Kids gone wrong

The Canadian federal government want courts to have jurisdiction over offenders as young as 10 to help them avoid further crimes.

Justice Minister Vic Toews says courts should have jurisdiction over offenders as young as 10 so they can 'order appropriate treatment.
The Youth Criminal Justice Act makes children older than 12 subject to courts, but under that age, social welfare agencies are the main means of dealing with delinquents.

On Monday, Toews proposed lowering the limit to 10 years of age, saying the point would be to help the children, not jail them.



Link : http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/natio...ews-young.html

A pretty grim prospect.

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Originally Posted by j2k4

A pretty grim prospect.

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Ya your right J2k4 , wasn't till after I posted that I saw a reference to the little British boy that was killed on the tracks . I had forgot about him , but at 10 they know the difference between right and wrong ,BS anyone who may say different .


Maybe its difficult for me to comprehend what kids are capable of cause I have young ones that age . I read this tonight and shook my head . Entitled too young to kill ?


http://www.brook.edu/views/op-ed/fel...er20050109.htm

Nobody younger than 18 years knows for real what he wants of life, to punish kids is wrong cause they are most of time influenced by something else to do a crime, its not like they need money soo they steal. A 10 year old child doesn't know anything of life. Children only think they know and thats not a crime, parents or the system is wrong when younger than 18 years old make trouble. If u tell somebody as old as 12 that he is a criminal he sure will be one when he's older, that doesn't solve anything. The goal of this is probably to earn some extra money or to control everything. But im sure this is only goes for poor children.

The age of criminality in Scotland is 8. IMO it is not the age of criminality that matters but how they are punished when caught. Why dont they publish their names and let parents know who your kids may be running around with. They did that when I was younger. I think that publishing their names might put a bit more responsibility on their parents.

Are children not allowed a certain element of "experience" while they grow up, or should they live in cocoons?

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Originally Posted by Jeff Stryker

Are children not allowed a certain element of "experience" while they grow up, or should they live in cocoons?

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"A certain element"?

Sure, why not?

How much is that, by the way? :huh:

I think a child over 12 knows the difference between right or wrong. It just takes more time than others to grow out of mischief. I seen in front of my eyes 11-13 year olds stealing stuff from markets. Mere 50p drinks. They also stole other things and when they got out they started to hand it out to their friends....ofcourse someone saw them and reported them but they dropped the goods and ran.

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Originally Posted by gamer4eva

I think a child over 12 knows the difference between right or wrong. It just takes more time than others to grow out of mischief. I seen in front of my eyes 11-13 year olds stealing stuff from markets. Mere 50p drinks. They also stole other things and when they got out they started to hand it out to their friends....ofcourse someone saw them and reported them but they dropped the goods and ran.

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Hmm soo whats the big deal in stealing a candy when u are young, its not like u do it because u don't have food or u planed it. When i was in high school some stole candy and if kids as young as 12 do that they probably have nothng better to do. I would say 12 year old child thinks he knows what he wants to do with life. We did many things when i was from 10 to 16. U know if we had such laws they could if they want lock u up for some little things. Its not like laws are for criminals, laws are made to charge poor ppl money, it only gives more power to police which can than do whatever they want.

When I posted this I was thinking something different , not a young one stepping out of line but a little basterd who hurts someone .

Like what mind at 10 or 11 years of age thinks to hurt someone so badly then they try to hide the crime .

We have kids 10 and 12 robbing banks , burning down senior apartments and laffing about it . When theres no accountabilty we suffer .


I was thinking of Jamie Bolger , who's name we know but not that of the little monsters who inflicted pain and torture on the little boy . Their names are hidden ,keep from the public eye probably living by you now .

We don't have such problems here, not that i heard of, the worst that happend was that few kids killed few cats for fun.

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Originally Posted by limesqueezer

We don't have such problems here, not that i heard of, the worst that happend was that few kids killed few cats for fun.

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Well.

Nothing wrong with that, then.

