Or is it the American parents' choice.
To Abuse their CHILDREN by proxy
Neil.
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Or is it the American parents' choice.
To Abuse their CHILDREN by proxy
Neil.
If ya tell me what a Boot camp is, i might give ya an answer!
:)
I am trying to expand my worldly knowldge - help a mouse out!
A "Boot Camp" is a loophole in American law where a parent can send a "Disfunctional" chilt to a military style 2Camp" with tents and a lot of grown mwn who scream and shout at (9yr old girls in order to break their "SPIRIT")Quote:
Originally posted by WeeMouse@1 August 2003 - 22:05
If ya tell me what a Boot camp is, i might give ya an answer!
:)
I am trying to expand my worldly knowldge - help a mouse out!
Oh how proud their mothers must be.
Does anyone want to use that as a chatup line..
Neil
Typo
that's child abuse that is, treat kids with compassion and love and mercy etc,not with force,do you think your kids would love you after you send them to the camps??
Boot camps are what people who enlist into the military go to...
"Send My Child To Boot Camp" on Sally-Jessy isn't what real boot camps are like.
:ninja:
:o
Damn that sounds nasty!
OK - they're not nice then! Who would ever talk to their parents' again if they were sent on one of those?
Do you get diffrent kinds, like a boot camp for recovering druggies or teenage delinquents?
Bootcamps build character and occasionaly turn loafers into responsible citizens. Unfortunately, too many people are blinded by political correctness to see those benefits.
What would you do with a 13 year old daughter who refused to comply with simple household rules? Who calls 911 at the slightest suggestion that she should wash dishes or make a bed. Who prostitutes for her boyfriend's alcohol and drug habit.
No, you can't discipline a child like that, it isn't allowed. All you can do is wait for some judge to see the seriousness of the situation and hopefully take strong action.
At least keep them busy untill their brains have developed a bit more.
(hopefully)
There's nothing wrong with breaking the wrong spirit. It's a parents duty to try and keep the path correct. When that path is corrupted by illlusion and confusion, truly evil spirits can develop.
Would you wait for better times and hope you or someone else doesn't wake up with a knife in the chest when the attitude goes too far?
Tough love.Quote:
Originally posted by balamm@2 August 2003 - 11:15
Bootcamps build character and occasionaly turn loafers into responsible citizens. Unfortunately, too many people are blinded by political correctness to see those benefits.
What would you do with a 13 year old daughter who refused to comply with simple household rules? Who calls 911 at the slightest suggestion that she should wash dishes or make a bed. Who prostitutes for her boyfriend's alcohol and drug habit.
No, you can't discipline a child like that, it isn't allowed. All you can do is wait for some judge to see the seriousness of the situation and hopefully take strong action.
At least keep them busy untill their brains have developed a bit more.
(hopefully)
There's nothing wrong with breaking the wrong spirit. It's a parents duty to try and keep the path correct. When that path is corrupted by illlusion and confusion, truly evil spirits can develop.
Would you wait for better times and hope you or someone else doesn't wake up with a knife in the chest when the attitude goes too far?
Well said, Balamm
The way I look at it is Balaam.
Boot camp supporters should ask themselves this question
If I did that job and I meet a girl in a pub, would I tell her what I did?
And balaam if you think bullying a child till He/She breaks and then telling Him/Her "You did great" Builds character then your point of view has to come from an unintelligent upbrinning
Where the genepool is but a mule ride down the mountain.
Apart from the fact that "Boot Camps" are illegal in the United Kingdom for more reasons than anyone would care to list.
Neil.
Edit : Maybe now I deserve to be on your shit list.
Didnt Dr Spock admit he was wrong?
A child needs to know and understand where the line is drawn, and must know he/she'll be punished for crossing it.
The UK seems to think that sending dilinquent kids on holiday as a punishment is the right idea. Bullshit. It teaches them that they get REWARDED for doing wrong. :angry:
If they had been doing stuff like that when i'd been growing up, i assure you i would have been shoplifting and vandalising too....I could have done with a few holidays <_<
They also need to be appreciated when they do good. THIS also seems to be missing in society...recognition and praise when something is done well.
Neither punishment nor praise will work by themselves, they must be used together and consistantly.
Above all, kids should be loved....and KNOW they are loved.
[/QUOTE]
Rat Face
Absolutely.Quote:
A child needs to know and understand where the line is drawn, and must know he/she'll be punished for crossing it.
or how will they cope a s adults.
