An acceptable and honorable tactic?
Given this is being done in the service of the Iraqi insurgency, should we swallow any outrage we may feel at all (at all). :angry:
Iraqi police say children were decoy in car bombing
By Associated Press
Wednesday, March 21, 2007 - Updated: 12:45 PM EST
BAGHDAD -- Police said Wednesday that children were used in a weekend car bombing in which the driver gained permission to park in a busy shopping area after he pointed out that he was leaving his children in the back seat.
The account appeared to confirm one given Tuesday by a U.S. general. He said children were used in a Sunday bombing in northern Baghdad and labeled it a brutal new tactic put to use by insurgents to battle a five-week-old security crackdown in the capital.
Maj. Gen. Michael Barbero, deputy director for regional operations on the Joint Staff, said the vehicle used in the attack was waved through a U.S. military checkpoint because two children were visible in the back seat. He said it was the first reported use of children in a car bombing in Baghdad.
”Children in the back seat lowered suspicion, (so) we let it move through, they parked the vehicle, the adults run out and detonate it with the children in the back,” Barbero told reporters in Washington. ”The brutality and ruthless nature of this enemy hasn’t changed.”
Other U.S. officials said later that three Iraqi bystanders were killed in the attack near a marketplace in the northern Baghdad neighborhood of Azamiyah, besides the two children, and seven people were injured. The officials had no other details, including the estimated ages of the children.
Lt. Col. Christopher Garver, a U.S. military spokesman in Baghdad, confirmed Barbero’s account but said he couldn’t provide more details.
Two policemen, speaking on condition of anonymity because of security concerns, said the general was referring to a car bomb Sunday that killed eight Iraqis and wounded 28 others in the predominantly Shiite district of Shaab. The attack targeted people cooking food at open-air grills in the street as part of a Shiite Muslim holiday commemorating the anniversary of the Prophet Muhammad’s death.
The reports could not be independently confirmed and key details were missing from the police accounts, such as the ages and genders of the children, whether they were among the victims, and what happened to their bodies.
A senior official in the Shaab police department said an investigation was opened after the owner of a shop in the market district said he and other residents initially told a man he could not park his car on the street but relented after seeing the children in the back seat.
Another police officer also said witnesses had reported seeing two children inside the car before it exploded. He said three other cases had been registered since last year in which women and children were used in parked car bombings, although they reportedly got out of the cars before those explosions.
The U.S. military has warned that insurgents are finding new ways to bypass stepped-up security to kill as many people as possible and spread panic. A series of bombings using toxic chlorine since Jan. 28 also raised concerns.
Insurgent tactics have evolved since the war started four years ago and youths often have been among their victims, but the use of children as decoys would signal a new level of ruthlessness in the fight for control of the capital.
n the deadliest cases, a suicide car bomber sped up to American soldiers distributing candy to children July 2005 and detonated his explosives, killing up to 27 people, including a dozen children and a U.S. soldier.
That occurred about nine months after 35 Iraqi children were killed in a string of bombs that exploded as American troops were handing out candy at a government-sponsored celebration to inaugurate a sewage plant in west Baghdad.
U.S. troops also have said Sunni insurgents send children to check U.S. defenses or warn of approaching patrols, and that Shiite militias encourage children to hurl stones and gasoline bombs at U.S. convoys, hoping to lure American troops into ambushes or provoke them into shooting back.
According to the U.N.’s mission in Iraq, at least 777 children were killed in fighting in 2006.
http://news.bostonherald.com/interna...format=&page=2
Re: An acceptable and honorable tactic?
It happened in the Korean war too. Children were 'pushed' in front of approaching North Koreans. An entrenched soldier in such a position has a choice. Kill the children or die. What would you do?:(
Re: An acceptable and honorable tactic?
It would be nice (for once) if someone could manage a level of outrage akin to, say, that felt over the issue of Darfur, as an example, and absent the now requisite statement assigning blame to the U.S.
Re: An acceptable and honorable tactic?
To be honest J2 it is hard to be surprised at anything that takes place in Iraq any more.
From blowing up pilgrims and children, beheading prisoners with knives to kidnapping, torturing and executing civilians they have covered most bases. Every day is a grisly catalogue. It is not clear from the article above if the children were blown up or whether they legged it too but it would not be a surprise if the children were blown up.
Re: An acceptable and honorable tactic?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Biggles
To be honest J2 it is hard to be surprised at anything that takes place in Iraq any more.
From blowing up pilgrims and children, beheading prisoners with knives to kidnapping, torturing and executing civilians they have covered most bases. Every day is a grisly catalogue. It is not clear from the article above if the children were blown up or whether they legged it too but it would not be a surprise if the children were blown up.
After about ten false-starts in response, I'll settle for "Yeah, I guess so".
Re: An acceptable and honorable tactic?
Yes it is outrageous, there is no excuse. The suffering of any war is inexcusable and usually the innocent are the ones that suffer most.
Barack obama pointed out the other day that the ones suffering in the Israeli situation are the Palestinians. He was immediately attacked as being anti jewish. The ideologues could only see an enemy and no innocent people caught up in the middle.
Suffer the innocent at the hands of ideologues of all brands.
Re: An acceptable and honorable tactic?
The USA has far lost it's way. The poor & weak need to be cared for. Judeo-Christian core values. It's disgusting.
Out of Irag & Afghanistan now.
Let's rebuild the USA.
Re: An acceptable and honorable tactic?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
zapjb
The USA has far lost it's way. The poor & weak need to be cared for. Judeo-Christian core values. It's disgusting.
Out of Irag & Afghanistan now.
Let's rebuild the USA.
The above statement says a lot for the situation in the world.:(
Could you wait until Scotland is independent? Then we might have some extra oil money to help you rebuild.:)
Re: An acceptable and honorable tactic?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
j2k4
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Biggles
To be honest J2 it is hard to be surprised at anything that takes place in Iraq any more.
From blowing up pilgrims and children, beheading prisoners with knives to kidnapping, torturing and executing civilians they have covered most bases. Every day is a grisly catalogue. It is not clear from the article above if the children were blown up or whether they legged it too but it would not be a surprise if the children were blown up.
After about ten false-starts in response, I'll settle for
"Yeah, I guess so".
A bit more than "I guess so".
I was merely pointing out that the moral bankruptcy of whatever we want to call what is happening in Iraq began years ago and that if one were to consider what happens there on a daily basis we would be drained of all emotion - as increasingly Iraqis are becoming. This particular incident is a notch up above the average list of daily horrors but I would contend it is only a notch as they are already at a pretty high level of horror.
The coalition troops who are out there not only contend with possible injury and death but many also come back emotionally scarred from the inhumanity of the scenes they have witnessed.
Re: An acceptable and honorable tactic?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Biggles
Quote:
Originally Posted by
j2k4
After about ten false-starts in response, I'll settle for "Yeah, I guess so".
A bit more than "I guess so".
I was merely pointing out that the moral bankruptcy of whatever we want to call what is happening in Iraq began years ago and that if one were to consider what happens there on a daily basis we would be drained of all emotion - as increasingly Iraqis are becoming. This particular incident is a notch up above the average list of daily horrors but I would contend it is only a notch as they are already at a pretty high level of horror.
The coalition troops who are out there not only contend with possible injury and death but many also come back emotionally scarred from the inhumanity of the scenes they have witnessed.
I realize all of this, Les, but I wonder where are the voices that decry and denounce the like of Abu Ghraib when this stuff happens?
Not a bloody peep.
Re: An acceptable and honorable tactic?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
j2k4
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Biggles
A bit more than "I guess so".
I was merely pointing out that the moral bankruptcy of whatever we want to call what is happening in Iraq began years ago and that if one were to consider what happens there on a daily basis we would be drained of all emotion - as increasingly Iraqis are becoming. This particular incident is a notch up above the average list of daily horrors but I would contend it is only a notch as they are already at a pretty high level of horror.
The coalition troops who are out there not only contend with possible injury and death but many also come back emotionally scarred from the inhumanity of the scenes they have witnessed.
I realize all of this, Les, but I wonder where are the voices that decry and denounce the like of Abu Ghraib when
this stuff happens?
Not a bloody peep.
Maybe that's because there's no-one trying to justify this behaviour.
Re: An acceptable and honorable tactic?
As I understand it atrocities have been going on in Iraq for years, loads of other places too. The only difference is that they are being reported now. Let's not pretend we didn't know things were going on. We are only horrified at that which is brought to our attention.
The fact that we know that billions of people are currently starving can pretty much be ignored. However 2 children being used as a decoy in a bombing, that's appalling.
Re: An acceptable and honorable tactic?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
lynx
Quote:
Originally Posted by
j2k4
I realize all of this, Les, but I wonder where are the voices that decry and denounce the like of Abu Ghraib when this stuff happens?
Not a bloody peep.
Maybe that's because there's no-one trying to justify this behaviour.
Then it is an equation with only one side?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Agrajag
As I understand it atrocities have been going on in Iraq for years, loads of other places too. The only difference is that they are being reported now. Let's not pretend we didn't know things were going on. We are only horrified at that which is brought to our attention.
The fact that we know that billions of people are currently starving can pretty much be ignored. However 2 children being used as a decoy in a bombing, that's appalling.
Billions of people?
Maybe, maybe.
We could feed them with food and agricultural technology rather than money to be mal-appropriated by strongmen and warlords, I suppose.
And you are correct, of course; 2 children being used as decoys in a bombing is appalling, indeed.
Re: An acceptable and honorable tactic?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
j2k4
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Agrajag
As I understand it atrocities have been going on in Iraq for years, loads of other places too. The only difference is that they are being reported now. Let's not pretend we didn't know things were going on. We are only horrified at that which is brought to our attention.
The fact that we know that billions of people are currently starving can pretty much be ignored. However 2 children being used as a decoy in a bombing, that's appalling.
Billions of people?
Maybe, maybe.
Call it three quarters of a billion then. The point isn't really the number it's the perception. We are rightly horrified by sensational stories when we read them. However the really appalling happens on a daily basis. Every second of every day people starve, or are tortured, or are enslaved, or live in fear. Or all of the above. The worst thing is we know about it.
Re: An acceptable and honorable tactic?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Agrajag
Quote:
Originally Posted by
j2k4
Billions of people?
Maybe, maybe.
Call it three quarters of a billion then. The point isn't really the number it's the perception. We are rightly horrified by sensational stories when we read them. However the really appalling happens on a daily basis. Every second of every day people starve, or are tortured, or are enslaved, or live in fear. Or all of the above. The worst thing is we know about it.
Agreed, agreed, and agreed.