I think kids at age 10 know the difference between right and wrong. They might not know the legality of it, but they probably know from a moral standpoint if what they're doing is unacceptable and if their parents found out they'd be in trouble. I don't think that peer pressure should be considered - if a normally good child kills a dog because their friends think it would be cool, they still need to learn a lesson about consequences. I don't think that the punishments should be as harsh or severe as those for an adult in most cases, but I still think they should be punished. Nothing wrong with community service, cleaning up garbage or washing windows to learn their lesson.

The problem in our society is that the power to punish has been taken away from the parents. Even grounding a child to their room in some places is considered to be cruel and unusual. I'm not saying parents should be allowed to beat their kids up, but a smack on the ass never killed anyone, and I grew up okay. (I got spanked quite frequently, but I was a brat and I deserved it.) I've also been told that making my son work as a form of punishment is mean. Why? A couple weeks ago I caught him with alcohol in his bag. He's been grounded, and given extra chores around the house. The more he does, the shorter his grounding will be. My point is that legally, we as parents don't have the right to punish as we see fit, even though some of us will anyway. So if we can't do it, maybe the courts can straighten out the mess that the bleeding hearts have made of our kids. Maybe knowing that there are REAL consequences to their actions will make them think twice.

The necessity for having two working parents in most households contributes to the problem as well to some extent. Kids have a bit more freedom and less supervision. It's not the parents' fault that they have to make ends meet, and kids are being left alone a bit younger these days because of that. It might only be an hour afterschool until mom or dad gets home, but in that hour that child could do literally anything. I'm as guilty of this as anyone else, as I've been doing exactly that since Nate was 11 but there is little choice I have had. When you can barely pay rent and bills and groceries, how do you afford a babysitter as well, right?

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Originally Posted by NikkiD

I think kids at age 10 know the difference between right and wrong. They might not know the legality of it, but they probably know from a moral standpoint if what they're doing is unacceptable and if their parents found out they'd be in trouble. I don't think that peer pressure should be considered - if a normally good child kills a dog because their friends think it would be cool, they still need to learn a lesson about consequences. I don't think that the punishments should be as harsh or severe as those for an adult in most cases, but I still think they should be punished. Nothing wrong with community service, cleaning up garbage or washing windows to learn their lesson.

The problem in our society is that the power to punish has been taken away from the parents. Even grounding a child to their room in some places is considered to be cruel and unusual. I'm not saying parents should be allowed to beat their kids up, but a smack on the ass never killed anyone, and I grew up okay. (I got spanked quite frequently, but I was a brat and I deserved it.) I've also been told that making my son work as a form of punishment is mean. Why? A couple weeks ago I caught him with alcohol in his bag. He's been grounded, and given extra chores around the house. The more he does, the shorter his grounding will be. My point is that legally, we as parents don't have the right to punish as we see fit, even though some of us will anyway. So if we can't do it, maybe the courts can straighten out the mess that the bleeding hearts have made of our kids. Maybe knowing that there are REAL consequences to their actions will make them think twice.

The necessity for having two working parents in most households contributes to the problem as well to some extent. Kids have a bit more freedom and less supervision. It's not the parents' fault that they have to make ends meet, and kids are being left alone a bit younger these days because of that. It might only be an hour afterschool until mom or dad gets home, but in that hour that child could do literally anything. I'm as guilty of this as anyone else, as I've been doing exactly that since Nate was 11 but there is little choice I have had. When you can barely pay rent and bills and groceries, how do you afford a babysitter as well, right?

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And that is it, as they say, in a nutshell.

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Originally Posted by NikkiD

I think kids at age 10 know the difference between right and wrong. They might not know the legality of it, but they probably know from a moral standpoint if what they're doing is unacceptable and if their parents found out they'd be in trouble. I don't think that peer pressure should be considered - if a normally good child kills a dog because their friends think it would be cool, they still need to learn a lesson about consequences. I don't think that the punishments should be as harsh or severe as those for an adult in most cases, but I still think they should be punished. Nothing wrong with community service, cleaning up garbage or washing windows to learn their lesson.