I think the line between abuse and holidays has already been drawn so the point is at best provocativeQuote:
The UK seems to think that sending dilinquent kids on holiday as a punishment is the right idea. Bullshit. It teaches them that they get REWARDED for doing wrong. :angry:
Just because the military saves peoples arses does not excuse screaming at a defenceless child untill it has a breakdown.Quote:
If they had been doing stuff like that when i'd been growing up, i assure you i would have been shoplifting and vandalising too....I could have done with a few holidays <_<
So what lessons about control will these kids contribute to a healthy society.Quote:
They also need to be appreciated when they do good. THIS also seems to be missing in society...recognition and praise when something is done well.
At least you understand nurture is better for our children.Quote:
Neither punishment nor praise will work by themselves, they must be used together and consistantly.
Above all, kids should be loved....and KNOW they are loved.
Neil
Neil__
We seem to be at cross purposes.
UK does NOT do Boot Camp.
However, Social Services in many local authorities seem to have got the idea that taking delinquents on holiday (and i mean holiday..sailing etc) helps them become model citizens.
They then seem surprised that the kids enjoy them that much, they activly break the law when the next "holiday" is due...in order to "win" a place on it.
This is totally seperate to Borstal (which is probably the closest UK has to Boot Camp) which is restricted to youths that are consistantly violent/delinquent.
Which way the kids go, tends to depend on their postcode....like so much else in the UK.
If you push as to which i prefer...
One is too harsh, the other too soft.
If pushed though....well a punishment should be just that.
A punishment....it should, in no circumstances be a reward.
All your points are valid and the "nub" lies in the fact that if you run out of ideas then the first thing you have to realise isQuote:
Originally posted by Rat Faced@2 August 2003 - 18:41
Neil__
We seem to be at cross purposes.
UK does NOT do Boot Camp.
However, Social Services in many local authorities seem to have got the idea that taking delinquents on holiday (and i mean holiday..sailing etc) helps them become model citizens.
They then seem surprised that the kids enjoy them that much, they activly break the law when the next "holiday" is due...in order to "win" a place on it.
This is totally seperate to Borstal (which is probably the closest UK has to Boot Camp) which is restricted to youths that are consistantly violent/delinquent.
Which way the kids go, tends to depend on their postcode....like so much else in the UK.
If you push as to which i prefer...
One is too harsh, the other too soft.
If pushed though....well a punishment should be just that.
A punishment....it should, in no circumstances be a reward.
"these future citizens" are still children.
Some are as young as 9 yrs and we all know they wouldn't have coped with borstal.
So you rest my case for me.
Borstal for 9yr olds is child abuse surely?
Neil
Edit : No 9yr old has done so bad as to justify taking that child from it's home to be "Mind fucked" by screeming adults in uniforms
I thought we were talking about children with criminal responsability...teenagers in other words.
At 9, they would never be sent to Borstal.
The MOST that would ever happen, is they would be taken into Local Authority care surely.
I have to confess my ignorance, but im quite sure that the courts have little to no power over children so young.
"Boot Camp" makes me think of "Center for Social Re-education".
And I wouldn't like to be taken there.
Neil
I take it Neil, that you've never been a parent. With no rights under law but all the responsibility.
With all the frustration, heartache, and embarrasment of association with your childs actions but no social or judicial support network.
Don't even get me started on the social services crock, an agency determined to empower these 9 year olds you speak of to destroy their parents lives and property and the lives and property of others with no remorse.
I feel you haven't got the personal insight or experience needed to even begin to understand this topic. Not many people do but they comment all the same.
Another reason I believe for the decline of the parent in our modern society.
These are really not our children any more, we are only to be concerned for their physical care. Any attempt to go beyond that and shape a future adult is shot down when it is observed. Unless it involves expensive vacation resorts and such things, as Rat Faced has noted.
Please don't presume that I have ever wanted children.
So you armchair psychology has no point.
They are all our children and therefore they deserve our protection.Quote:
These are really not our children any more, we are only to be concerned for their physical care. Any attempt to go beyond that and shape a future adult is shot down when it is observed. Unless it involves expensive vacation resorts and such things, as Rat Faced has noted.
Because we have power over them and for no other reason.
Nweil
If you don't want children then what is your purpose in starting this topic? And what right do you have to judge those who take on the responsibilty?
