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I'm sorry to inform you that this does not give me chills for sure. Oddly enough, it reminded me of the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I'm certain that wasn't its original intent, but there you go.
:ninja:
Another whining warmonger who thinks that if you don't agree with his viewpoint then you are a snivelling coward and should keep your mouth shut.
He also thinks that 9/11 was a good reason for war with Iraq, even though there has been no link shown.
WOO! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! <_<
What goes around comes around, as old binliner,saddam, and co' will find out.
The world is not big enough for those arseholes to hide in. it's only a matter of time!! billyfridge <_<
Will bush and blair find that out then too?
The parallel escapes me, completely. Maybe both sets of civilians killed, were victims of actions undertaken by their governments, but that seems specious.Quote:
Originally posted by MagicNakor@31 July 2003 - 13:50
I'm sorry to inform you that this does not give me chills for sure. Oddly enough, it reminded me of the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I'm certain that wasn't its original intent, but there you go.
:ninja:
Your comment is very out of character, so I assume you were responding to the emotional manipulation the poster and his link were attempting to force on you. I can't help but be a little disappointed. You should direct your response to the poster, not the victims.
As for my response, it does not fill me with sadness, but a terrible rage.
The parallel escapes me, completely. Maybe both sets of civilians killed, were victims of actions undertaken by their governments, but that seems specious.Quote:
Originally posted by hobbes+31 July 2003 - 21:17--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (hobbes @ 31 July 2003 - 21:17)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-MagicNakor@31 July 2003 - 13:50
I'm sorry to inform you that this does not give me chills for sure. Oddly enough, it reminded me of the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I'm certain that wasn't its original intent, but there you go.
:ninja:
Your comment is very out of character, so I assume you were responding to the emotional manipulation the poster and his link were attempting to force on you. I can't help but be a little disappointed. You should direct your response to the poster, not the victims.
As for my response, it does not fill me with sadness, but a terrible rage. [/b][/quote]
Hello Hobbes,
The mind is a strange organ. Unexpected associations can be conjured up.
Your feelings of rage surprised me. You did not explain the cause of your rage. Did you mean the use of the atomic bomb against civilians or the aeroplanes flying into the towers?
Edit: The manipulation or something else
It was the constant "Never Forget." It's a phrase that's been applied to both Great Wars, the atomic bombing of Japan (although not the firebombing of Tokyo, which is rather confusing), and more recently, the Holocaust.
I wasn't commenting on the victims at all, but, as you said, the flagrant attempt at emotional manipulation. Perhaps if sampson had had something in his post than "This Will Give Ya Chills For Sure" and a link, there would've been more to respond to. And while I have sympathy for the victims and their friends and family, the event entire has been grossly manipulated by the United States government.
Or perhaps I just cannot have the emotional response that is trying to be provoked. My roommate, who is American, was certainly more distraught about the entire event than I was.
:ninja:
i thought it was good, up until the 'in your face' comments like "THIS COULD BE YOUR SISTER" and shit like that. it would've been fine without the words.
but for those of you who are discrespecting the U.S. and in effect mocking the sept. 11 attacks, FUCK YOU.
If you want to hear a truely great response to the events of Sept. 11, listen to the lyrics of Bon Jovi's Undivided:
Not overly sentimental, not overly confrontational, just defiant and unbuckled, and united in the face of tragedy. As we all should be.Quote:
That was my brother lost in the rubble
That was my sister lost in the crush
That was our mothers, those were our children
That was our fathers, that was each one of us
A million prayers to God above
A million tears make an ocean of
Chorus:
One for love
One for truth
One for me
One for you
I found spirit, they couldn't ruin it
I found courage in the smoke and dust
I found faith in the songs you silenced
Deep down it's ringing out in each of us
Yeah... yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah
Chorus:
One for love
One for truth
One for me
One for you
Where we once were divided
Now we stand united
We stand as one... undivided.
How many hands? How many hearts?
How many dreams been torn apart?
Enough, enough... the time has come to rise back as
Chorus:
One for love
One for truth
One for me
One for you
Where we once were divided
Now we stand united
We stand as one... undivided.