The problem in our society is that the power to punish has been taken away from the parents. Even grounding a child to their room in some places is considered to be cruel and unusual. I'm not saying parents should be allowed to beat their kids up, but a smack on the ass never killed anyone, and I grew up okay. (I got spanked quite frequently, but I was a brat and I deserved it.) I've also been told that making my son work as a form of punishment is mean. Why? A couple weeks ago I caught him with alcohol in his bag. He's been grounded, and given extra chores around the house. The more he does, the shorter his grounding will be. My point is that legally, we as parents don't have the right to punish as we see fit, even though some of us will anyway. So if we can't do it, maybe the courts can straighten out the mess that the bleeding hearts have made of our kids. Maybe knowing that there are REAL consequences to their actions will make them think twice.

The necessity for having two working parents in most households contributes to the problem as well to some extent. Kids have a bit more freedom and less supervision. It's not the parents' fault that they have to make ends meet, and kids are being left alone a bit younger these days because of that. It might only be an hour afterschool until mom or dad gets home, but in that hour that child could do literally anything. I'm as guilty of this as anyone else, as I've been doing exactly that since Nate was 11 but there is little choice I have had. When you can barely pay rent and bills and groceries, how do you afford a babysitter as well, right?

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Good post but to your statement in bold....Where?:ermm:

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Originally Posted by j2k4

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Originally Posted by limesqueezer

We don't have such problems here, not that i heard of, the worst that happend was that few kids killed few cats for fun.

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Well.

Nothing wrong with that, then.

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Some eat cats. :D Might be that in USA they want you to belive that you have to pay money when you kick a dog because its a bad thing to do. Money talks. If the dog doesn't have a owner, he quickly falls asleep. You can't blame the kids for such things unless its against the law. Good that i don't live in USA or Canada. No wonder you got soo much crime and problems when you are limited like that. I have never experienced that any law helped me when it should or protect me or anything like that. Do you really think laws are for the good and safety of people and kids ?

I think anyone who says "A child doesn't know between right and wrong" or "they had nothing better to do" should try and put themselves in the position of the victim. Be it shopkeeper who has candy stolen or parent of murdered child, then see if your opinion is the same.
IMO a child of 6 knows not to kill animal or human, they also know not to steal.
If the child steals something and runs from the store then they know it's wrong otherwise they wouldn't run no?
It's true a child has less inhibitians at a young age but that doesn't mean they don't know right from wrong.

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Jon Venables and Robert Thompson had been stealing things all day at the shopping center -- candy, a troll doll, some batteries, a can of blue paint, and other incidentals. Why did they decide to steal a baby? Was it a plot or a sudden, overwhelming compulsion? Once they had him, they didn’t know what to do with him. They could have easily discarded James, leaving him alone on the sidewalk, by a shop, where someone would discover the crying baby. But Jon and Robert, like children who would rather destroy their own possessions than give them to another, murdered the little boy. James’s parents would never see their baby alive again

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Clipping from a story about the above mentioned Jamie Bulger.
Local Boy In A Photograph.

I myself have witnessed kids as young as 10 out on a friday night drinking and smashing stuff up, the police drive past at which point the kids hand their beer to someone over 18 or they hide it and then swear at the cops.
If I were to do that and hurl obsceneties at a copper I would be arrested so please tell me the difference?
Having once spoken to an officer about this his reply was "There's no point in arresting them because we can't press charges and they walk away leaving us with mountains of paperwork"

If I had a son or daughter who at the age of 9 or 10 was caught vadelising something or involved in beating another child with a gang I would come down on them like a ton of shit.
Part of the problem is some parents not caring what their kids are doing like some of Nate's friends, to qoute one of the parents of a 13 y/o girl he knows

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"I let her do pretty much as she pleases because I don't want her to grow up with a sense of being trapped and held back from doing what she wants to do in life"