What the hell is this? You have no children. And I'll sure as hell not give you power over mine!Quote:
Because we have power over them and for no other reason.
You'd better give this a little more thought I think, you appear to be doing nothing more than looking for an afirmation of your own misguided views.
Or looking for an arguement.
Your quotes or whatever they are are poor to say the least. I was prepared for at least a bit of educated debate but I doubt you know any more on the subject than what you've seen on some sensationalized news magazine in in a tabloid.
My breeding potential has nothing to do with the protection of children.Quote:
Originally posted by balamm@2 August 2003 - 21:53
If you don't want children then what is your purpose in starting this topic? And what right do you have to judge those who take on the responsibilty?
What the hell is this? You have no children. And I'll sure as hell not give you power over mine!Quote:
Because we have power over them and for no other reason.
You'd better give this a little more thought I think, you appear to be doing nothing more than looking for an afirmation of your own misguided views.
Or looking for an arguement.
Your quotes or whatever they are are poor to say the least. I was prepared for at least a bit of educated debate but I doubt you know any more on the subject than what you've seen on some sensationalized news magazine in in a tabloid.
And not having children doesn't exclude me from that responsibility.
As I have stated before your arguments aren't rounded in a way that shows any real intelligent thought.
balamm if you look a little further then you will see that I only took to task those who abuse the "privalage"
Neil
Edit : I have the responsibility to protect your children in your absence
Even though we don't get on.
And if you would chose that everyone turns their back on your kids when thay need help
Then "TOUGH"
I won't protect them for you
I'll protect them because they need help.
Neil
;) I wonder if this boot camp is as bad as you are saying it is? I do not think a nine year old belongs in them, but a last ditch effort with a teenager.....I would send my child to one if their behavior put both themselves or others in danger.
I married a man who had adopted, along with his since deceased wife, two children from social services. His wife and he were foster parents for severely handicapped children at the time of the adoption. One child was the product of a schizophrenic mother on street drugs who didn't know she was even pregnant and went to the hospital for stomach pains. She said the father was a drummer from a band in the midwest. James weighed one lb, ten ounces at his birth, at twenty six weeks. He is a survivor, though, and although crippled with cerebral palsey, and deaf from birth, he learned to bath, make his own bed, clean his own room, put his own clothes up and dress himself. James is a joy to anyone that meets him. So special. He is now, at age 25, living in a group home 60 miles away from us,. and we see him often.
The little girl.....Patty, was the sweetest, most charming little red haired imp you would ever meet. She was severly abused as an infant and was removed from her home. Put in foster care. Put back in the home, came back out with cigarette burns and failure to thrive. Placed with foster parents once again. Was adopted at 3 years of age by my husband and his wife. Two years later her adoptive mother died of a heart attack during surgery to remove her gallbladder. Another bond broke.
I became a part of these childrens lives when they were eleven. (What can I say.....I fell in love with little James) :D
Patty was the challenge of my life. When you think about it....a failure to thrive infant is extremely strong willed. However, I had a teenage son myself and I had learned you don't break that will. You work around it guide it, shape it, support and love it.......you try to break a will, the will only gets stronger, but you may destroy the spirit. Nothing in my previous experience ever prepared me for a child that would not respond to love and guidance. Nothing.
By the time she was 12, she not only was in counseling, but so were her father and myself. We felt like failures. Nothing we did worked, and she was in tremendous trouble constantly at school, with her friends and siblings. I am not talking your run of the mill trouble. I am talking setting fires in the house, drowning a cat in the pool, and I will never forget the time I walked into the kitchen and she had her cousin on the floor, sitting on top of her with a butcher knive at her cousins chest and a wild crazed look in her eyes.
My husband had requested help with Patty constantly from SRS. He was at his wits end, not only feeling like he had failed but that anything he tried just didn't work with Patty. We loved that girl and still do. The school was constantly suspending her, we had to spend 3 hours a night with her on homework, and then she sometimes tore it up or lost it on the bus ride to school. Please remember, their were four other children in the household.
I was in a very serious wreck at about that time, and had a severe concussion, three herniated disks, etc. I was self employed and back at work within a week, I had no choice due to financial reasons. Patty's care fell to her father, who was already at his wits end. We begged social services to place her in a therapeutic foster home. We were told they didn't have those in our state.