Undivided.
Undivided.
One for love
One for truth
One for me
One for you
Where we once were divided
Now we stand united
We stand as one... undivided.
Hello Hobbes,Quote:
Originally posted by nigel123+31 July 2003 - 22:04--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (nigel123 @ 31 July 2003 - 22:04)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Quote:
Originally posted by hobbes@31 July 2003 - 21:17
<!--QuoteBegin-MagicNakor
Quote:
@31 July 2003 - 13:50
I'm sorry to inform you that this does not give me chills for sure. Oddly enough, it reminded me of the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I'm certain that wasn't its original intent, but there you go.
:ninja:
The parallel escapes me, completely. Maybe both sets of civilians killed, were victims of actions undertaken by their governments, but that seems specious.
Your comment is very out of character, so I assume you were responding to the emotional manipulation the poster and his link were attempting to force on you. I can't help but be a little disappointed. You should direct your response to the poster, not the victims.
As for my response, it does not fill me with sadness, but a terrible rage.
The mind is a strange organ. Unexpected associations can be conjured up.
Your feelings of rage surprised me. You did not explain the cause of your rage. Did you mean the use of the atomic bomb against civilians or the aeroplanes flying into the towers?
Edit: The manipulation or something else[/b][/quote]
Nigel,
I see no need to clarify my post, its' meaning is obvious, and you know it.
I see an obvious personal jab at me, please return to the high road. In fact, I will be sure to join you there. ;)
As for Magic,
Your response should have read, "It was a terrible event, but I sort of object to being manipulated into stock response, which was your (sampsons') intent". This is the intent I saw on your part, through your words. I saw no need for your, "Ya you guys did it, too- remember the A-Bombs". Sometimes if we collect our thoughts before we shoot back, we can be more effective. (Trust me, I've traveled this road before).
It does you no credit to continue with "the entire event has been grossly manipulated by the US Government". What the government did "after the fact" has no bearing on the event or on the emotional impact that it had on US citizens.
That link was actually the first time I have seen people clinging to windows and jumping. Did you see how many were hanging out? So many must have jumped to death, right on camera. I'm glad we don't show that stuff here.
"This Will Give Ya Chills For Sure"
Oddly enough, I was falling asleep. From the minute I turned it on I knew what it would be about. I closed the link around when they started showing pixelated images of the WTC on 9/11.
And call me a bastard for DARING to fall asleep during such an emotional roller-coaster of a movie, but I live in NYC... And the amount of crap that we've gone through is so unbelievable that this sort of thing doesn't even chill me anymore.
The government has raped us dry... And left us to bleed, infected with STDs.
Our mayor is a short, stumpy, lumpy idiot of a man who loves to see just how many liberties he can remove, and how many taxes he can raise.
And I won't even start about our beloved Govnah'.
Ordinarily, the development of loving-kindness and compassion occurs when an individual sees someone suffering. When an individual develops the wish to liberate that being from the experience of suffering, this is compassion. Knowing that all beings wish to obtain happiness, and wanting to give them happiness, this is loving-kindness
I also see people suffering, all around the world. I see it in your 'rage'and I feel it could consume you Hobbes. Certainly it was not meant as a 'jab' at you. If you had not seen that link you would have felt less enraged at this moment than you do now.
I believe all life is sacred, be it microbe or a human being. My point was more directed towards an understanding of your emotions. Every action creates a reaction and so a circle of events unfold that can become self perpetuating. Someone has to break that circle. I don't believe that those thoughts that were propagated in that film will help; if we want to live peacefully together.
We wil always be subject to natural catastrophies, there is not all that much we can do about that. We can in a small way help to create a more compassionate climate for ourselves and our children, by caring for each other and encouraging positive thought patterns. A good friend will point out the negative thoughts.
edit: a couple of spelling mistakes.
I agree with kAb, if you are going to disrepect the US, FUCK YOUQuote:
Originally posted by kAb@31 July 2003 - 16:55
i thought it was good, up until the 'in your face' comments like "THIS COULD BE YOUR SISTER" and shit like that. it would've been fine without the words.
but for those of you who are discrespecting the U.S. and in effect mocking the sept. 11 attacks, FUCK YOU.
The US made a free country and all of your countries did the same because you know you love freedom. The US has saved almost all of your ass's before in wars. If someone hits our tallest building with a freaking civilian plane, we're going to attack them. We got good reasons to. And even if 9-11 didnt happen Iraq and Afganistan still should have been attacked before they have terrorists. I wonder why Saddam is running a little like a little pus if he isnt scared of the US. I know why! Because he knows we're gonna kill him, or capture him and get all the infomation we can and then send him to court and have his ass killed that way. We still havent got Saddam or Osama but they are 2 people in a world of 6 billion. We'll get them sooner or later. Hitler wasnt captured right after the Nazi's fell , so i dont think you should think we have to find saddam or osama right away. The 1st thing i thought about was 9-11. After about the 2nd or 3rd sentence. And if your not American you probably dont care since your country wasnt hit wit a plane! So if you dont care, then Fuck You. Guess who else is going to be set free...... Liberia! They didnt play any big roll in 9-11 but we know they have terrorist's and harm there people so we're freeing them as well.
I agree with kAb, if you are going to disrepect the US, FUCK YOUQuote:
Originally posted by DarkBlizzard+31 July 2003 - 15:38--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (DarkBlizzard @ 31 July 2003 - 15:38)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-kAb@31 July 2003 - 16:55
i thought it was good, up until the 'in your face' comments like "THIS COULD BE YOUR SISTER" and shit like that. it would've been fine without the words.
but for those of you who are discrespecting the U.S. and in effect mocking the sept. 11 attacks, FUCK YOU.
The US made a free country and all of your countries did the same because you know you love freedom. The US has saved almost all of your ass's before in wars. If someone hits our tallest building with a freaking civilian plane, we're going to attack them. We got good reasons to. And even if 9-11 didnt happen Iraq and Afganistan still should have been attacked before they have terrorists. I wonder why Saddam is running a little like a little pus if he isnt scared of the US. I know why! Because he knows we're gonna kill him, or capture him and get all the infomation we can and then send him to court and have his ass killed that way. We still havent got Saddam or Osama but they are 2 people in a world of 6 billion. We'll get them sooner or later. Hitler wasnt captured right after the Nazi's fell , so i dont think you should think we have to find saddam or osama right away. The 1st thing i thought about was 9-11. After about the 2nd or 3rd sentence. And if your not American you probably dont care since your country wasnt hit wit a plane! So if you dont care, then Fuck You. Guess who else is going to be set free...... Liberia! They didnt play any big roll in 9-11 but we know they have terrorist's and harm there people so we're freeing them as well. [/b][/quote]
encore encore :)
(but hitler died in 1945)
I never said "Ya you guys did it, too- remember the A-Bombs." When I was going through school, the Great Wars, Hiroshima and the phrase never forget were intertwined. In fact, one couldn't learn about them without having that phrase show up. Perhaps it's changed now. Perhaps never forget is now associated with more recent events. However, you're reading far too much into what I said, and insinuating statements that I did not make, nor intended to.Quote:
Originally posted by hobbes@31 July 2003 - 23:55
As for Magic,
Your response should have read, "It was a terrible event, but I sort of object to being manipulated into stock response, which was your (sampsons') intent". This is the intent I saw on your part, through your words. I saw no need for your, "Ya you guys did it, too- remember the A-Bombs". Sometimes if we collect our thoughts before we shoot back, we can be more effective. (Trust me, I've traveled this road before).
It does you no credit to continue with "the entire event has been grossly manipulated by the US Government". What the government did "after the fact" has no bearing on the event or on the emotional impact that it had on US citizens.
That link was actually the first time I have seen people clinging to windows and jumping. Did you see how many were hanging out? So many must have jumped to death, right on camera. I'm glad we don't show that stuff here.
The manipulation is due to the emotional response of the US citizens, which is resonating to this day. I'm not certain if the US has privacy watchdogs, or if they're ever vocal, but legislation has been tabled that wouldn't have even been considered a few years ago. Those are the political maneuverings I'm referring to.
I've seen footage of people jumping from the buildings. It was played quite often at the time, second only to the planes hitting the towers, and said towers collapsing. I think it was showing for around two months, actually, because my roommate would always be watching it.
:ninja:
Ok, I understand your association, the phrase "never forget". It would have been helpful to explain this in your first post to clarify the link of one event to the other, otherwise, it leaves the reader (me), to place his spin on the intent of your ambiguous words.
I did comment that I found your post "atypical" and now I know why.
I guess I'm showing my age. ;) It never occurred to me that people would be confused about the link.
:ninja:
Why do I feel that there is a sign saying, "You are here" over my head.Quote:
Originally posted by nigel123@1 August 2003 - 00:24
Ordinarily, the development of loving-kindness and compassion occurs when an individual sees someone suffering. When an individual develops the wish to liberate that being from the experience of suffering, this is compassion. Knowing that all beings wish to obtain happiness, and wanting to give them happiness, this is loving-kindness
I also see people suffering, all around the world. I see it in your 'rage'and I feel it could consume you Hobbes. Certainly it was not meant as a 'jab' at you. If you had not seen that link you would have felt less enraged at this moment than you do now.
I believe all life is sacred, be it microbe or a human being. My point was more directed towards an understanding of your emotions. Every action creates a reaction and so a circle of events unfold that can become self perpetuating. Someone has to break that circle. I don't believe that those thoughts that were propagated in that film will help; if we want to live peacefully together.
We wil always be subject to natural catastrophies, there is not all that much we can do about that. We can in a small way help to create a more compassionate climate for ourselves and our children, by caring for each other and encouraging positive thought patterns. A good friend will point out the negative thoughts.
edit: a couple of spelling mistakes.
http://www.psychoanalysis.org.uk/shrink.jpg
We should be and we were.Quote:
Originally posted by Lamsey@1 August 2003 - 00:50
just defiant and unbuckled, and united in the face of tragedy. As we all should be.
Lamsey, it is almost two years since that tragedy. Must the flames of these sad emotions be constantly whipped up like an out of control forest fire in a gale force wind? I think these flames should be extinguished with the water of forgiveness.
(So to speak)
New Yorkers who had there parents or children or friends die arent going to forgive anyone. How about one of you speak to a group full of 100 of the people who lost love ones in 9-11....they will beat your ass. If people wanna talk about it, then let them!
We should be and we were.Quote:
Originally posted by nigel123+1 August 2003 - 01:50--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (nigel123 @ 1 August 2003 - 01:50)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Lamsey@1 August 2003 - 00:50
just defiant and unbuckled, and united in the face of tragedy. As we all should be.
Lamsey, it is almost two years since that tragedy. Must the flames of these sad emotions be constantly whipped up like an out of control forest fire in a gale force wind? I think these flames should be extinguished with the water of forgiveness.
(So to speak) [/b][/quote]
Nigel,
When some kicks down your door and kills your wife and children, then come and talk to us.
2 years later, would you embrace the murders and talk about love and forgiveness? Would you take umbrage at someone who said, "Nigel, it has been 2 years, get over it and move on!".
Some scars stay forever.
Someone jumped out from like 45 floors high?
I am not quite sure what you mean by that.Quote:
Originally posted by hobbes@1 August 2003 - 02:29
Why do I feel that there is a sign saying, "You are here" over my head.
http://www.psychoanalysis.org.uk/shrink.jpg
I have just replied to Lamsey, and I feel that the inititial outrage should have subsided a little by now. Please don't feel personally attacked.
If I had not felt your opinions or feelings had any substance, I would just have ignored them..
We all lost something very special on that day. Yes the scars will remain. But nothing will bring them back.
I have also lost some very special people in my life. So I do know how it feels. It hurts.
Nothing can bring them back, but if I can kill those that did it, I will pursue that option, if only, that others don't have to go through the same.Quote:
Originally posted by nigel123@1 August 2003 - 02:19
We all lost something very special on that day. Yes the scars will remain. But nothing will bring them back.
I have also lost some very special people in my life. So I do know how it feels. It hurts.
We have all lost someone special, but if we can prevent someone else from suffering the same by elimatining the source, we are obliged.
Forgiving Bin Laden is pointless, as he has no regret, and would do it again.
You must not only crush the guilty, but set an example for those that would follow in his footsteps. Sometimes you must be hard.
Then you should first make a list of all these terrorist people, their families, offspring, all their friends and their offspring, because that's how far you will have to go to eliminate them all. They too will have revenge burning in their hearts. Where is the end? Why not just destroy all mankind in one go. You will be bound to get the relatively few guilty ones then.
Is this really the answer to our problems? I mean, you see revenge just won't work?
Edit. I am going to leave this topic now, I have read all the posts, and taken notice off your feelings. I wish I could have convinced you, that the way to peace and harmony will bear more fruit than the road you are following. No doubt we will cross each others paths in some other topic.
Take care
Bin Laden will attack us again, unless killed. No amount of forgiveness will change this.Quote:
Originally posted by nigel123@1 August 2003 - 02:52
Then you should first make a list of all these terrorist people, their families, offspring, all their friends and their offspring, because that's how far you will have to go to eliminate them all. They too will have revenge burning in their hearts. Where is the end? Why not just destroy all mankind in one go. You will be bound to get the relatively few guilty ones then.
Is this really the answer to our problems? I mean, you see revenge just won't work?
So, if someone killed your wife, you would forgive them, as the vengence of the offspring would just perpetuate the violence and nullify your temporay justice, by punishing the violator.
Why do we punish crimes then? The remaining offspring will just execute justice, right?
You must not only kill the perpetrators, but those who directly or indirectly allowed him to act.
Goodwill toward man is the luxury of the blessed.
After all, didn't the Christian God kill everyone on the planet for their transgressions (Noahs' ark). If God is not a good role-model, the who is? Thanks to God for showing us how to deal with "bad people".
sorry lamsey, but this is a collection of BS statements that mean nothing when you break them down. aka propoganda.Quote:
Originally posted by Lamsey@31 July 2003 - 23:50
If you want to hear a truely great response to the events of Sept. 11, listen to the lyrics of Bon Jovi's Undivided:
Not overly sentimental, not overly confrontational, just defiant and unbuckled, and united in the face of tragedy. As we all should be.Quote:
That was my brother lost in the rubble
That was my sister lost in the crush
That was our mothers, those were our children
That was our fathers, that was each one of us
A million prayers to God above
A million tears make an ocean of
Chorus:
One for love
One for truth
One for me
One for you
I found spirit, they couldn't ruin it
I found courage in the smoke and dust
I found faith in the songs you silenced
Deep down it's ringing out in each of us
Yeah... yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah
Chorus:
One for love
One for truth
One for me
One for you
Where we once were divided
Now we stand united
We stand as one... undivided.
How many hands? How many hearts?
How many dreams been torn apart?
Enough, enough... the time has come to rise back as
Chorus:
One for love
One for truth
One for me
One for you
Where we once were divided
Now we stand united
We stand as one... undivided.
Undivided.
Undivided.
One for love
One for truth
One for me
One for you
Where we once were divided
Now we stand united
We stand as one... undivided.
so if ALL life is sacred, is human life more sacred than that of a wombat?Quote:
Originally posted by nigel123@1 August 2003 - 00:24
I believe all life is sacred, be it microbe or a human being.
you don't have children, do you? or, do you?
so if ALL life is sacred, is human life more sacred than that of a wombat?Quote:
Originally posted by myfiles3000+1 August 2003 - 06:48--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (myfiles3000 @ 1 August 2003 - 06:48)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-nigel123@1 August 2003 - 00:24
I believe all life is sacred, be it microbe or a human being.
you don't have children, do you? or, do you?[/b][/quote]
@ Yes I do have chidren.
@ All life is sacred.
When you read 'all life is sacred' that means that all life has an equal right to live.
What's the matter, your not a wombat hater?
Yes, more than 45 floors high,on 9-11 lots of people did....they went to the windows to get away from fire, which would be a really painful death so they jumped out.Quote:
Originally posted by Keikan@31 July 2003 - 20:01
Someone jumped out from like 45 floors high?
Yes they did! I saw the whole story unfold on television. I shall never forget it. I also saw the pictures of the gassed mothers, clutching their equally dead babies, in Iraq many years ago. It is nearly impossible to comprehend, that humans do these things to each other, but they do.
first off, when i posted that link, i didnt expect this kind of response and thats why there isnt any text. secondly, i dont know how you can say that the us govt. has manipulated the situation, or that the filmmaker was trying to manipulate my emotions. the US has always said that it will not negotiate with terrorists and that any terrorist act will be considered an act of war. they have pecked at and annoyed us and smaller countries for years.(its like a kid in school(sadaam) picking on someone until they finally do something to really piss them off and the other kid(usa) turns around and knocks the shit out of em) as for manipulating my emotions, were you getting ready for work and saw this live on tv? was it your country and country men/women that were under attack? i think not. my emotions ran deep. I SAW RED that morning! there was no time for the govt or any filmmaker to decide my emotions for me. i support EVERY decision the us govt has made in this campaign, i support EVERY troop of EVERY country thats fighting to ride the world of this crazy fuck, and i support my president. GO BUSH! i have a million other opinions on the subject, but i guess we'll go one at a time.Quote:
Originally posted by MagicNakor@31 July 2003 - 21:11
It was the constant "Never Forget." It's a phrase that's been applied to both Great Wars, the atomic bombing of Japan (although not the firebombing of Tokyo, which is rather confusing), and more recently, the Holocaust.
I wasn't commenting on the victims at all, but, as you said, the flagrant attempt at emotional manipulation. Perhaps if sampson had had something in his post than "This Will Give Ya Chills For Sure" and a link, there would've been more to respond to. And while I have sympathy for the victims and their friends and family, the event entire has been grossly manipulated by the United States government.
Or perhaps I just cannot have the emotional response that is trying to be provoked. My roommate, who is American, was certainly more distraught about the entire event than I was.
:ninja:
PLEASE DONT CLOSE THIS POST. WE'RE NOT FLAMING, WE'RE VENTING :)
Sampson, it was not only the USA that was attacked on 9.11, it was our 'western' culture. It happend on your soil. Buildings can be rebuilt but all those lives will never be returned.
My point is that killing each other will not solve the situation. It just set the scene for the revenge attack. It really is a vicious circle.
Funny, that sounds alot like the attitude of a fanatical terrorist... :huh:Quote:
Originally posted by DarkBlizzard@1 August 2003 - 00:53
New Yorkers who had there parents or children or friends die arent going to forgive anyone. How about one of you speak to a group full of 100 of the people who lost love ones in 9-11....they will beat your ass. If people wanna talk about it, then let them!
Well, technically the Jewish God.Quote:
Originally posted by hobbes@1 August 2003 - 02:06
After all, didn't the Christian God kill everyone on the planet for their transgressions (Noahs' ark). If God is not a good role-model, the who is? Thanks to God for showing us how to deal with "bad people".
As someone pointed out in another thread, in the intermission between the Old Testament and the New Testament God seemed to go through a personality realignment, from a vindictive small minded egotist, to a caring sharing family guy...
Youve gotta gimmie more than that for me to be able to respond. Whats youre solution?Quote:
Originally posted by nigel123@1 August 2003 - 09:12
Sampson, it was not only the USA that was attacked on 9.11, it was our 'western' culture. It happend on your soil. Buildings can be rebuilt but all those lives will never be returned.
My point is that killing each other will not solve the situation. It just set the scene for the revenge attack. It really is a vicious circle.
On a lighter note
http://www.flowgo.com/flowgo2_view.cfm?page_id=63418
and for anyone whos looking for any pic ever to do with 9/11.......
http://www.penttbomb.net/Archive.html