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Sorry but to me that is retarded, fortunately this particular girl actually does have her head screwed on for the most part except she treats her mother like shit.
The other problem is as Nik said, the power of punishment has been taken away, from parents and schools alike, upto the age of about 10 I feared the slipper from Mr.Green the deputy headmaster, after he left and corperal punishment was banned we ran riot because the worst we would get was maybe an hour detention, it's not so much the punishment but the threat of the punishment which keeps kids in order.
I realise some poeple out there will say "beating kids is wrong" yes to a degree it is, but a smack across the back of the legs or a ruler accross the hand will heal in a matter of hours. To ban it was wrong, those who will beat the shit out of kids STILL beat the shit out of kids but those who enforced rule with the threat of a spanking now have very little control.
How many here have grown up disturbed by getting a reasonable amount of punishment? not many I wager.

Another example, my 12 y/o nephew recently got in trouble at school, 2 of his mates were fighting with this other kid and kicking him etc, my nephew thought they were messing around so went over and jumped on the boy, having then realised they wern't kidding he walked away. What he should have done was got a teacher but he just walked away. His punishment? 1 week suspension from school and very nearly prosecuted by the childs parents.
The boy who was kicking repeatedly broke down in tears in the office and simply got 1 weeks suspension.
My nephew was punished to a stronger degree for being honest and taking it like a grown up, the other boy who done more wrong got off lighter because...."He cried"

The civilised world has gone soft and has bread a generation of fearless uncontrolable kids.
Punishment is good and very much needed, provided it's with just cause and obviously not over the top.

As I said, the phrase "But their just kids" only applies until YOU are the victim.

Jonno :cool:

How can a adult be a victim of 9 year old child ? This is just really, really funny. Are those kind of parents such big cowards or whats wrong with them.

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Originally Posted by limesqueezer

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Originally Posted by j2k4

Well.

Nothing wrong with that, then.

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Some eat cats. :D Might be that in USA they want you to belive that you have to pay money when you kick a dog because its a bad thing to do. Money talks. If the dog doesn't have a owner, he quickly falls asleep. You can't blame the kids for such things unless its against the law. Good that i don't live in USA or Canada. No wonder you got soo much crime and problems when you are limited like that. I have never experienced that any law helped me when it should or protect me or anything like that. Do you really think laws are for the good and safety of people and kids ?

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The less laws the less crime? Must use that the next time I try for erection election. Dont give Government ideas.:ph34r:

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Originally Posted by limesqueezer

How can a adult be a victim of 9 year old child ? This is just really, really funny. Are those kind of parents such big cowards or whats wrong with them.

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Tell that to Mr. and Mrs Bulger.
Tell that to anyone who's ever had their car tires slash by a kid and couldn't do a thing about it.
What would you do if a 9 y/o put a brick through your window or killed your dog or stole you tv and the police can't press charges or the kid gets off with a slap on the wrist, what would you do?

Jonno :cool:

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Originally Posted by Jon L. Obscene

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Originally Posted by limesqueezer

How can a adult be a victim of 9 year old child ? This is just really, really funny. Are those kind of parents such big cowards or whats wrong with them.

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Tell that to Mr. and Mrs Bulger.
Tell that to anyone who's ever had their car tires slash by a kid and couldn't do a thing about it.
What would you do if a 9 y/o put a brick through your window or killed your dog or stole you tv and the police can't press charges or the kid gets off with a slap on the wrist, what would you do?

Jonno :cool:

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I think people would start taking the law into their own hands. If a kid puts a brick through your house window, do you go and put a brick through their house window? Where would it all end?:(

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Originally Posted by Jon L. Obscene

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Originally Posted by limesqueezer

How can a adult be a victim of 9 year old child ? This is just really, really funny. Are those kind of parents such big cowards or whats wrong with them.