My husband turned the tide on social services and petitioned the court that Patty was a child in need of care. (This pissed SRS off, because they are the ones that usually do this....and remove a child from it's home.) During the trial my husband relayed her history, her behavior and how deeply we loved her. But he also said she needed help that try as we might, we could not give her. We felt like such failures. It killed me. I tried to testify, but could not stop crying. Our psychologist said that in his opinion, our home was where Patty was best off. The court placed her in a temporary foster home and we stayed incontact and paid the state child support for her. We insisted she be given further testing,as we had new evidence that her natural parents were both on drugs and alcoholics. She was diagnosed with fetal alcohol syndrome. Attention deficit disorder, and on and on. FAS's main symptom is imability to learn from experience.
Patty was moved to about 10 different foster homes in the next 3 years, with all of them not being able to handle her. At 16, she ran away with her boyfriend due to pregnancy. We basically went under cover, went to the large city where she was last seen and tracked her down. We brought both her and her boyfriend back to our small city and they lived with us and went back to high school. The boy, we learned to love, too. He has since graduated from high school and college and has custody of their little boy. Patty decided, right before giving birth to their son, that she was bored with this town and they took off again. Since then, we have kept as close contact as we can with her. She has three children by three different fathers and has been deeply involved in drugs.
At this time, she seems to be holding a job and with a very nice young man with his own home and who loves her. We hope all remains well, but know that she will always have love totally messed up in her head. I remember when she would beg me to hit her.....she knew I was mad, why didn't I just hit her???? I never could. You see, she only knew abuse as love as an infant and a toddler. I never would have guessed this could not be turned around with the right kind of love and care, but my experience with little Patty have shattered my beliefs.
Balaam seems to have a lot of insight to the simple fact that there are some children that boot camp would help. I agree with him. Oftimes though no fault of their own, often for various reasons.
I don't believe boot camp would legally be able to lay a hand on a child. SRS wouldn't let them, would they? As it is, in the states, a child can only be spanked on their bottoms with a hand. I would imagine that SRS refers a lot of these kids to boot camps because parent after parent after parent could not handle them. I would be very angry if it is true, and they are so abused. And very shocked.
But Neil, you really have no clue until you have walked half a life with such a troubled child. No clue. And to be quite honest, I didn't either before Patty.
Neverose (sorry about the length of this post.)
I know that in some cases, SRS can help a troubled child. During the thick of this, I requested a home visitor to help me see if there was anything I could do different, any ideas, etc., that would help me help Patty.
She got to meet the other children in the family and saw my interaction with all the children in the family in a very real way. She actually, I was told later....learned a lot from me. ;) I liked her, just kind of had trouble taking advice about child raising from a woman who still let her nine year old son sleep with her every night!! :D
Like I said some children are easily broken and re-educated.
And if that's your only measure of success then I am full of pity
Neil
It's good to know I'm not alone in my experiences Neverose. I have had the nightly task of counting the kitchen knives and driving all over town trying to find someone who dosen't want to be found.
Of pleading to the courts to protect the rest of the family. And the troubled child. Unfortunately, Where I live, a 14 year old cannot be told where to live or be made to follow any laws of common sense whatsoever. They are even allowed to move in with an older male of any age with the full knowledge that it is a sexual affair. What happens in the home, any home cannot be questioned in this case. Outrageous but true.
The police won't act to protect the family or the child even with death threats, drugs, and alcohol abuse involved.
If the parents don't care(their excuse) and the courts don't care, why should they?
In cases where they do take action, most parents scuttle any proceedings to try and protect the family name or avoid further embarasment anyway.
Having people who know nothing of raising a child involved in social programs or making legislation (or just making noise) makes matters worse. Kids that might have turned out somewhat ok now come home with "dial 911" engrained so deeply into their underdeveloped thought processes that a parent can't even look sternly in their direction anymore.
I've lived in Neils ideal world and have the nightmares and scars to show for it.
I guess Neil, my point is not all parents of troubled children abuse these children or let them be abused 'by proxy' But I can honestly tell you that if they had these boot camps in our area, when Patty was still in our care......we would have gone to this boot camp and checked it out thoroughly, and if we liked what we saw, we would have sent her in hopes she could learn self discipline.
From what I have read of these camps, they are physically challenging and very structured. I daresay, if children are abused in them,, they would be shut down, and SRS would be sued right and left for allowing children to be sent there.
Neil, you sound like a very carring chap, and I would encourage you to continue and reach out to help every child you can in anyway. But please realize, not all children will want you to.
