS flash?
Probably more far-fetchery, but..

Actually a very astute question and the short answer is...I don't know.
Although the PC was on the bench for three days as it went through assembly, troubleshooting the RAM issue and stress testing, it was probably never completely powered off. It was [i]shut down certainly, but the plug was never removed so there was always standby power to the board.

The new owner came to take delivery while the machine was still on the bench as we demonstrated the features, etc. ( and really we do this just to prove the damn things work when delivered).
It wasn't till he got it home that this issue arose.

It's actually quite easy to workaround and could be ignored but of course we can't suggest this so a solution must be found.

I suspect that VB's suggestion is the way we will have to go- just replace the board altogether.

It's odd though, isn't it?
05-07-2006, 06:46 PM
suprafreak6

Re: A Stumper

yeah, maybe its a pure faulty mobo and cant be fixed by manual labor
05-07-2006, 06:58 PM
peat moss

Re: A Stumper

Quote:

Originally Posted by suprafreak6

yeah, maybe its a pure faulty mobo and cant be fixed by manual labor

Manual labour ? Our his twin General Electric . :) Funny was going to suggest Bios update but thought PSU ? :ermm:
05-07-2006, 08:50 PM
lynx

Re: A Stumper

I've seen problems like this before, but only occasionally, not reproduceable on demand, and in each case the problem has been faulty hdd.

Since you are bound to have one or two lying around it would be easier to connect one up and see if the mobo remembers it, just to rule out that possibility.
05-07-2006, 09:27 PM
suprafreak6

Re: A Stumper

nice one lynx, i think you may be onto the solution
05-08-2006, 12:17 AM
clocker

Re: A Stumper

Lynx,

I have been reading about problems with the new Maxtor Spinpoint drives and nF4 chipsets.
We'll try a new drive tomorrow.

Still, why would this affect the optical drives as well?
05-08-2006, 12:43 AM
lynx

Re: A Stumper

I hadn't considered the Optical drives, if they are gone too then it is probably the mobo.

In any case, I simply thought it would be quicker to try a known working drive rather than a potentially unknown quantity from Ebay before ripping out the mobo.
05-08-2006, 01:31 AM
Duffman

Re: A Stumper

can you downgrade the bios to the original version?
05-08-2006, 02:48 AM
clocker

Re: A Stumper

Quote:

Originally Posted by lynx

I hadn't considered the Optical drives, if they are gone too then it is probably the mobo.

In any case, I simply thought it would be quicker to try a known working drive rather than a potentially unknown quantity from Ebay before ripping out the mobo.

I still like the HDD as the culprit even though the drives were both in original and apparently factory sealed packaging.
Admittedly shrink wrapping can be redone, but they sure looked brand new.
Maxtor has a firmware upgrade for these drives to address the "sporadic" (their description) problems that are cropping up but I'm leery of such an extreme fix...if something goes wrong we become responsible for replacement.

If we swap out the motherboard and the problem continues then it's on the owner, not us.
05-08-2006, 03:54 AM
Damnatory

Re: A Stumper

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duffman

can you downgrade the bios to the original version?

Even if did that, there is no guarentee that it will reproduce the problems with the earlier BIOS, if there were any before.

Clocker, I've had the same problem as well, with a dying Maxtor HDD. It was random though, so I could never reproduce it at will either. I never tried unplugging it either, as I try not to make it a habit of moving my PC's around. Just thought I would second the suspicion of the HDD, as Lynx said. However the only difference between his problem and mine, was the fact that when the HDD didn't read, the opticals wouldn't either, moreso like your situation.
05-08-2006, 04:15 AM
clocker

Re: A Stumper

Thanks for the suggestions folks.

This problem/phenomonon is precisely definable and reproducable, which you'd think would make it easier to eliminate, not harder.
I'll let you know what we do and what happens.
05-08-2006, 05:16 PM
Duffman

Re: A Stumper

Have you tried swapping in a different psu?
05-08-2006, 11:45 PM
clocker

Re: A Stumper

It's the HDDs.
Actually, it's the pairing of the two Maxtors.

With just one drive connected the PC acts as normal.
Connect the second Maxtor and the issue returns.
Replace the second Maxtor with a Seagate and everything is back to normal as well.

The PC can handle two HDDs just fine as long as they are not both Maxtors.
Now it's up to the customer.
05-09-2006, 12:04 AM
lee551

Re: A Stumper

damn, what an interesting problem. two maxtors not getting along huh?

is there any explanation, or is it a trivial freak of computer nature?
05-09-2006, 12:31 AM
fkdup74

Re: A Stumper

Quote:

Originally Posted by clocker

The PC can handle two HDDs just fine as long as they are not ~~both~~ Maxtors.

Just thought I'd strike that out for my own purposes. :maxtorhater: :happy:
05-09-2006, 01:42 AM
clocker

Re: A Stumper

Quote:

Originally Posted by lee551

damn, what an interesting problem. two maxtors not getting along huh?

is there any explanation, or is it a trivial freak of computer nature?

I have no explanation per se, just confirmation that this oddity does occur -every time- in a reproducable and predictable fashion.

I spent nearly two hours this morning (and it's my friggin day off!) trying every combination of drives, multiple times.
Just FYI- yes, I did swap out/disconnect the opticals as well to eliminate them from the equation.

The only constant that would invariably cause the PC to "lose" the IDE channels upon power disconnect was the pair of Maxtor drives.

It's really not that big of a deal...upon first boot from install at home, all he has to do is enter BIOS, touch nothing, hit F10 and enter, then just let her boot up.
As long as there is standby power (i.e., the PSU is plugged into the wall) the PC will always remember the IDE devices and act right.

Like I said...it's up to him now.

Personally, I think he should just get a little 80GB Seagate and make that his C: (Windows) drive and use one of the 300GB Maxtors as his storage drive.
He could put the second 300GB drive in an external enclosure and make it a backup storage box.
I should know by tomorrow what he wants to do.:stars:
05-09-2006, 03:32 AM
fkdup74

Re: A Stumper

Quote:

Originally Posted by clocker

I spent nearly two hours this morning (and it's my friggin day off!) trying every combination of drives, multiple times.
Just FYI- yes, I did swap out/disconnect the opticals as well to eliminate them from the equation.

Even with the Maxtors on separate IDE channels?
You know, to rule out if they just didn't loike the master/slave configuration?

This is truly a wierd situation.

-edit- I said "loike". I will shoot myself now. :(

And....FYI....that's what you get for goofin around on your day off. 2 hrs of frustration. :P

It never fails, if you go in to the shop (or in my case, office) on an off day, you spend more time there than you planned to,
and you end up with more headaches than on a regular day at work.

I can't count the times I have tried to sneak in on a Friday off, or a Saturday, trying to get some quick work done, and get hit with more problems than I bargained for.

Moral of the story...stay away on your day off. Go fishing, watch a ball game, tinker with your toys, anything, but don't go near work. :happy:
05-09-2006, 09:35 AM
clocker

Re: A Stumper

Quote:

Originally Posted by fkdup74

Even with the Maxtors on separate IDE channels?
You know, to rule out if they just didn't loike the master/slave configuration?

Now that I did not try.
For two reasons.

-Because of the case layout it would be difficult to connect a harddrive and an optical on the same cable, and...
-That config-assuming it worked properly- would be rinky-dink and unprofessional. Basically, a worse option than just booting twice to get the drives recognized.