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Tell that to Mr. and Mrs Bulger.
Tell that to anyone who's ever had their car tires slash by a kid and couldn't do a thing about it.
What would you do if a 9 y/o put a brick through your window or killed your dog or stole you tv and the police can't press charges or the kid gets off with a slap on the wrist, what would you do?

Jonno :cool:

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Well it could be problem if a groups of children would do something like that but if only 1 kid is a problem i would deal with him. In fact some kid stole my bike some time ago and he doesn't do it anymore. After we were done with that kid he started to fear the dark after all the stories we told him and his drunk father couldn't do a thing about it also, cause he was a looser anyway and he beat up the kid. That kid was around 11 years old and i was 17.

Wow I have to hand it to you, you certainly are brave, going after an 11y/o an' all.
Point being, no one has the legal right to do it. That child could have pressed charges against you for harrassment or some such so once again you lose and are a victim to a child. You also probably had no idea what his father would do, as Bob said, where would it end?

Anyone can be a victim to a child, in some cases more so to a child than adult.
It's much easier to press charges against an adult than a child.
So you answered my question by saying if a 9 y/o put your windows in you would go after them?
Also you say it would be a problem if it were groups? well in most cases they are groups, so you have 7 or 8 9y/o's put all your windows in and slash your tires, what would you do?

Btw, Hey Bob, long time :)

Jonno :cool:

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Originally Posted by Jon L. Obscene

Wow I have to hand it to you, you certainly are brave, going after an 11y/o an' all.
Point being, no one has the legal right to do it. That child could have pressed charges against you for harrassment or some such so once again you lose and are a victim to a child. You also probably had no idea what his father would do, as Bob said, where would it end?

Anyone can be a victim to a child, in some cases more so to a child than adult.
It's much easier to press charges against an adult than a child.
So you answered my question by saying if a 9 y/o put your windows in you would go after them?
Also you say it would be a problem if it were groups? well in most cases they are groups, so you have 7 or 8 9y/o's put all your windows in and slash your tires, what would you do?

Btw, Hey Bob, long time :)

Jonno :cool:

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We don't have laws here where a child make charges against anybody if you scared him. And why would he do that, he didn't even know what that is and when he was running to his father all scared he only got more troubles. I never heard that it is illegal to scare somebody, if u have such laws than you really need more dumb laws. I don't know how a 10 year old kids got soo much power at your city that they can terrorize you and at same time sue you. I know my rights and the laws. :lol:

Ah ok, well in the UK and Canada it's called threatening behaviour towards a minor and is quite a serious charge. It stops children getting beaten up by older teenagers for lunch money etc.
And I agree, the law needs to be harsher, but isn't that what this thread is about? kids than run amuck? lawlessness amoung children?
First you argued that it's ok cos their kids now you say they should be punished?
I'm not sure whether you're agreeing or not.
If you are (as your flag says) from Yugoslavia then as far as I know the kids out that way are worse in many cases and used in inapropriate ways by adults?
Here and in the UK kids are protected from that, unfortuantely the law gives them too much protection so much so that they get away with too much.
But they do need protecting. And regaurdless of laws right or wrong, a child does know whats right and wrong.

Jonno :cool:

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Originally Posted by Jon L. Obscene

Ah ok, well in the UK and Canada it's called threatening behaviour towards a minor and is quite a serious charge.

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Yes, yes, but he doesn't live in the U.K. or Canada, he lives near border, where they have no laws and stuff. :whistling

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Originally Posted by Jon L. Obscene

Ah ok, well in the UK and Canada it's called threatening behaviour towards a minor and is quite a serious charge. It stops children getting beaten up by older teenagers for lunch money etc.
And I agree, the law needs to be harsher, but isn't that what this thread is about? kids than run amuck? lawlessness amoung children?
First you argued that it's ok cos their kids now you say they should be punished?
I'm not sure whether you're agreeing or not.
If you are (as your flag says) from Yugoslavia then as far as I know the kids out that way are worse in many cases and used in inapropriate ways by adults?
Here and in the UK kids are protected from that, unfortuantely the law gives them too much protection so much so that they get away with too much.
But they do need protecting. And regaurdless of laws right or wrong, a child does know whats right and wrong.

Jonno :cool:

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Sounds to me like adults need to be protected, not the kids. You say that u don't know what i want. Like the same i could say about you. First you talk about how unfair some kids can behave and than you want protection for them.
Children need to be protected and parents need to do their job. If they can't watch for their children cause they get divorced or they don't have time its their fault (wrongly raised or without parents) It can't never be their fault, or do you belive that satan made them bad from birth. The problem is in the system or the parents. Maybe you need that law, but than only cause you are incapable to raise the children. Its your choice, if you want to be controlled like a robot. In Yugoslavia there arn't any such things, like they might teach you in school. We are doing well without cameras on every corner of the street and without such laws. And as i know there are always cases of violation against children in USA and UK mostly, in countries where you have the most laws for protection. We don't need such laws and we are going good without them. The problem is in respect.

You're not making much sense.
You sway one way then the other.
Of course children need protecting against things they don't understand and from bad people but they also need to be held accountable for their own actions.
Sounds like where you live is paradise with freedom of speech and no crime, not the picture I know but I guess you never know til you live somewhere.
Also I never said you don't know what you want, not that I know of anyway.
I also never mentioned the USA.
The point being once again is children DO KNOW right from wrong at an early age.
Do you or do you not agree with that?

Although I seriously think you have been blinded as to what really goes on on your streets and would hazzard a guess at you being quite young and fighting from a childs point of view.

Just adding something I thought of, perhaps part of the reason for a bad kid is not due to the parent but possibly from a bad parent of another kid who produces a bad kid who will be looked upto at school.

And you still didn't answer my question of what you would do if a group of 9y/o's put your windows in and slashed your tires, please answer this question in order for me to get more of an idea of your views.

Jonno :cool:

First of all i don't agree with this new law, but i agree with the law that children need to be protected, thats where everybody agrees.
I agree that children know whats right ot wrong but they don't know how somebody feels when they did something wrong to him/her, for them its just fun, they weren't taught to have responsibility or respect. Why they are like that: you heard my oppinion who's fault it is.
On my streets there is nothing serious dangerous going on. Sometimes maybe some get drunk and brake something accidently, and maybe somebody steals some fruit from the trees, what i did also when i was young :D I mean you go to disco and than maybe you drink something and get into troubles. This sounds to me like real youth, nowdays i think kids are more cybre than outside. Not that i heard that somebody in my town murdered someone. For one you can't buy guns anywhere. The only trouble makers are cops here mostly when they come in numbers. :D
There are maybe some gipsy people here that might slash your tires, but not as young as 9. If a 9 year old would do that to me i wouldn't probably even know that it was a 9 year old one, or how would you know who it was ? But, ok :D if i knew who it was i would go to his parents and demand money.

Well that is the first post that actually makes sense to me, would seem that you've altered your perseption somewhat.
I pretty much agree with you on most points there and yes to some degree kids don't unstand the annoyance/hurt they cause but they don't just do it for fun, usually it's to annoy the person they target.
I'm guessing you live somewhere small and quiet if thats the case you are lucky as I now am as this town is pretty crime free, but I've also lived the other side where people are afraid to walk down certain parts of town because of gangs of kids.

So I'm going to sum up with kids DO KNOW what they are doing and IMO anyone who dissagrees is either uneducated to the problem or is blind to it.
The laws all over cross boundries which make it difficult to enforce certain things, the laws need to be more flexable wheras one law can protect a kid in one instance but protect adults and others in another instance.
In otherwords kids NEED to learn respect and discipline and unfortunately the only way that has ever worked has been strong punishments namely in corperal punishment to some degree or at least the threat of it.
If a child skips school it's unfair to punish the parents in most cases but in some it's the right thing to do, this is one instance where the law needs to be more flexable.

Jonno :cool: