Will the US or Israel attack Iran?

I thought I'd get this in early, in case they do, as many people seemed to have missed the lies and bullshit that led to the present debacle in Iraq.


John Pilger, February 1st, 2007.

The United States is planning what will be a catastrophic attack on Iran. For the Bush cabal, the attack will be a way of “buying time” for its disaster in Iraq. In announcing what he called a “surge” of American troops in Iraq, George W Bush identified Iran as his real target. “We will interrupt the flow of support [to the insurgency in Iraq] from Iran and Syria”, he said. “And we will seek out and destroy the networks providing advanced weaponry and training to our enemies in Iraq.”

“Networks” means Iran. “There is solid evidence,” said a State Department spokesman on 24 January, “that Iranian agents are involved in these networks and that they are working with individuals and groups in Iraq and are being sent there by the Iranian government.” Like Bush’s and Blair’s claim that they had irrefutable evidence that Saddam Hussein was deploying weapons of mass destruction, the “evidence” lacks all credibility. Iran has a natural affinity with the Shia majority of Iraq, and has been implacably opposed to al-Qaeda, condemning the 9/11 attacks and supporting the United States in Afghanistan. Syria has done the same. Investigations by the New York Times, the Los Angeles Times and others, including British military officials, have concluded that Iran is not engaged in the cross-border supply of weapons. General Peter Pace, chairman of the US Joint Chiefs of Staff, has said no such evidence exists.

The full article.

No

The US do appear to have contingency plans for such an attack...

The US have contigency plans for everything, including attacking themselves. It doesn't mean it will happen.

Even they know that attacking Iran would be insane, and about as popular as contracting syphilis.

If there is an attack against Iran I believe it will be for ideological reason over threat assessment.
It's very possible that someone in Iran is supplying arms to small factions, this doesn't mean that it's done officially with government approval. The IRA raised a lot of money from people in the USA, this does not mean that the US government or the US population were supporting terrorists. [gratuitous dig at right wingers] terrorist money and terrorist supporters get around [/gratuitous dig at right wingers] ;)
What I find interesting is that the bulk of the violence against US/coalition troops is at the hands of the Sunnis, who are supported by Saudis, yet this is largely ignored.

AQ is building up again in Afghanistan and probably the most dangerous area is Pakistan which is already nuclear and just a gnats hair away from being controlled by anti western radicals, yet all eyes are looking at Iran.:dry:

Now I am not saying that Iran is no threat. What I am saying is that there are much bigger threats out there. Threats that have attacked us already.

I saw it on the BBC news yesterday. My opinion is, only a fool would make such an attack on Iran...so, I suppose it will be Bush.

I personally think there will be some sort of attack within the next 4-5 years.. (during my army service in the IDF..), Israel? Probably not the leader, but will take a role in attacking.. leaders? UK/US.. partners? France.. to be honest, I even see Russia joining in if they had a nice deal with the Maericans on the outcome... but who knows.

Only time will tell...



Tick... tick..... tick......




boom.

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Originally Posted by tralalala

I personally think there will be some sort of attack within the next 4-5 years.. (during my army service in the IDF..), Israel? Probably not the leader, but will take a role in attacking.. leaders? UK/US.. partners? France.. to be honest, I even see Russia joining in if they had a nice deal with the Maericans on the outcome... but who knows.

Only time will tell...



Tick... tick..... tick......




boom.

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IMO an attack on ran is fast becoming an No No. The only way America will attack is if Israeli attacks first. The UK would not become involved.
When are the Americans going to learn that any invasion and occupation of another country will just become another Vietnam. Grenada being the exception.
If only people would learn through history. When ever has Afghanistan been defeated by an invading country? All the major western countries have tried and up to date have failed.

Maybe if Israel got rid of their nuclear weapons then that might help negotiations with Iran. I think I have more chance winning the Lottery.:)

Please don't.

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Originally Posted by 100%

Please don't.

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Win the Lottery or invade Iran?:wacko:

Please don't bomb Iran.

Seeing as how the zionists and neo-cons in the U.S. government dragged us into the iraqi war on a false pretense ,for the sake of israel and oil, i wouldn't be surprised if they did. I'm not surprised either at how little the media pays attention to the Israeli Nuclear program.

israel will definitely eventually attack Iran, because they are Iran

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Originally Posted by tacoflavakiss

israel will definitely eventually attack Iran, because they are Iran

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GW is that you? :blink:

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Originally Posted by Biggles

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Originally Posted by tacoflavakiss

israel will definitely eventually attack Iran, because they are Iran

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GW is that you? :blink:

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lol....quality...that put a smile on my face..thanks

Israel cannot afford to stop it's nuclear program.. We are surrounded by hatred.. and we are a little droplet compared to the size of the nations around us.. Having this weapon, which sort of "frightens".. or, well.. deters the surrounding people, is the only way we can feel somewhat safer.

Do you think you'd ever use them though? I was kind of expecting you to use them in '91 when Saddam sent his Scuds over.

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Originally Posted by tralalala

Israel cannot afford to stop it's nuclear program.. We are surrounded by hatred.. and we are a little droplet compared to the size of the nations around us.. Having this weapon, which sort of "frightens".. or, well.. deters the surrounding people, is the only way we can feel somewhat safer.

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What rubbish, they deter no-one, they are there only as another way of big noting themselves in the region ... how many suicide bombers have they deterred? How many missiles have they deterred? Now Iran will build a bomb to counter Israeli aggression, then Saudi Arabia will get one to counter Iran and eventually all Israel's neighbours will have them ... then what?

If Israel wants to feel safe it should end it's illegal occupation of the Palestinian territories and abide by UN resolutions.

Oh bloody hell not this again......

Don't you think it would be a bit stupid using a nuclear bomb in the territories without actually destroying half of the state (Israel that is) itself...? :huh:
It's there to deter people who want to kill thousands at a time.. not the odd 3 or 4.. (over 2006 only some 14 were killed as a result of a suicide attack.. as opposed to well over 400 in 2002..... not that that fact has anything to do with the nuclear weapons.. just a result of better intelligence).
Now, I doubt Iran is building it's "peace" nuclear powerstations to counter the Israeli "threat".. more like to piss off the Americans.. don't you think?

Israel didn't use them during the first Gulf war because the US "told them so".. it was between Bush (the daddy) and Saddam.. he shot at us because he couldn't reach the US.. Iran are using the same threat, only this time they have better rockets than those crappy Scud missiles - thus making the threat much more serious......

The weapons are there to deter. Fact.
It's just to show the people who want us down and out that hey.. we have these weapons, dunno if we'll use them, but they exist..... Depends how much you're willing to push I guess. I believe that if Israel actually felt it was being threatened, and that it would be "wiped off the face of the world", then those weapons would eventually, and unfortunately come into use.


About "feeling safe" - How the hell can you say, that leaving the "occupied territories" (I wonder if you also mean areas like the whole off Jerusalem, the south of the country, the northern areas etc.. depends if you are talking of the '67 territories or the '48 territories.. you could even go further into history back some 4000 years too.. it's up to you). Obviously you cannot accept the fact that these people will accept an agreement and not crave for more.. Trust me, it's their mentality. I'm not a racist... I really am not, but I know who we are dealing with.. I know these people, I see them daily on the TV screens, papers, PC etc.. I know them. I also know the typical Israeli.. and unfortunately, getting them both to talk is extremely difficult. No side wants to give up, every side thinks they are right, and no one will listen. It's been like this forever.. I doubt it's going to change, unless finally the Americans/Brits stop thinking about how the "peace talks" will make them look on their own press back home, and actually try to reach a long-term solution... Otherwise, the bloodshed will keep coming.. god knows how many more people will need to lose their lives until 2 people, one on each side, who rule the people's, will be able to properly interact and reach an answer...

I like my neighbors, I like the Arab food, culture.. I really do enjoy walking through the Old City in Jerusalem, through the Arab market... It's really something special, but sadly there still is a tingle in the spine as I walk those streets and alleyways knowing that there still is a slight chance that maybe someone will jump out and stab me for being who I am. I can't wait for those days to end. And when they do, I know that Palestine and Israel can live freely together and have proper tourism in the 2 states.. There is plenty to see in the west bank too (Jericho, Bethlehem...) just as much as there is to see in Israel... Then, and only then will there finally be harmony around this place where thousands and thousands of people have lost their lives over ignorance and bigotry...

Iran will erase Israel, I hope to

I think, first of all, that John Pilger qualifies as an ex-pat-Australian-transplant-leftist-flake, and his opinions are certainly no more worthwhile than anyone else's; mine, for example, or Billy's.

He represents one extreme, and no more effectively then his opposite, whomever that might be.

Hmmm.

I am compelled to start another thread, using a few cut-and-paste tidbits I've read lately...

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Originally Posted by tralala

How the hell can you say, that leaving the "occupied territories ..

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You didn't finish this sentence, but I take it you mean how can leaving the occupied territories bring peace?

Where is the trouble now? Where are the confrontations? Where are the barriers? Where are the roadblocks? Where are the Palestinian houses being demolished? Where are the orchards and olive groves being razed to the ground? Where are the illegal settlements? Are they in Israel or the Palestinian Territories? We hear a lot about Israel "defending" itself against Palestinians, without mentioning that they are "defending" themselves on illegally occupied land.

The key to peace is the 1967 borders, simple, everyone has said so, including Hamas. The biggest problem for Israel is the right-wing religious arseholes whose agenda is to clear the whole of 'Greater Israel' of Arabs, unfortunately no-one can form a government without them. In an example of gross double standards, not unusual in this conflict, these religious nutcases aren't made to accept Palestine's right to exist, yet the legally elected government of the Palestinians are being starved into accepting Israel's right to exist. The fact that they have accepted an Israeli state behind the 1967 borders mean nothing, they are expected to accept Israel unconditionally, which, to Israel, means the occupied territories also.

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Originally Posted by j2k4

I think, first of all, that John Pilger qualifies as an ex-pat-Australian-transplant-leftist-flake, and his opinions are certainly no more worthwhile than anyone else's; mine, for example, or Billy's.

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Are you up for a little challenge j2?

I challenge you to go to Pilger's site and read his articles, then find one you actually agree with, just to prove you're capable of putting your right wing prejudices to one side.

John Pilger

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Originally Posted by 1Man

Iran will erase Israel, I hope to

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Do you really? And why's that? What have I done to deserve being killed? Being a Jew? Being in a country that's doing better than yours? Eh?
It's sad that people like you listen to freaking fucked up leaders like Ahmadinejad who seems to be obsessed with Israel and Jews just like Hitler was.. and look what happened to him.......



In response to Ava:
You're right.. The religious parties have power here.. a known fact for the past few decades, but that doesn't mean that you could encourage the other parties to handle the talks.
You say Israel is still demolishing houses... Afraid not.
The olive trees being "razed to the ground" - That's what the settlers do.. sort of their own counterattack to the terrorists.. Not acceptable though I'll tell you that.. they are nutters.. honestly.. I've seen them personally.
Unfortunately, abroad, you only get half of the picture.. You can't watch the Palestinian footage and decide that's it and we'll go abiding that footage. You need to see the whole story. Watch both Israeli and Palestinian news, then decide who's right/wrong or who's brainwashing etc.. You have to understand that Israelis are far more liberal than any other Muslim/Arab country around.. Thus we are developing faster (technologically.. socially..).


You need the whole, not half.




Another note to 1Man: Hope you get a pole stuck up your ass like Ahmadinejad will when he goes to far.

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Originally Posted by tralalala

In response to Ava:
You're right.. The religious parties have power here.. a known fact for the past few decades, but that doesn't mean that you could encourage the other parties to handle the talks.

What does that mean? Without the religious, non-working, non-tax paying nutcases, there would be a chance of decent peace negotiations, or are you saying there are no politicians in Israel capable of bringing peace?

You say Israel is still demolishing houses... Afraid not.

They're not demolishing houses still? Are you serious? Israeli soldiers demolished homes in three Palestinian villages near bypass road 317 on 14 February, it's a common occurrence. Ask a Palestinian what it's like getting a permit to build in East Jerusalem, then ask what happens to their houses if they build on their own land without a permit, and who then claims the land.

The Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions

The olive trees being "razed to the ground" - That's what the settlers do.. sort of their own counterattack to the terrorists..

The settlers are Israeli, supported by the Israeli government and protected by the Israeli army, don't play semantics with this.

Unfortunately, abroad, you only get half of the picture.. You can't watch the Palestinian footage and decide that's it and we'll go abiding that footage. You need to see the whole story. Watch both Israeli and Palestinian news, then decide who's right/wrong or who's brainwashing etc..

It's not easy to watch both sides because the majority of Western media, especially US media, is hugely biased towards Israel. Getting Israel's side of the story is easy, it's getting to the truth that takes some digging.

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If you were really interested in peace you would refuse to serve your military service in the occupied territories.

:lol: Ever watched the BBC? Ever seen Keith Graves on Sky..?

The settlers are supported by the extreme right wingers... If it were up to the left wingers, or me, they would have been out of there and behind bars ages ago.. But that's just me.

Can you build anywhere in the US/UK without getting a permit? Seriously asking.
If only you saw how the Arabs build their villages around Israel and in the PA.. It's like a maze :lol: (That has nothing to do with the above question.. just a side note).

I never said that without the religious you cannot have peace.. it's just that for peace you need a majority in the parliament which isn't the case as of yet..



I won't need to refuse that type of service.. I'm going to be a pilot :D I had my first call-up on Tuesday.. was OK, got the highest medical profile.. did the IQ examintaions which went fine, and am hoping to get a letter inviting me for further examinations to get into the Air Force :)

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Originally Posted by tralalala

I won't need to refuse that type of service.. I'm going to be a pilot :D

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Well done. :D

Now what will you do if you get asked to fly the plane carrying the atom bomb to drop on Tehran? :unsure:

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Originally Posted by Ava Estelle

Are you up for a little challenge j2?

I challenge you to go to Pilger's site and read his articles, then find one you actually agree with, just to prove you're capable of putting your right wing prejudices to one side.

John Pilger

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I'll do it when I have time; for now, I've got a little challenge for you:

Explain coherently why in my case it is a benighted "right-wing prejudice", but in your case it is the vision of the anointed?

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Originally Posted by j2k4

Explain coherently why in my case it is a benighted "right-wing prejudice", but in your case it is the vision of the anointed?

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Well it's nice of you to bestow that title on me, but that's not how I see it, and my left-wing mates call me right of centre, I see things that I don't consider fair, and don't give a fuck who I upset by pointing them out. :)

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Originally Posted by tralalala

:lol: Ever watched the BBC? Ever seen Keith Graves on Sky..?

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I'm in Australia, and don't get the BBC or Sky.

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Originally Posted by tralalala

Can you build anywhere in the US/UK without getting a permit? Seriously asking.

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We're talking about the Israeli government telling Palestinians in OCCUPIED East Jerusalem that they need a permit to build on their own land. When they apply for permits they are ignored. When they build on their own land they are demolished and the land confiscated.

@Barbarosa: If I am sent on a mission to bomb Tehran.. I'll do it.

@Ava: If you see East Jerusalem as "illegally occupied territories", then, in your sense, 85% of the Israeli state is illegally "owned"... Sorry, but during wars things change, and during peace, things change. East Jerusalem is part of the state of Israel.. Fact. People in East Jerusalem get health service, get paid insurance, have a blue I.D card (meaning you are a citizen of Israel), therefor, you will also need a permit to build there, just as you need a permit to build anywhere else in Israel. The irony here is that some bigots in East Jerusalem, are not only living on Israeli insurance money, but also are part of the Palestinian parliament (Mohammed Abu-Tir for instance). If they had to choose whether to be part of Israel, or live under Palestinian government? I'm almost positive they would choose the first option.
So, that's about East Jerusalem (which will be given back as part of a peace treaty, but as of now it's still Israel.. just like the Golan Heights).


And just to let you know.. BBC, and the Sky correspondent to the Middle East (Keith Graves), show the Israelis as the "bad guys" and the Palestinians as the "poor people getting hit for doing nothing".. It's not all showing Israel in the brighter light.

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Originally Posted by tralalala

If you see East Jerusalem as "illegally occupied territories", then, in your sense, 85% of the Israeli state is illegally "owned"...

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Boy, you really are one-sided! Israel invaded the Palestinian territories in 1967 and ILLEGALLY occupied them, including East Jerusalem. Under the terms of the Geneva convention they have no right to annexe any part of the territory taken. They have no right to allow citizens of Israel to build there, and no right to demolish Palestinian homes. Along with these abuses, they also have no right to inflict collective punishment of the Palestinians, something they have done for decades.

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Originally Posted by tralalala

Sorry, but during wars things change, and during peace, things change. East Jerusalem is part of the state of Israel.. Fact.

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NOT fact ... East Jerusalem is illegally occupied, it is NOT part of the state of Israel, and neither is the Golan Heights. Things do NOT change during wars, that's what the Geneva convention is all about.

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And just to let you know.. BBC, and the Sky correspondent to the Middle East (Keith Graves), show the Israelis as the "bad guys" and the Palestinians as the "poor people getting hit for doing nothing".. It's not all showing Israel in the brighter light.

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So what? I've already told you I don't watch either of them, and I am old enough and intelligent enough to make up my own mind without TV programs.

Do you know what the Palestinian territories even are? They are Egypt and Jordan. Up to 1967, the West Bank and East Jerusalem was JORDAN and the Gaza strip was Egypt. They were invaded as part of an unwanted WAR. When Israel wanted to give back Gaza as part of the peace treaty with Egypt they said no. So we were stuck with them. Jordan got water as part of the peace treaty with them, not the land.
So, we now see that the PA is actually not the PA, but bits of other states... Illegally occupied by... who?

You say Israelis cannot build in East Jerusalem.. In which case, none of East Jerusalem residents can build there, as they are ALL Israeli citizens.. by choice. Don't tell me they are not, because each and every oe of them has an Israeli ID card.

The Golan heights ARE part of Israel and have been for 40 years, they were annexed. Syria want them back. Fine.. when the time comes for peace they'll get it, but for the past 40 years Syria and Israel have signed a paper every so long that says no one will attack the other side, keeping a status-quo... Been like that for ages with no problems for 40 years now.

You're old enough to make your mind up... may I ask what helps you make up your mind if not the media? :)

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Originally Posted by tralalala

Do you know what the Palestinian territories even are?

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Talking with you is a complete waste of time. Israel does not write international law, and making people carry ID cards does not make them Israeli citizens. Israel holds all the cards here, if they want peace they should abide by UN resolutions, full stop, if they don't, they deserve all they get, suicide bombers and all. I just hope Iran hurries up with their bomb, then maybe the US and Israel will talk and act peace instead of running around like a couple of bullies stirring up shit and acting like they own the whole fucking world!

:lol: It's funny.. really.. Because over there in Oz, you haven't a clue.. Honestly.. I'm not criticizing or something, it's just you're so far away from all the "action".

If BOTH sides were to abide UN resolutions peace would have been round years ago.. Look at the Lebanese borders for a first about that.

If you went to each and every one of these East Jerusalemites you claim are not Israelis and ask if they would give up their citizenship... you'd get a slap in the face. What they get from the Israeli government is leaps and bounds more than they would dream of getting from an eventual Palestinian State government.

Iran is dangerous.. and until they do something bad people won't understand that. Take 9/11 for an example.. Only when the US got hit under the belt they knew what it felt like with these people. Only then did they realize the potential these people have of wrecking the world. Not only is it dangerous Iran would use the bomb, but also them distributing the technology to terrorist groups round the world... Then, the whole world will know what these people are about, and that they mean business. It's like a kid that wrecks things in class.. if you catch him early he may still grow up to be a good guy.. If you let him on the other hand carry on wrecking stuff, he'll be a terrible mistake later on in life.


Just you wait and see....



P.S: It's not a waste of time talking to me, it's getting to know what someone "in the line of fire" thinks and feels about it. You won't find it easy at all to get me to change my point of view.. In fact, almost impossible. I feel the same towards you. I don't think I'll manage to make you think I'm right, without actually showing you literally. I enjoy these conversations, it lets me exhale my feelings over the situation every now and again.. :)

Tra la la

I think your English has improved considerably over the years too :)

I know... I found myself looking at the Israel/Palestine thread that was started by kAb some 4 years ago... amazing.. Thanks :)

I suppose good English could help me if I'm not accepted into the Air Force.. I guess I could always try for the Intelligence units in Israel and/or abroad (like the Mossad.. I guess it's equivalent to the British MI6). But I still have time for that, I need to finish my school studies first (and successfully :lol:).


What's your input on this subject (Israel/Palestine) in response to me and Ava's discussion? What about the Iranian subject? :)



P.S (Offtopic) - How long have you had that picture in your sig..? seems to be as long as I can remember :lol:

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Originally Posted by Ava Estelle

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Originally Posted by j2k4

Explain coherently why in my case it is a benighted "right-wing prejudice", but in your case it is the vision of the anointed?

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Well it's nice of you to bestow that title on me, but that's not how I see it, and my left-wing mates call me right of centre, I see things that I don't consider fair, and don't give a fuck who I upset by pointing them out. :)

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I haven't bestowed anything at all on you, though that is plainly how you see yourself.

I see things as well that I don't consider to be fair, and am not the least bit worried who I piss off by pointing them out.

Insofar as that is true, we are quite the same, yet my question goes unanswered.

You tag me as a right-winger and imply that my opinions are thus invalid, while characterizing yourself as a free-thinking intellectual colossus whose mental emanations are the stuff of light and air.

You challenge me to find a Pilger piece I agree with; I can assure you he's probably written about something that concerns me as it does him, though perhaps not in quite the same way.

You, on the other hand, have opposed me on literally every point I've tried to make during our mutual history here, save a singular agreement about one Bill Gates, which fact, considering your anti-capitalist bent, I marvel over to this very day.

Now, I may be wrong on occasion, more-or-less depending on your political views, but I don't think anyone here would venture that I have been wrong as often as you would have them think.

You are certainly entitled to your opinions, but you should acknowledge you are aware that that is all they are, and to use them as cudgels is not an apt strategy for influencing others, which is, after all, why we do this, right?

There's a story that The Mossad were responsible for assasinating one of the scientists working on the Iranian nuclear programme. That was about a month ago.

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Originally Posted by tralalala

P.S (Offtopic) - How long have you had that picture in your sig..? seems to be as long as I can remember :lol:

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Rafi, that is Biggles. I have seen him on a Saturday night in Kilmarnock.:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Mr JP Fugley

There's a story that The Mossad were responsible for assasinating one of the scientists working on the Iranian nuclear programme. That was about a month ago.

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If I say I'll accept that your story about this story is true without demanding a google, would you mind at all (at all).

I'm sure the U.N. would object to it, but I'm likewise sure the U.N. is not quite so concerned over the issue of survival.