Sorry balamm you seem to be going of topic againQuote:
Originally posted by balamm@2 August 2003 - 23:54
It's good to know I'm not alone in my experiences Neverose. I have had the nightly task of counting the kitchen knives and driving all over town trying to find someone who dosen't want to be found.
Of pleading to the courts to protect the rest of the family. And the troubled child. Unfortunately, Where I live, a 14 year old cannot be told where to live or be made to follow any laws of common sense whatsoever. They are even allowed to move in with an older male of any age with the full knowledge that it is a sexual affair. What happens in the home, any home cannot be questioned in this case. Outrageous but true.
The police won't act to protect the family or the child even with death threats, drugs, and alcohol abuse involved.
If the parents don't care(their excuse) and the courts don't care, why should they?
In cases where they do take action, most parents scuttle any proceedings to try and protect the family name or avoid further embarasment anyway.
Having people who know nothing of raising a child involved in social programs or making legislation (or just making noise) makes matters worse. Kids that might have turned out somewhat ok now come home with "dial 911" engrained so deeply into their underdeveloped thought processes that a parent can't even look sternly in their direction anymore.
I've lived in Neils ideal world and have the nightmares and scars to show for it.
try to calm down and see thing through a clear head.
to answer anyway.
Your commitment as a parent is admirable but if you would be prepared to send one of your children to "Boot Camp" then I see it as my responcibility to STOP you doing that.
Any less would be abandoning your children.
Neil.
You and those like you have ruined more childrens lives than you can imagine you troll. You blather on about the rights of the child of whom you know nothing.
Did it ever occur to you to consider the lives of the other children in the home who are forced to suffer throught this nonsense? Who are raped repeatedly by an older sister or brother, beat, stolen from, lied about. Kids who have no chance for a normal childhood because they have to be on guard every moment of their young lives. Well fuck them cause Neil has a better plan eh?
No, your only purpose is to flame and insult, I suspect you have no real feelings on this subject, no alternatives, no experience, no research.
Any thoughts you might have, it appears, were quickly formulated as yet another desperate way of attracting attention to yourself.
Maybe if you yourself had attended some sort of workshop or camp, you wouldn't feel the need to take such a sensitive topic and cheapen it with your trolling.
You offend me and every parent that has had to live with a problem child. Grin now you dick.
You are the one to be pitied, Neil. Have you no understanding that sticking your head up your ass is the easy way out? There are plenty of parents that do that, and let their kids run wild, control the family and endanger their siblings. That, Neil, is abandoning your child..You do not do this if you truly have that child's best interest at heart.Quote:
Originally posted by Neil__@2 August 2003 - 19:00
Sorry balamm you seem to be going of topic again
try to calm down and see thing through a clear head.
to answer anyway.
Your commitment as a parent is admirable but if you would be prepared to send one of your children to "Boot Camp" then I see it as my responcibility to STOP you doing that.
Any less would be abandoning your children.
Neil.
And who are you to even suggest you know how I measure 'success?"
Live awhile. Then we will talk
Neverose
First and foremost, everyone is entitled to his or her opinion. From what i can see, Neil is stating opposition to the American style 'Boot Camps' for children. I don't understand why this is such a problem.
Balamm, you accuse Neil of insulting you and every parent of a 'problem' child. While i understand your frustration with your 'problem' child, your being such a parent does not give you sole right to comment on the issue.
Neil has not passed judgement on you personally; rather, he has voiced strong opposition to these aforementioned camps. I don't know whether you both have a history of disagreement, but your aggressive response to his posts is quite unsettling. What i find disturbing is that you feel it necessary to refer to emotive subjects, such as rape and child abuse, to win a petty argument, and then resort to name-calling.
Neverose, your essay was very interesting and i respect you greatly for it. I don't however believe that it is relevant to the discussion here. As a Grade G (UK) mental health nurse who has worked in mental health for ten years, including 4 years in an acute admissions ward, it is my educated opinion that to expose abused children, or those with learning disabilities, to further intimidation and fear is counterproductive. The strict regime involved in these camps is not suitable for those with learning disabilities or mental illness.
If a child presents challenging behaviour then maybe a strict disciplined regime might help them. The problem lies in how this discipline would be applied. In no way should it involve intimidation or fear, as this would itself amount to abuse.
Here is an interesting site on the subject. http://www.nospank.net/boot.htm
-Note that it is a collection of articles on the subject and not the site author’s individual view.
