The first black Super Bowl coach

I really think the media are having trouble framing this properly.

They trip all over themselves hyping the fact; I actually heard a commentator say this morning that the honor goes to Lovie Smith over Tony Dungy because the Bears won "first".

Dumb, really dumb.

They both merit acclaim, but where does it end?

In two weeks time, we will have the first black coach to win a Super Bowl.

Conversely, we will also have the first black coach to lose a Super Bowl, and though I'd think the fact should be of little note, I'm sure some putz will mention it.

I've always thought it a shame that anyone would think a black coach couldn't win a Super Bowl because of his skin color; ironic, now, that the media can't manage to account for the achievements of these two men more gracefully than they have...:dabs:

Bears win, BTW; I still can't stand the Colts because of that prick Irsay. :angry:

granted yes one will be the first black coach to win the superbowl, but i don't think it was necessary to make such a big deal about it. in the end black or white, they are just football coaches.

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Originally Posted by j2k4

I really think the media are having trouble framing this properly.

They trip all over themselves hyping the fact; I actually heard a commentator say this morning that the honor goes to Lovie Smith over Tony Dungy because the Bears won "first".

Dumb, really dumb.

They both merit acclaim, but where does it end?

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I don't think it merits a damn thing.

The only people keeping this discussion going is the media. The real world could care less I think.

:wank:

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Originally Posted by Skizo

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Originally Posted by j2k4

I really think the media are having trouble framing this properly.

They trip all over themselves hyping the fact; I actually heard a commentator say this morning that the honor goes to Lovie Smith over Tony Dungy because the Bears won "first".

Dumb, really dumb.

They both merit acclaim, but where does it end?

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I don't think it merits a damn thing.

The only people keeping this discussion going is the media. The real world could care less I think.

:wank:

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:lol: :lol: You are clueless then.

I dont understand why its so big. sure, maybe for the african-americans, who can now tell their kids that they can do anything when they grow-up. a coach is a coach.

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Originally Posted by maebach

I dont understand why its so big. sure, maybe for the african-americans, who can now tell their kids that they can do anything when they grow-up. a coach is a coach.

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You, sir, are not clueless. Some people only know their world....which is cool to an extent but it makes them clueless. The ability to change perspectives is alien to them.

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Originally Posted by Busyman™

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Originally Posted by Skizo

I don't think it merits a damn thing.

The only people keeping this discussion going is the media. The real world could care less I think.

:wank:

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:lol: :lol: You are clueless then.

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How so?

My friends haven't said a word about it.
My family hasn't either.
No mention of it at work amongst co-workers, though plenty of SB talk.
Not much on the internet except on ESPN.com, etc. (again, media)

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Originally Posted by Skizo

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Originally Posted by Busyman™

:lol: :lol: You are clueless then.

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How so?

My friends haven't said a word about it.
My family hasn't either.
No mention of it at work amongst co-workers, though plenty of SB talk.
Not much on the internet except on ESPN.com, etc. (again, media)

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Right on cue. See the post above yours.

The fact that you couldn't fathom it being a big deal to black folk makes you clueless....not necessarily black folk that you know but black folk.

Do you think the media dreamt this stuff up?

At the same time, I applaud Tony Dungy when asked about it at the trophy ceremony basically deflecting it and saying that this was a day for the Indianapolis Colts.

I remember when people talked about the paucity, fuck scratch that, the nonexistence of black coaches in the league. Now no one talks about it.
The same went for black QBs and a black QB winning the Superbowl.

On all of those, no one talks about it anymore besides the fact of remembering it.

After this SB, it will be remembered but not really talked about 2 years down the road. Well maybe the fact that 2 made it at the same time (fuck that Lovie made it first stuff).

This same talk happened in the boxing world long ago.

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Originally Posted by Busyman™

The fact that you couldn't fathom it being a big deal to black folk makes you clueless....not necessarily black folk that you know but black folk.

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Where did I say, "I couldn't fathom it"? I said it doesn't merit "acclaim".

Are you going to sleep better after the SB knowing a black coach, coached the winning team? That's not an achievement, it's a matter of time. I don't even think it worthy of discussion tbh.

Oh well, one less thing for you to worry about I guess. Better step up and start asking why we don't have any oriental coaches......... fucking racist NFL. :whistling

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Originally Posted by j2k4

Conversely, we will also have the first black coach to lose a Super Bowl, and though I'd think the fact should be of little note, I'm sure some putz will mention it.

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That's a little self-harsh. I don't think of you as a putz, merely a little clumsy with wordular context at times :)

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I think this is a big deal for black folk in America. It is the same here in soccer because the proportional dearth of black managers in the top tier (indeed any tier) of professional football does rather stick out. If a black manager coached his team to the Premier League title, it would mean a great deal to current black football players who aspire to be a manager when they hang up their boots. Not so much youngsters because what teenager aspires to be a manager rather than a player.

Some outspoken black managers (like Paul Ince at Macclesfield) blame institutional racism but I can't attribute it to that. It was only 20-25 years ago that the England team had its first black player and now (proportionately, given the populace of England) there are more black players in the squad than white.

I think now a precident has been set, the floodgates will open and you'll see a lot more black coaches taking teams to the Superbowl. The mental barrier will be gone.

So, it is a big deal and the media are right to treat it as such.

It depends on which particular species of political correctness one wishes to adopt. It's quite cool to say "Huh it's no big deal, why are you making a fuss about this, you are being racist". Or one can say "Well done chaps, huzzah from breaking thro' that glass ceiling, you have forged the way for those to follow." However those who take that stance are accused of being racist and patronising.

Im my view history often makes more of these events than contemporary reporting. It does so because it can see what, if anything resulted from them.

I'm in the "huzzah" camp, but in an under-stated way.

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Originally Posted by manker

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Originally Posted by j2k4

Conversely, we will also have the first black coach to lose a Super Bowl, and though I'd think the fact should be of little note, I'm sure some putz will mention it.

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That's a little self-harsh. I don't think of you as a putz, merely a little clumsy with wordular context at times :)

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I think this is a big deal for black folk in America. It is the same here in soccer because the proportional dearth of black managers in the top tier (indeed any tier) of professional football does rather stick out. If a black manager coached his team to the Premier League title, it would mean a great deal to current black football players who aspire to be a manager when they hang up their boots. Not so much youngsters because what teenager aspires to be a manager rather than a player.

Some outspoken black managers (like Paul Ince at Macclesfield) blame institutional racism but I can't attribute it to that. It was only 20-25 years ago that the England team had its first black player and now (proportionately, given the populace of England) there are more black players in the squad than white.

I think now a precident has been set, the floodgates will open and you'll see a lot more black coaches taking teams to the Superbowl. The mental barrier will be gone.

So, it is a big deal and the media are right to treat it as such.

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:)

I have to slightly disagree there about the lack institutional racism over here especially given the number of black football players in the league going pretty far back. However, over time people change, younger folks speak out that don't harbor old racism, and simple greed and hiring those best for the job win out.

@Skiz - you are clueless, man, and I mean that in a friendly kinda way.

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Originally Posted by Busyman

However, over time people change, younger folks speak out that don't harbor old racism, and simple greed and hiring those best for the job win out.

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Fucking good point. Owners want to win and to make money. So they buy the best players they can. The NBA is a brilliant example of that, what with all the powerful, tall black players dominating the sport.

I know there are other socio-economic factors re availability of courts etc, but that's more about how the black players get to be the best, not how they are treated once they get there.

Here's a thought. Is it possible that the acceptance of black people as sporting stars has had a huge positive effect in inter race relationships in the USA.

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Originally Posted by Skizo

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Originally Posted by Busyman™

The fact that you couldn't fathom it being a big deal to black folk makes you clueless....not necessarily black folk that you know but black folk.

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Where did I say, "I couldn't fathom it"? I said it doesn't merit "acclaim".

Are you going to sleep better after the SB knowing a black coach, coached the winning team? That's not an achievement, it's a matter of time. I don't even think it worthy of discussion tbh.

