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Is it proper for adults without permission from the school or even have a child as a student in said school to stand outside school gates and hand out literature to unaccompanied children or should there be an exclusion zone?
In answering remember if one type of literature is allowed then all types are (within decency laws )
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Voted for an exclusion
There is a time and place for everything and canvassing outside schools ticks neither box - allow that and every quack and political/religious wingnut group will see opportunity loom large.
No one should be allowed to approach children anywhere near a school to canvass for anything.
I think it would be a good idea to make a law against it, that way the police would have a good excuse to move undesirables from school gates. At present moment these people must commit an offence before the police can take action.
An exception would need to be made on polling days. In the UK, schools are used as polling stations.
@Vid, what prompted this thread?
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigboab
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Charges have been dropped against two individuals after they were accused of trespassing on a sidewalk outside of a Florida public school. The two men had been handing out Bibles.
On January 19, police arrested Ernest Simpson and Anthony Mirto for trespassing after the principal of Key Largo School called police to complain, according to David Cortman, an attorney for the two men. The two men were with the organization Gideons International and were distributing Bibles.
Cortman says after he filed the initial motion to dismiss for his clients, the state agreed to dismiss the charges but then filed new ones under a different statute -- one which made it illegal to be within 500 feet of any school, even if the individual is standing on a public sidewalk.
At a hearing last week, a Maricopa County judge granted the motion to dismiss the new charges against Simpson and Mirto, which Cortman says confirms that it was a case of an overaggressive government attempting to silence Christians exercising their constitutional rights.
"The First Amendment protects the right of Christians to distribute Bibles and engage in other religious speech on public sidewalks, and it's certainly a sad day when Gideons are arrested for distributing Bibles on a public sidewalk," states Cortman.
The attorney says Christians cannot be treated like second-class citizens for exercising their constitutional rights -- and the judge's dismissal confirms that, he adds.
I think that as long as they are not causing an obstruction or harassing pedestrians (and for this the harassing is from the viewpoint of the pedestrian, not the person evangelizing) then handing out literature of any kind on a public sidewalk is ok.
However where I start to get concerned is the location right outside a school where there are unaccompanied minors
We may try to say handing out bibles is a good thing and is protected by the 1st amendment, however one has to remember that the 1st protects unpopular speech as well. I'm guessing that people who want to distribute bibles wouldn't want people distributing certain other literature outside a school. Once one group sets a precedent then others will follow.
I strongly support free speech and am a strong believer in religious (all religions) free speech. But we are talking about children here and I am not happy with ANYONE approaching my children, especially if I am not with them.
How many parents here taught their children not to talk to strangers or accept gifts from strangers? How sure are you that your child will always obey that rule? How hard would it be for a pedophile to pretend to be an evangelist to gain the trust of a child or parent?
So sorry, but much as I think handing out bibles is a good thing, and I genuinely do support Gideons, don't interfere with other people's children and stay away from schools. It's the parent's job to give their child a bible, nobody else.
It's the parents job to raise their children and instill the religious values, not the state and unless the parent asks them to, not religious groups or churches.
Thanks.:) I agree with you completely. Religion should not be taught in school.Who is to say which religion is the right one, if any?
A persons religion should be selected by that person alone. Children should be taught morality. They can choose a religion, or not, when they are old enough and have more understanding of worldly issues.
It makes me angry when I see young children accompanying street preachers. I get the impression that they would rather be playing with other children somewhere else.
I've had a discussion in the real world about this with someone that thinks that it's not only proper for Christians (but only Christians) to canvass outside schools but in his opinion they need a campaign outside all public schools and any private non Christian schools.
His logic is that this wouldn't have to happen if there were bible classes in schools, and in counter to my suggestion that it's up to the parents to instill their faith he said that not all parents take that responsibility seriously so it's up to Christians to take over for the failings of those parents.
I've also read similar opinions on the comment sections of right wing blogs
I kid you not
Exactly. Happened a lot at my school last year; lots of random junk on abortion and religion and stuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by Biggles
It happened only a few times at my high school, but it was over bearingly annoying as I was just trying to get to my car...(I'm not even sure I was outside school property..)
Voted for an exclusion
as its better
I would vote it's not proper because the intent is one of influencing those who dont have the frame of reference or intellectual arms to defend themselves.
Here is your answer, simply put yes they should be allowed to. Look at your own sig, look at what you quote as a form of satire . Don't you think that you are no better if you say it shouldn't be allowed... Just so long as you aren't on school groundsQuote:
Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
Any society has the responsibility to protect the youth of that society. Your reference to the 1st Amendment is somewhat correct but it is incomplete. The establishment clause is to protect you and I from State Sanctioned Religion...Iran?Quote:
Originally Posted by LaPistola
There are rules to religious beliefs in this country. For example...you cannot sacrifice humans...you cant use illegal drugs...etc. If I were peddling flyers saying that in my religion sex between 10 year olds was acceptable should I be allowed to hand out flyers to Billy and Jane on their playtime?
The schools have a responsibility to protect the kids that are in their charge. We still have a legislative branch. The constitutions beauty is that it can be ammended to the necessity of the times. These are indeed different times.
The constitution is not an excuse for people to act how ever the hell they want.
I see your point, but how is the public sidewalk in front of a school any different from a public sidewalk anywhere else? If it is allowed on a street in, say the middle of town, then why should it be restricted on any other public sidewalk or street?Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxOverlordAny society has the responsibility to protect the youth of that society. Your reference to the 1st Amendment is somewhat correct but it is incomplete. The establishment clause is to protect you and I from State Sanctioned Religion...Iran?Quote:
Originally Posted by LaPistola
There are rules to religious beliefs in this country. For example...you cannot sacrifice humans...you cant use illegal drugs...etc. If I were peddling flyers saying that in my religion sex between 10 year olds was acceptable should I be allowed to hand out flyers to Billy and Jane on their playtime?
The schools have a responsibility to protect the kids that are in their charge. We still have a legislative branch. The constitutions beauty is that it can be ammended to the necessity of the times. These are indeed different times.
The constitution is not an excuse for people to act how ever the hell they want.
I wonder what would happen if a Muslim Iman stood outside these American schools distributing leaflets promoting Islamic Fundamentalism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by LaPistolaI see your point, but how is the public sidewalk in front of a school any different from a public sidewalk anywhere else? If it is allowed on a street in, say the middle of town, then why should it be restricted on any other public sidewalk or street?Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxOverlord
There are rules pertaining to schools such as you cant do *blank* or *blank* within 100 yards of a school and so forth.
These are little children. That should be enough for anyone.
No-one who is not the child's parent or guardian, or a person acting on their behalf, a school employee or someone on other official business (e.g. a Policeman) should go anywhere near the child. Far less try to hand them some form of leaflet or book, not matter what the subject matter.
At most they should ask the school to distribute their material.
The Police should have the authority to move these people away from the proximity of the School.
Does that answer your question?Quote:
Originally Posted by LaPistola
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Originally Posted by bigboab
CAIR and the ACLU would be there holding their hands.
Aye, true.Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxOverlordQuote:
Originally Posted by bigboab
CAIR and the ACLU would be there holding their hands.
The whole purpose of education is to enable children to grow up and make their own decisions in adult life. They will be unable to do that if they are brainwashed with any religious teachings of any persuasion. They will only end up believing that 'their' religion is the only religion.Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxOverlordQuote:
Originally Posted by bigboab
CAIR and the ACLU would be there holding their hands.
When I was a toddler I was told 'Go to sleep or the big black man will come and get you'. Remember I am talking about 65 odd years ago. Statements like that are embedded in your sub conscious mind as you can see by my result in the other thread.
P.S. I still don't sleep at night but I leave my door open just in case.:ghey:
Maybe you are that feeble minded, other people aren't.Quote:
Originally Posted by bigboab
According to your PM you wanted nothing more to do with me. So why get personal? Up till now my posts have been of a general nature concerning the thread content.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr JP FugleyQuote:
Originally Posted by bigboab
Maybe you are that feeble minded, other people aren't.
Who are you to tell other people how they should educate their children. If Muslims believe that the best way to educate their own children is in a school which teaches their religion then that's up to them, not you.
Someone else coming to their school and giving children pamphlets, or books or whatever is not the same thing. "Up till now my posts have been of a general nature concerning the thread content." - Pish, you twisted it to suit your agenda, it's not the same thing at all.
Absolute twaddle. Read the thread from the beginning.The whole thing behind the issuing of pamphlets at the gates of US schools is because the teaching of religion is not allowed. Christians in the States are doing hand stands and somersaults trying to achieve the introduction of religion into the curriculum.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr JP Fugley
Who are they(Christians) to say how children should be educated. Introducing Creationism as means of introduction did not worked. The issuing of leaflets is just another ploy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigboabAbsolute twaddle. Read the thread from the beginning.The whole thing behind the issuing of pamphlets at the gates of US schools is because the teaching of religion is not allowed. Christians in the States are doing hand stands and somersaults trying to achieve the introduction of religion into the curriculum.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr JP Fugley
Who are they(Christians) to say how children should be educated. Introducing Creationism as means of introduction did not worked. The issuing of leaflets is just another ploy.
Not one word about Christianity, the USA, creationism, or anything else you prattled on about.Quote:
Is it proper for adults without permission from the school or even have a child as a student in said school to stand outside school gates and hand out literature to unaccompanied children or should there be an exclusion zone?
In answering remember if one type of literature is allowed then all types are (within decency laws )
Just you twisting things to suit your agenda, again. Don't let the facts get in the way.
Read my first post in this thread , btw. I am totally opposed to anyone handing out pamphlets, about anything, outside of schools. I am also in favour of parents being able to chose a school which suits their choice, for their child.
If Jewish people want their child's school to also teach Judaism that's up to them. If Muslims want to stand outside that school handing out leaflets about Islam then they are in the wrong.
It was Christians that were outside the school concerned.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr JP FugleyQuote:
Originally Posted by bigboab
Not one word about Christianity, the USA, creationism, or anything else you prattled on about.Quote:
Is it proper for adults without permission from the school or even have a child as a student in said school to stand outside school gates and hand out literature to unaccompanied children or should there be an exclusion zone?
In answering remember if one type of literature is allowed then all types are (within decency laws )
Just you twisting things to suit your agenda, again. Don't let the facts get in the way.
Read my first post in this thread , btw. I am totally opposed to anyone handing out pamphlets, about anything, outside of schools. I am also in favour of parents being able to chose a school which suits their choice, for their child.
If Jewish people want their child's school to also teach Judaism that's up to them. If Muslims want to stand outside that school handing out leaflets about Islam then they are in the wrong.
So what, the thread and poll is about "should adults be allowed to canvass children at the school gates?".
The thread starter indicated (when asked) that it was a particular incident which had caused him to consider the subject and bring it up. However the thread is about the generality of whether people should be allowed to canvas children is such a manner. You changed that to "religion should not be taught in schools", again. You even did the old classic and called it brainwashing.
You just said it. It is directly around the school.Quote:
Originally Posted by LaPistolaI see your point, but how is the public sidewalk in front of a school any different from a public sidewalk anywhere else? If it is allowed on a street in, say the middle of town, then why should it be restricted on any other public sidewalk or street?Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxOverlord
On a slightly different note, there are precedents for different rules in school areas. They are called school zones.
Fines are much harsher for speeders and reckless drivers. Drug selling in those areas are dealt with in a harsher manner.
The difference is that those activities are already illegal. I say so what. I can't see the harm in extending the shield to include solicitors and propagandists.
If you look at the definition of brainwashing it would appear that I am correct.
brain·wash·ing (brān'wŏsh'ĭng, -wô'shĭng) http://content.answers.com/main/content/img/pron.gif
n.
- Intensive, forcible indoctrination, usually political or religious, aimed at destroying a person's basic convictions and attitudes and replacing them with an alternative set of fixed beliefs.
- The application of a concentrated means of persuasion, such as an advertising campaign or repeated suggestion, in order to develop a specific belief or motivation.
Good lord, I'm glad I didn't read most of the responses in this thread earlier.
How the hell did this turn into a thread about brainwashing?:blink:
One way is them trying to get it in the school curriculum. This has to go through a school board....basically some oversight.Quote:
Originally Posted by bigboabAbsolute twaddle. Read the thread from the beginning.The whole thing behind the issuing of pamphlets at the gates of US schools is because the teaching of religion is not allowed. Christians in the States are doing hand stands and somersaults trying to achieve the introduction of religion into the curriculum.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr JP Fugley
Who are they(Christians) to say how children should be educated. Introducing Creationism as means of introduction did not worked. The issuing of leaflets is just another ploy.
The other is them trying to circumvent that by handing out propaganda just outside the school grounds.
2 different things entirely.
Only if you happen to be the type of bigot who thinks that happens in schools which have religious studies classes. It may happen in some, I have no idea not having experience of every type of school.Quote:
Originally Posted by bigboab
However for you to say that it happens in all just shows that you are simply supporting your own narrow minded bigotry. Probably based on your out-dated view on how schools operate. Religious education nowadays, far from teaching that one religion is the only religion, teach about the wide variety there is. The differences in fundamental beliefs etc. more importantly they also teach about the similarities.
Being fair I am only talking about Christian schools. I have no experience of any other types, however that does not mean I will judge them harshly based on ignorance.
I am only bigoted in the sense that that I believe no religion should be taught in schools. It would appear that the US government is also bigoted according to your principles.
No, you are bigoted because you accuse other people of brainwashing, based on your own prejudices. Having at best out-dated information on the subject and at worst none at all. How much do you actually know about the teaching of religion in Muslim schools, or in Jewish schools. Or in any other school which either is affiliated to a religion or is non-religious but chooses to teach children about different religious systems.
Whether the US Government is also bigoted is really neither here nor there. It changes nothing about you, your attitudes or how you express them. I do however find it extraordinary if the American people have decided that religion is a subject which should be precluded from it's school curriculum. How can you even study things like History without also studying religion.
I am Homophobic(not your words), Narrow minded, Bigoted, Prejudiced. The only thing missing is vindictiveness.
If I achieve that then I will be in danger of usurping your position as the Forum arse (Official):P
/ignore
Oh there's plenty of vindictiveness about you, posting the odd smillie when you do it doesn't change that.Quote:
Originally Posted by bigboab
I'm trying to think of Happy, Fluffy Rainbows.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr JP FugleyOh there's plenty of vindictiveness about you, posting the odd smillie when you do it doesn't change that.Quote:
Originally Posted by bigboab
P.S I wanted to be the Arse!
Bob. I'll make a deal with you. You can have a cheek and I can have a cheek. That would be the PC thing to do.
There's still time.Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxOverlordI'm trying to think of Happy, Fluffy Rainbows.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr JP Fugley
P.S I wanted to be the Arse!