Hello liquidacid.Quote:
Originally posted by liquidacid@3 August 2003 - 17:46
As a Grade G (UK) mental health nurse who has worked in mental health for ten years, including 4 years in an acute admissions ward, it is my educated opinion that to expose abused children, or those with learning disabilities, to further intimidation and fear is counterproductive
Would I be right in assuming that you have children of your own? You say that what Neverose had to say was not relevant to this discussion. I cannot disagree more with you on that point. I need to know more about you. You might be a highly qualified nurse, but still lacking in parental experience or responsibility. Perhaps you would be so kind as te clarify?
There is also more than one type of "Boot Camp" for unruly kids, so what is meant by the name "Boot Camp" should be clarified.
There are State run "Boot Camps" which are in essence, a last resort punishment for offenders.
There are also Private Boot Camps, at which parents pay $1000's per month to send their kids, to try and instill some sort of Discipline and recognition from Right/Wrong.......so that they DONT end up in the first type.
If its the 1st type, this is obviously a criticism of a Penal System.
If the 2nd type, then a critcism of people caring enough to pay LOTS of money as a last resort to stop their kids becoming part of the Criminal Classes.
In neither case im sure, would a mentaly disturbed child be placed, if diagnosed as such.....which is a criticism of the Social Services and Medical proffesions (and their Political Masters)
LiquidAcid, thank you for your input on this thread. Your mental health experience is to be admired and respected.
Before I relayed my own experience with troubled children, I reviewed other threads that Neil had posted. My opinion is he has a strong history of 'baiting' Americans, lumping us all together in an action made by a few. That usually would be enough for me to dismiss a post and not lower myself to take the bait.
My lengthy post was really in response to this ignorant generalization by Neil, and to also support Balaam. I should have stated these reasons for my post.
As a medical health nurse, I know you are aware of all the difference in temperment in people. I grew up with these differences pointed out to me on a daily basis as my Mother is a mental health nurse, as you are, and has been for thirty years..
Originally I was put off by Balaam's emotive responses at times on this board, also. But as I watched I understood more. Balaam feels things very deeply. A lot deeper than most people. Whether it be a supposedly 'good' or a 'bad' emotion.....his will always be stronger than the rest of ours. While I was trained to use my brain to temper my emotions, I sometimes wish I could have such passion as Balaam has. He feels deeply and he reacts strongly when a nerve is hit that he feels deeply about. If he is able to remain objective, he does fine.
I read what the internet had to offer, both pro and con on the subject. I do think Balaam and I were both thinking of the therapeutic boot camps where structure, and support and constructive discipline was given to the child. And I don't think sending a child to this type of boot camp would be 'abandoning a child' as Neil suggested.
Sometimes when a parent is living this nightmare, in the thick of it.....there is no place to go with their frustration, anger and resentment. The last think you want to do is respond to an angry out of control child with these emotions. I felt like Balaam needed to release this frustration, having lived it myself. I was fortunate that I had my Mother during this time, and all of her calm wisdom.
I see that Neil knows exactly what he is doing, knows just how to bait Balaam and which strings to pull. Neil's behavior is like a child in that a child needs attention, and if not given, will keep pushing buttons until he receives attention.....even if it is bad attention.
And when we corner him, he disappears....but reappears as at least three other people that I am aware of.
You are right. He is entitled to his opinion, we all are. How boring this board would be if we all answered and conversed in a very non-passionate, calm, manner. Yes, Balaam feels deep and will jump all over those he feels are posting in a detremental way or jeopardizing this board and it's policies in any way. It is because he cares. How refreshing that is.
Okay....enough..... Thanks, Rat Faced for pointing out that a few things need clarified here. He threw the bait, and against my better judgement, I jumped for it. Live and learn, right? Well, hopefully so!!!
Take care, all.
Neverose
Had you said 'some Americans' instead of 'American Parents' in your original statement, Neil, I could believe this. And I could also believe your intentions were as innocent as you are trying to portray them to be. ;)Quote:
Originally posted by Neil__@2 August 2003 - 17:35
balamm if you look a little further then you will see that I only took to task those who abuse the "privalage"
Neil
Is he? Normally, when such a topic is started in this section of the forum, the person who poses it is expected to give some background, refferences, reasons, alternatives, something more than "Americans are abusing their children and I don't like it".Quote:
Originally posted by liquidacid@3 August 2003 - 16:46
First and foremost, everyone is entitled to his or her opinion. From what i can see, Neil is stating opposition to the American style 'Boot Camps' for children. I don't understand why this is such a problem.
