U.s. Foreign Policy

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Originally posted by hobbes@16 June 2003 - 03:51
From the impeachment thread, posted by Echidna:


"i hope he is pleased he has so many blind & reactionary supporters, i don't think they comprehend how soon their great nation is going to crash and burn [$7+ trillion personal debt, 3+ guns per person, >2% of population in prison] civil war II is all but a forgone conclusion, but patriotism emboldens the blind i guess [although i don't think true patriots would support bush]"


Comments?

I'm waiting for Echidna to flesh this out for me because this leaves me scratching my head. 

The cycle of poverty greatly explains the guns, murder rate, and prison population.  We are not amassing weapons against anyone, we are just shooting each other.

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i just think civil conflict is far more likely with these preconditions

• a great divide between the haves and the have-nots
• a large number of arms easily available

the vast personal debt could easily become a contributing factor, as mass refusal of credit would invoke considerable antagonism

you're not quite correct, i agree that guns in america are mostly used by americans who are just shooting other americans, [usually poor americans]
but the naval fleet, the USAF and all their collective cruise missiles are not being amassed against americans are they? and their not being amassed for non-americans either.

[more than 3 guns per person in the USA is a stat not including firearms held by military or police agencies - i don't know what the number of arms is including these armories]

PS. i really really hope that the USA doesn't crumble very soon, the global destabilisation which would follow will be akin to the dark ages after the fall of the western roman empire. and the results in north america would be worse than i care to imagine
So please vote carefully :unsure: [but make sure you do vote] if you're in the USA :: Clocker seems a good candidate :D

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more than 3 guns per person in the USA is a stat not including firearms held by military or police agencies

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I know this is a bit OT so Ill keep it short but....

Canada also has a large number of guns in public ownership, yet their murder rate is tiny in comparison to the US. What is it that causes Americans to kill each other with unnerving regularity whilst the nation next door doesnt? Answers on a postcard please :)

http://galleries.vinyamar.com/ps/sho...lq9ri&ext=.gif

I have been seeking new employment...

Echinda
You are quite correct in your assessments of what would happen should the US default on it's debt.
The world economy would spiral into the great abyss.
Not to mention the ensuing wars that would surely follow.

On one hand, it is your burning desire for such a thing to happen.
On the other hand, you think for a moment and you know, that your wish would send the world into utter kaos.
Your intense hatred for this country almost overwhelms your common sense.

Btw, what program did you use to make your avatar?

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Originally posted by ShockAndAwe^i^@17 June 2003 - 14:03
Echinda
You are quite correct in your assessments of what would happen should the US default on it's debt.
The world economy would spiral into the great abyss.
Not to mention the ensuing wars that would surely follow.

On one hand, it is your burning desire for such a thing to happen.
On the other hand, you think for a moment and you know, that your wish would send the world into utter kaos.
Your intense hatred for this country almost overwhelms your common sense.

Btw, what program did you use to make your avatar?

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really i'd rather that the USA would 'step out of the vehicle, drop the weapon to the curb and discuss this situation like a grown-up'

i don't want americans or anyone else getting hurt or killed
the wish you insinuate is not mine [maybe osama's] i want the USA to wake up and start making its bed afresh [before it's too late (if it isn't already)]

BTW chaos means a condition or place of great disorder or confusion. while KAOS was the fictitious evil organisation battled by the organisation CONTROL in the television series 'get smart'.

:lol:
Yeah..I guess your right.
http://www.floydianslip.com/discs/coverscans/rk.gif
It is also the title of this album by roger waters of pink floyd.
Musta been what I was thinking.

You still didn't say what prog you used for your avatar.

OKydoky ;)
the avatar http://echidna.by.ru/img/sig_000/psychoaumy_001.gif
i made with xara3d version 5 [using textures made with MM fireworks MX + eyecandy4000 plugins], i then edited that animation with MM fireworks MX, but i'm a fussy software slut :D

:blink: [BTW. do you see the avatar animated? (there should also be two animations on either side of the pirate flag in my sig) i can't see the animations when i access the images from the remote server i use to host them, but they work fine on my local system?!¡?¿¡! so i've been wondering where the problem is?] :blink:

i wonder if roger was a get smart fan? :)

I'm not sure I have anything to add-and I was sooooo sure I would.

Echidna-without being sure of what the figure actually is, I can state positively your figure of 3+ guns per person is way the hell and gone high-absurdly so. <_<

Shock-Radio Kaos is far and away RW&#39;s best solo work-"I hear radio waves...in my head....." ;)

EBP-I used to know why Canada&#39;s murder rate is lower than ours, but I believe I discarded the reasoning as being of no consequence.

I guess we&#39;re just fated to stumble about the world as the great oafs we are; playing the bull in the china shop.

Funny how we change leaders every four or eight years, but the world consensus re: the U.S. never changes.

New hands are extended and others are withdrawn, allegiances grow or fade, but the opinions never change.

But I guess the French will always be considered snotty, and that never affected them, so.......

C&#39;est le guerre&#33;

Yes I see everything and you did a good job.
But I can&#39;t seeem to get shapes(in xara 5) that are different on both sides(like yours) to spin and look right.
You have accomplished this&#33;
Please tell me how in a pm, so we don&#39;t turn this thread into a graphics and software discussion.

btw j2
The french are at it again, saying they can&#39;t take the competition from the US (in the area of weapons defense)and are asking the rest of Europe to help fight the US economically.
We&#39;re waxing their ass fair and square in a free economic enviroment and they don&#39;t like it one bit.

They&#39;ve resorted to calling Donald Rumsfeld names and even try to tell us what he thinks&#33;

hang on a sec and i&#39;ll find the link&#33;

The Associated Press

PARIS June 14 —
France&#39;s defense minister criticized her American counterpart, Donald Rumsfeld, in an interview published Saturday as someone who considers the United States the world&#39;s only military, economic and financial power.

Michele Alliot-Marie also accused American industry of waging "economic war" by trying to "take over the capital" of European defense-related industries. Europeans must regroup to resist, she said, according to the interview in the daily newspaper Le Monde.

Alliot-Marie&#39;s blunt remarks recalled the bad blood between Paris and Washington over France&#39;s leading role in opposing the U.S.-led war in Iraq.
Rumsfeld&#39;s January dig at France and Germany as being part of "Old Europe" epitomized the problem that both Paris and Washington have been working to repair.

"The American defense secretary believes that the United States is the world&#39;s only military, economic and financial power," Alliot-Marie told Le Monde. "We do not share this vision."

Alliot-Marie also said Rumsfeld&#39;s thinking seems to be out of line with that of the U.S. military and intelligence services.

"During the period of Franco-American tension, relations between our intelligence services remained perfect," she said.

The article was reread and "amended" by her, which is a relatively common practice here, Le Monde noted.
Alliot-Marie&#39;s comments were geared to the opening of the Paris Air Show, the largest display of aeronautical technology and might in the world which is held every two years.
However, this year&#39;s show, which French President Jacques Chirac and Alliot-Marie visited Saturday, is a scaled-back affair, with no U.S. flyovers and the number of attending U.S. aircraft reduced from 11 to six.
The Pentagon&#39;s decision to trim its presence was widely seen as a snub of France because of its opposition to the U.S.-led war to remove Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein.

The French minister voiced concern over U.S. industrial might and tactics she said were akin to "economic war." She called on Europeans to "regroup" to better withstand the competition.

"American industry is in a logic of economic war," she said in Le Monde. "This attitude is not connected to the Iraqi episode. European industry must regroup to be in a position to resist them."

Alliot-Marie said she was "truly concerned" by efforts of some American companies to "take over the capital" of defense-related European enterprises and said she has asked for a study of the situation. She was not more specific.

"We must be vigilant and better foresee risks and dependencies ...," the minister said.
ABC News
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Who can believe a word that paper prints when the person being interviewed gets to edit it.
Common practice too&#33;

Ah, the French.

My sister actually just returned from Paris (MontMartre); she tells me the French are shopping for American-trained pilots to see if the weapons systems on their Mirages actually work-their own pilots never learned how to trigger them.

Ms. Aliot-Marie&#39;s remarks would seem to indicate a serious cranial malady.

She is suffering a hitch in her mental "giddyup". ;)

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Originally posted by j2k4@17 June 2003 - 15:06

Echidna-without being sure of what the figure actually is, I can state positively your figure of 3+ guns per person is way the hell and gone high-absurdly so. <_<

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j2k4 :: i don&#39;t think that the spread of firearms across the population is anything like 3 to 1
but the figure is not entirely unbelievable when considering theta there would be 10,000s of collectors owning 10s of guns each, 1000s of collectors holding 100s of guns each and 10s of collectors possessing 1000s of firearms, plus all the guns held by k-mart and other retailers of firearms.
i&#39;m sure there are 10,000s of people in the USA who have never owned a gun, but there are more guns than people in the home of the brave

[have you seen &#39;bowling for colombine&#39;? if yes, what&#39;d you think? if no, do you disparage michael moore? what do you think of him? what do you think of the NRA?]

" Here&#39;s one I&#39;ll feel safe leaving overnight:

All of you who aren&#39;t from the U.S.; those of you who are, and really think U.S. foreign policy sucks-

What would YOU do, if you were (dare I say it) George Bush?

Likewise, what would you NOT do?

Please resist the urge to be flippant in your answers. "





Take some classes in diplomacy, also have Mr. Rumsfeld accompany him?

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Originally posted by echidna+17 June 2003 - 01:14--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (echidna &#064; 17 June 2003 - 01:14)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-j2k4@17 June 2003 - 15:06

Echidna-without being sure of what the figure actually is, I can state positively your figure of 3+ guns per person is way the hell and gone high-absurdly so. <_<

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j2k4 :: i don&#39;t think that the spread of firearms across the population is anything like 3 to 1
but the figure is not entirely unbelievable when considering theta there would be 10,000s of collectors owning 10s of guns each, 1000s of collectors holding 100s of guns each and 10s of collectors possessing 1000s of firearms, plus all the guns held by k-mart and other retailers of firearms.
i&#39;m sure there are 10,000s of people in the USA who have never owned a gun, but there are more guns than people in the home of the brave

[have you seen &#39;bowling for colombine&#39;? if yes, what&#39;d you think? if no, do you disparage michael moore? what do you think of him? what do you think of the NRA?] [/b][/quote]
Echidna-

Isn&#39;t it a bit disingenuous to lump gun "collections" into the mix? :huh:

Somewhat analogous to decrying the existence of a stockpile of metal as "would-be" guns.

C&#39;mon, E-you know better.

Re: Michael Moore-do a forum post search in my name, keyword "Moore"; that&#39;ll get you my thoughts on him.

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Originally posted by ShockAndAwe^i^@17 June 2003 - 05:48
The Associated Press

PARIS June 14 —
France&#39;s defense minister criticized her American counterpart, Donald Rumsfeld, in an interview published Saturday as someone who considers the United States the world&#39;s only military, economic and financial power.

Michele Alliot-Marie also accused American industry of waging "economic war" by trying to "take over the capital" of European defense-related industries. Europeans must regroup to resist, she said, according to the interview in the daily newspaper Le Monde.

Alliot-Marie&#39;s blunt remarks recalled the bad blood between Paris and Washington over France&#39;s leading role in opposing the U.S.-led war in Iraq.
Rumsfeld&#39;s January dig at France and Germany as being part of "Old Europe" epitomized the problem that both Paris and Washington have been working to repair.

"The American defense secretary believes that the United States is the world&#39;s only military, economic and financial power," Alliot-Marie told Le Monde. "We do not share this vision."

Alliot-Marie also said Rumsfeld&#39;s thinking seems to be out of line with that of the U.S. military and intelligence services.

"During the period of Franco-American tension, relations between our intelligence services remained perfect," she said.

The article was reread and "amended" by her, which is a relatively common practice here, Le Monde noted.
Alliot-Marie&#39;s comments were geared to the opening of the Paris Air Show, the largest display of aeronautical technology and might in the world which is held every two years.
However, this year&#39;s show, which French President Jacques Chirac and Alliot-Marie visited Saturday, is a scaled-back affair, with no U.S. flyovers and the number of attending U.S. aircraft reduced from 11 to six.
The Pentagon&#39;s decision to trim its presence was widely seen as a snub of France because of its opposition to the U.S.-led war to remove Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein.

The French minister voiced concern over U.S. industrial might and tactics she said were akin to "economic war." She called on Europeans to "regroup" to better withstand the competition.

"American industry is in a logic of economic war," she said in Le Monde. "This attitude is not connected to the Iraqi episode. European industry must regroup to be in a position to resist them."

Alliot-Marie said she was "truly concerned" by efforts of some American companies to "take over the capital" of defense-related European enterprises and said she has asked for a study of the situation. She was not more specific.

"We must be vigilant and better foresee risks and dependencies ...," the minister said.
ABC News
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Who can believe a word that paper prints when the person being interviewed gets to edit it.
Common practice too&#33;

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I think that she is complaining about American Arms Companies buying up European Arms Companies.

Its been happening for years and is unconnected with Iraq etc.

They were warned years ago it would happen too, when the regulations for the ownership of these companies was relaxed here, but not in the USA...so it would be very difficult for a European Arms company to buy out an American one.

The EU as a whole are looking to redress the balance here, and this is only part of the process.

There is also a closed market in the US, so rather than buy European equipment direct, they get a license and manufacture a copy in the US.

..eg Harrier Jet (which i believe is a favourite of the US Marines)

I think they are looking as to whether its worth it to do the same type of thing in Europe...ie instead of buying the equipment off the US, just build them on license themselves.

Quote:

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Originally posted by Rat Faced@17 June 2003 - 11:16
I think that she is complaining about American Arms Companies buying up European Arms Companies.

Its been happening for years and is unconnected with Iraq etc.

They were warned years ago it would happen too, when the regulations for the ownership of these companies was relaxed here, but not in the USA...so it would be very difficult for a European Arms company to buy out an American one.

The EU as a whole are looking to redress the balance here, and this is only part of the process.

There is also a closed market in the US, so rather than buy European equipment direct, they get a license and manufacture a copy in the US.

..eg Harrier Jet (which i believe is a favourite of the US Marines)

I think they are looking as to whether its worth it to do the same type of thing in Europe...ie instead of buying the equipment off the US, just build them on license themselves.

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Just so, Rat- ;)

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Originally posted by j2k4+18 June 2003 - 00:33--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (j2k4 &#064; 18 June 2003 - 00:33)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

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Originally posted by echidna@17 June 2003 - 01:14
<!--QuoteBegin-j2k4

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Quote:

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@17 June 2003 - 15:06

Echidna-without being sure of what the figure actually is, I can state positively your figure of 3+ guns per person is way the hell and gone high-absurdly so. <_<

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j2k4 :: i don&#39;t think that the spread of firearms across the population is anything like 3 to 1
but the figure is not entirely unbelievable when considering theta there would be 10,000s of collectors owning 10s of guns each, 1000s of collectors holding 100s of guns each and 10s of collectors possessing 1000s of firearms, plus all the guns held by k-mart and other retailers of firearms.
i&#39;m sure there are 10,000s of people in the USA who have never owned a gun, but there are more guns than people in the home of the brave

[have you seen &#39;bowling for colombine&#39;? if yes, what&#39;d you think? if no, do you disparage michael moore? what do you think of him? what do you think of the NRA?]

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Echidna-

Isn&#39;t it a bit disingenuous to lump gun "collections" into the mix? :huh:

Somewhat analogous to decrying the existence of a stockpile of metal as "would-be" guns.

C&#39;mon, E-you know better.

Re: Michael Moore-do a forum post search in my name, keyword "Moore"; that&#39;ll get you my thoughts on him.[/b][/quote]
guns hurl metal at velocity in order to wound or kill, right. (i don&#39;t wanna deal with "guns kill people, people kill people&#39; argument)
if civil order breaks down any available weapon would be used. stockpiled metal could be manufactured into firearms but otherwise is probably just a badly shaped cudgel at best, while any gun is a viable deadly weapon, the english conquered half the world with barrel-loading muskets, it needn&#39;t be an UZI

all i&#39;m saying is that there is an extraordinary quantity of firearms in the USA, and i think that makes the chances of getting shot a lot greater than if those guns were unshaped metal stockpiles, and if civil order disintegrates then the chances of getting shot are probably better still

i don&#39;t see any disingenuousness, i honestly believe that a place becomes more dangerous the greater the number of weapons there are there.

[the search system is turned off by VB or Paul so i&#39;ll have to try finding you views on mr moore later :: unless you can PM me a link]