Oh well, one less thing for you to worry about I guess. Better step up and start asking why we don't have any oriental coaches......... fucking racist NFL. :whistling

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What's the proportion of oriental players in the NFL? Now what about blacks?

You don't see much hoopla over black coaches in the NHL, do you?

You wouldn't think discussion worthy cuz you are a clueless white person as opposed those that are white and not clueless.

In essence, and as I've said before, that's cool. You know your own little box of the world. However, there are those that know that the first black Superbowl coach is significant even if not significant too them....ironically some of them are brat soccer fans. Figure that.:dabs:

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Originally Posted by Mr JP Fugley

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Originally Posted by Busyman

However, over time people change, younger folks speak out that don't harbor old racism, and simple greed and hiring those best for the job win out.

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Fucking good point. Owners want to win and to make money. So they buy the best players they can. The NBA is a brilliant example of that, what with all the powerful, tall black players dominating the sport.

I know there are other socio-economic factors re availability of courts etc, but that's more about how the black players get to be the best, not how they are treated once they get there.

Here's a thought. Is it possible that the acceptance of black people as sporting stars has had a huge positive effect in inter race relationships in the USA.

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....and the NBA even goes outside of the US like never before to get foreign talent, black, white, or asian.

Hire the best for the job. Greed > Institutional racism. Does an owner wanna win or be a losing racist prick?

I'm still a bit non-plussed at the media's handling of this.

This is (no doubt) an achievement for both coaches, however, I think that for racism to ever begin to be considered outmoded, celebratory thought ought to be a bit muted, and more-so as time goes by.

Example:

Today, I heard the topic being discussed in terms of black pride, which term has always struck me as atonal, given the reaction one could count on for using the term white pride.

Isn't the whole thing about equality?

As I said before, I think merely noting the achievement should be sufficient; poring over it, dwelling on it, harping on it, have the effect of perpetuating that which we seek (or maybe not, I can't account for the like of Jesse and Al) to defeat racism and move beyond it.

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Originally Posted by j2k4

I'm still a bit non-plussed at the media's handling of this.

This is (no doubt) an achievement for both coaches, however, I think that for racism to ever begin to be considered outmoded, celebratory thought ought to be a bit muted, and more-so as time goes by.

Example:

Today, I heard the topic being discussed in terms of black pride, which term has always struck me as atonal, given the reaction one could count on for using the term white pride.

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No, no, no, no, no.

The celebration is that another brick from the racist wall has been knocked down. This is something to be celebrated. It is something for your people to be proud of, you have taken another step forward. It's not something that any particular section of your society should be proud of. It's something that you all should be proud of.

As manker said earlier, or at least implied, it is to be hoped that we are going the same way. It's hard to accept that the number of non-white soccer managers is as it should be.

With regard to your second point, the matter of black pride was being discussed with regard to a particular context. Black people rightly being proud of chaps achieving the ultimate within their chosen field. For the first time in that field.

White pride has entirely different connotations. Unless you were to use it in something like heavyweight boxing, where a phrase like "The Great White Hope", would be entirely acceptable. Well until reasonably recently, when a couple of big Russkies showed they could fight a bit.

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Originally Posted by Mr JP Fugley

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Originally Posted by j2k4

I'm still a bit non-plussed at the media's handling of this.

This is (no doubt) an achievement for both coaches, however, I think that for racism to ever begin to be considered outmoded, celebratory thought ought to be a bit muted, and more-so as time goes by.

Example:

Today, I heard the topic being discussed in terms of black pride, which term has always struck me as atonal, given the reaction one could count on for using the term white pride.

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No, no, no, no, no.

The celebration is that another brick from the racist wall has been knocked down. This is something to be celebrated. It is something for your people to be proud of, you have taken another step forward. It's not something that any particular section of your society should be proud of. It's something that you all should be proud of.

As manker said earlier, or at least implied, it is to be hoped that we are going the same way. It's hard to accept that the number of non-white soccer managers is as it should be.

With regard to your second point, the matter of black pride was being discussed with regard to a particular context. Black people rightly being proud of chaps achieving the ultimate within their chosen field. For the first time in that field.

White pride has entirely different connotations. Unless you were to use it in something like heavyweight boxing, where a phrase like "The Great White Hope", would be entirely acceptable. Well until reasonably recently, when a couple of big Russkies showed they could fight a bit.

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Who, then, will ever be able to say the last brick of the "racist wall" has been disposed of?

BTW-

The Russkies you mentioned are white, are they not.

My point is relative to the expression of celebration, but moreover the media's role in forming it.

To expand, we've had a few discussions about media bias here-about, and in this case, the media has demonstrated the tendency to "not let it go" after a question or two.

Just these past few weeks, we've had a snootful of Nancy Pelosi being feted as the first woman to hold the post of Speaker of the U.S. House of Representatives.

Six-plus years ago, Colin Powell was named the first black Secretary of State.

He was succeeded a few years ago by a black lady, name of Condoleezza Rice, who recorded another "first".

Now, I pay as much attention to politics and media affairs as anyone.

I can claim a working knowledge of racial affairs as well.

I don't remember either of these two achievements being recognized to any extent.

If the media catches some, but misses or dismisses others, should we trust them to give any such milestones proper treatment?

Perhaps we should use Occum's Razor here and accept that, for media purposes and sales figures, Sport > Politics.

In short, how many Americans give a fuck about the first black <insert political position here> as opposed to Coach of a Superbowl Team. Now that's big news.

"The Russkies you mentioned are white, are they not." Was kind of my point, they eliminated the need for a "Great White Hope", which was never considered a racist phrase, within the confines of heavyweight boxing.

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Originally Posted by j2k4

I'm still a bit non-plussed at the media's handling of this.

This is (no doubt) an achievement for both coaches, however, I think that for racism to ever begin to be considered outmoded, celebratory thought ought to be a bit muted, and more-so as time goes by.

Example:

Today, I heard the topic being discussed in terms of black pride, which term has always struck me as atonal, given the reaction one could count on for using the term white pride.

Isn't the whole thing about equality?

As I said before, I think merely noting the achievement should be sufficient; poring over it, dwelling on it, harping on it, have the effect of perpetuating that which we seek (or maybe not, I can't account for the like of Jesse and Al) to defeat racism and move beyond it.

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As Skizo said in so many words, it's not even an achievement. It's some shit that just happened over time.:dry:

Tbh, most of my coworkers are black and while we are happy about it (the wins)....that's really the extent of it. I wouldn't go as so far as to say that we have this euphoria of black pride but we did root for Indy and Da Bears cuz of the black coaches.

Next time we'll root for the teams we really like.:lol:

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Originally Posted by Busyman™

Tbh, most of my coworkers are black and while we are happy about it (the wins)....that's really the extent of it. I wouldn't go as so far as to say that we have this euphoria of black pride but we did root for Indy and Da Bears cuz of the black coaches.

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Would you imagine your view of things (which I would regard as perfectly appropriate, not that what I think matters, mind) to be typical among blacks?

Do you agree that the media is overdoing it, by dint of their repetitiveness, if nothing else?

The media is all over this and will ring it right to the end, right untill the Bears hold up the prize!!!

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Originally Posted by j2k4

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Originally Posted by Busyman™

Tbh, most of my coworkers are black and while we are happy about it (the wins)....that's really the extent of it. I wouldn't go as so far as to say that we have this euphoria of black pride but we did root for Indy and Da Bears cuz of the black coaches.

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Would you imagine your view of things (which I would regard as perfectly appropriate, not that what I think matters, mind) to be typical among blacks?

Do you agree that the media is overdoing it, by dint of their repetitiveness, if nothing else?

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Yes and to your second, not really.

I watch Jim Rome, PTI, and the news and probably haven't seen it as bad as you have.

Each show that I've seen has brought it up and then moved on.

Bringing up that Lovie is the first is just dumb.:dry: If I had seen that then my answer would have changed.

this couldnt have happened to a nicer guy. dungy will be one of the best coaches to ever coach the game.