Are the facts that lead a parent to a decision of strong action not permitted?Quote:
What i find disturbing is that you feel it necessary to refer to emotive subjects, such as rape and child abuse, to win a petty argument, and then resort to name-calling.
Are the details that led to my decision to take strong action with my child not permitted?
My surviving children were both sexually assualted and physically abused by their older sister beginning at age 4 or earlier. Would they also be subject to your rath if they spoke of it?
If I didn't have the knowledge, or first hand knowledge to comment, then I would hope to be responsible enough to know that I had no business passing judgement on those who do.
It's not about winning an arguement. It's about pointing out irresponsible or baseless comments that have the potential to harm others; parents or children.
Look a bit deeper at the range of topics posted by Neil over the past day or two and you will see that he is clearly trying to provoke anti americanism.
I am not American but I still have a problem with this attitude. As I'm sure others might have if I started as many anti British or Europian topics.
I had no thoughts about Neil one way or other before this. As I've said before, he holds himself in too high regard in this matter.
A troll is a troll though and I will point that out in any case!
Your own thoughts on the debate are more thoughtfull and informed however and what I had hoped to see more of in this thread.
I've been in a Belgian juvenile halls couple of time when I was a kid.
Twice in one of them.
I think you can compare it to jail, really.
It will do some good for some, but it will also make some kids even more rebellious.
(I was one of those)
Still, most of the times, it's the only option parents have to have a normal life.
You're not even allowed to spank your kid, so what should you do if he burns your house down? Call your insurance, and build a new one? And another one, and another one?
Although I hated it down there, it has its good side too.
If only one kid gets saved from a life of crime, it's a good thing.
Means justify the manner then.
Just get rid of the powerhungry guards in there, they only make things worse.
Lock up makes a kid think.
In extreme cases isolation cells can even be a solution, but they should abolish the beatings IMO.
Just my 2 p.
hehQuote:
Originally posted by Neil__@1 August 2003 - 20:56
Or is it the American parents' choice.
To Abuse their CHILDREN by proxy
Neil.
been there
done that
:) Good for England. Now if only they were illegal in America that would be great.Quote:
Originally posted by Neil__@2 August 2003 - 16:08
"Boot Camps" are illegal in the United Kingdom
Boot camps?
Like everything else, some work, some don't.
There are, regardless of the naysayers, instances in which an emotional/mental/developmental "reset" button needs to be pushed; boot camps are a manifestation of this need.
There has been a rash of instances in which results have been very much less than satisfactory, and obviously these situations need to be policed better, but it must be noted these don't constitute "all" boot camps; not even close (don't ask me for numbers, I'm confident I know what I'm talking about, so I frankly don't care what the naysayers think)-suffice it to say, you can count on hearing about the negatives, and just as surely you won't be regaled with the success stories, as they lack that certain "newsworthiness" we have been conditioned to look for.
As for anyone choosing off Balaam on this subject, please do him (and the rest of us) a favor and go fuck yourselves.
Some of us know how to carry on without getting carried away, and your name does not appear on our roster, so dump the personal stuff.
'nuff said.
Often, those who end up at 'boot camps' are nothing better than vicious bullying thugs, or at least heading in that direction. 'Normal' methods of rectifying their behaviour have failed, and something needs to be done to make them realise how unpleasant their behaviour is.
They often think that nothing too unpleasant is going to happen to them no matter how badly they behave, and something has to be done to change this belief.
J2 rightly points out that correct running of these establishments is not going to attract the attention of the media, while the few errant places are brought to full attention. It is right that the bad ones are exposed, but indiscriminate reporting often gives the impression that the whole system is 'rotten to the core'.
Of course there are some bad people working in these places, they are part of society and there are bad people in society, screening probably reduces the number of undesirables but some determined people will always slip the net. This doesn't mean we should get rid of the good ones too. The phrase 'throwing baby out with the bath water' springs to mind.
I would favor the use of a reasonably well-compensated but very low-profile "ombudsman/observer" in every camp; but we're talking exceptional people here; hard to find.
Some of the low-ball financial aspects of these camps are dead-giveaways as to their ends, also, and this fact is ignored in many cases.
A commissar? Why, j2, I never would've thought.
:ninja: